A messianic jewish rabbi sent this to me its makes good sense.
The symbols in Revelation can be difficult at times, so let's go to the seals and answer the question of "wrath": Are the seals of Revelation 6 the wrath of HaShem?
For the pretribulationist, the entire 70th week of Daniel is the wrath of HaShem. That therefore means the Seals, the Trumpets and the Bowls are all the wrath of HaShem. But, is that an accurate understanding?
For several reasons, the Seals cannot be a part of the wrath of HaShem spoken of so frequently in Scripture:
I. The Historical Argument
In the times before the advent of the modern usage of books and after the use of cuneiform writing and papyri, scrolls were used as the medium for recording most information. Scrolls were most often vellum (leather) or some form of rolled paper. To keep the contents of the scroll from the eyes of those for whom it was not intended, the scrolls were sealed with one or more seals, usually of wax.
The seals were always on the outside of the scroll, never on the inside where they would be encountered as one unrolled the scroll. That means that all the seals must be broken BEFORE the contents can be exposed. This is the picture we have in Revelation 5 where we are introduced to the scroll. In Revelation 6, we have the breaking of the seals of the scroll. Its only when the seventh seal is broken, (all seven) that the contents of the scroll can be exposed. Therefore, since the wrath of HaShem begins with the breaking of the seventh seal, (note: Revelation 8:1ff) the seals cannot be the wrath of HaShem.
II. The Biblical/Logical Argument
The question needs to be asked, "If the entire 70th week of Daniel is the wrath of HaShem (as pretribulationalists insist), why are believers who are promised exemption from the Day of the Lord's wrath (1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9 - note: "all" believers of any age) present during this time?" (cf. Rev. 12:17; 13:7) There must be a division during the 70th week where believers are present and then absent as promised.
1. In Revelation 12 the reader is in an interlude that begins with chapter 12:1 and concludes with chapter 15:4. The focus for this interlude is the midpoint of the 70th week. In Rev. 12:12, we are instructed regarding the casting out of heaven of the devil who "has come down...having great wrath" In 12:17 and 13:7, we are clearly told that the wrath of Satan is subsequently poured out on the "saints", those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua." In other words, during the time of Satan's wrath when Antichrist exalts himself, he persecutes the saints. Clearly, there are two wraths spoken of (during the 70th week of Daniel) and it's during the wrath of Satan (through Antichrist) when believers are persecuted. Satan's wrath is depicted in the fourth and fifth seals and prior to the Day of the Lord's wrath which begins with the breaking of the seventh seal.
2. In Isaiah 2:11 and Ezekiel 38:23, HaShem tells us that He alone will be exalted in the day of His judgment (that begins with the 1st Trumpet). In 2 Thes. 2, Paul explains that the "man of lawlessness" (Antichrist) will exalt himself just prior to the "day of the Lord" (2:2). That poses a problem:
A. If HaShem is going to exalt Himself during the day of the Lord, Antichrist cannot exalt himself at the same time, and
B. If the entire 70th week is the wrath of HaShem, then how is it possible that Antichrist exalts himself during the time that is supposed to be when HaShem exalts Himself? The answer is, he can't and doesn't. Therefore, we must conclude that there must be two time periods in view within the 70th week of Daniel: (1) when Antichrist exalts himself, and (2) when HaShem exalts Himself. Since HaShem exalts Himself during His Day of the Lord wrath (which begins with the breaking of the seventh seal), the seals, which precede the time of HaShem's wrath, cannot be included in the time period when HaShem alone exalts Himself.
3. In Revelation 6, we are introduced to the seals of the scroll (ch. 5). The 6th seal is clearly marked by the oft-repeated indication of the imminent Day of the Lord, the wrath of HaShem. (cf. Joel 2:10,31; 3:15: Matthew 24:29) In Revelation 6:12, we see the appearance of this "announcement" of the onset of the God's Day of the Lord wrath at the 6th seal. Following the 6th seal is the 7th which is opened beginning in chapter 8. Between Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 8:1 is Revelation chapter 7. In Revelation 7 we see clearly that the rapture takes place. (Note: 7:9-17) - sometime during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. It is important to note that the wrath of HaShem doesnąt begin until the 7th seal is opened (Rev. 8:1) This ushers in the 7 Trumpet judgments, the wrath of HaShem spoken of in Revelation 6:17. His wrath begins with the 1st Trumpet judgment, not the seals.
4. A final note is that in the first three seals, the disasters are more of a natural phenomenon. Beginning with the Trumpet judgments, they are clearly of a supernatural nature, effected by angels and usually associated with fire.
Although Messiah is clearly in control of all the end-time events, it is equally clear that the wrath of HaShem does not begin with the seals. The world will run its course (albeit, in an intensified way once the 70th week begins) right up to the sign of the sun, moon and stars when the natural lights of the universe will go out. Following this event will be the worldwide visible return of the Lord for His own (cf. Matthew 24:29-31), and then the Day of the Lord, the wrath of HaShem, will begin.
Not to me. I call this setting up a straw man so he can be knocked down. I am a pretribulationist, and I have the good sense to let the scriptures tell me when God's Wrath comes. I'd NEVER say it began at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel/Tribulation. After the 6th seal breaks in Rev. 6:12, Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand? Right then, it is 6 PM, when this age ends and the millennial Day of the Lord begins. It is OBVIOUS that God's wrath is poured out on unbelievers after the 7th seal breaks in Rev. 8.
In the Tribulation circle clock, the 7 trumpet judgments come out of the 7th seal, and the 7 vials come out of the 7th trumpet. It is true that there is a Rapture that first day of the Millennium. It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." At the Pre-Trib Rapture, these were not wearing white wedding garments. They had to figure out what to do to make their robes white. In the meantime, they had to suffer through 2300 days of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:12). If they had used I Jn. 1:9 before the Pre-Trib Rapture, they would have been better off.
God's wrath under the 2nd and 3rd trumpet judgments hit Earth at NOON on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. After the 6th seal is broken, Zeph. 1:14 says, "The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." Verses 15-18 says, "That day is a DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the TRUMPET (Feast of Trumpets) and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers (of OWG and UR at Babylon). And I will bring distress upon men...because they have sinned against the LORD...Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's WRATH." In Zeph. 2:3-5, it says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (i.e., raptured) in the day of the LORD's anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod AT THE NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."
Job 20:23 says, "When he (the wicked one, the False Prophet) is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating" (i.e., at noon).
Amos 8:9 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at NOON, and I will darken the earth in the clear day."
The Pre-Wrath Rapture must take place before noon. It is most likely during the preceding night.
> > all the seals must be broken BEFORE the contents can be exposed
That is human reasoning. The Bible explains what happens as each of the seals is broken in turn. It does not wait until the 7th to tell us everything at once.
> > the sign of the sun, moon and stars when the natural lights of the universe will go out. Following this event will be the worldwide visible return of the Lord for His own (cf. Matthew 24:29-31), and then the Day of the Lord, the wrath of HaShem, will begin.
Mt. 24:29-31 takes us no farther than the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (6th seal): And then shall appear the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven (they look up, the clouds roll back like a scroll and the see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky, Rev. 6:14f): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (however, he does not arrive for 7 more months, Eze. 39:12,13). And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the 'last trump' of God heard at the Pre-Wrath Rapture), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."
The people who were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture at the first trump (II Thess. 4:16) are gathered from the ends of Heaven to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus" (Heb. 12:23,24).
The Tribulation saints are gathered from the Earth at the same time. Mk. 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those who were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
After the saints are all present at the general assembly, there is silence both on Earth and in Heaven while the judge is being seated. Rev. 8:1 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." Hab. 2:20 says, "the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Then the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place. The saints, small and great, are rewarded in Heaven as the unbelievers on Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Agape
I think the Pre-Trib Rapture is for the Bride group only, but that the 144,000 Israelites will be added to that group at the Pr-Wrath Rapture. In Rev. 14, they are said to be virgins and without fault before the throne of God.
It seems that there is a number associated with the Bride group. The 24 elders represent the Bride at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The 5 wise virgins do too. The 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride group at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Most of the others caught up at the 2nd Rapture are that great multitude that no one can number in Rev. 7:9. That leaves me wondering about the 5 foolish virgins. I just know that the Lord is fair. Each of us will get exactly what we deserve. There are last that will be first and first that will be last.
John 3:29 shows that the apostles are in the Bride group. It says, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Christ is the Bridegroom, so I think the wise virgins are also part of the Bride group.
In II Cor. 11:2, Paul said, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN to Christ." Agape
What scriptures do you base this on? I've always thought New Jerusalem was a cube. Revelation 21 says:
On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Are there other scriptures you are thinking of in determining that it is a sphere? Just curious. God Bless
Some think the heavenly city is a cube because it "lieth foursquare." However, Scripture also speaks of the "four corners of the earth" or "the four wings of the earth" and we have photos of Earth. It is a sphere.
The references to the four corners of the Earth merely indicate the four quarters of the Earth. In Rev. 7:1, "gonias" is translated "corners," but it also means quarters and is so translated in Rev. 10:8, which mentions "the four quarters of the earth." This describes the astronomical sign of the Earth so well. It is a circle divided into quarters.
According to Josephus, when Israel camped around the Tabernacle in the wilderness, the priests were closest to the Tabernacle. Around it were the other tribes, all camping in concentric circles with roads between the rows. This pictures the heavenly planet well. Three tribes could camp on the north in a curve as easily as in a straight line. Agape
I value your opinions, and appreciate your opinion on this matter. I see that those who do not agree with your assessments are gathering at your door, with sharpened teeth. Keep up your good work, and know that there are also those who need and support you. Agape
> > The Sabbath, which meant Rest to the Jew, became a verb to the Church - Sabbathing - as we are to rest in the work of Christ - He did it all - there is nothing left for us to do except to have FAITH. Faith being an action, based upon a belief and sustained by confidence in God's word.
NOTHING LEFT TO DO? I suspect that the foolish virgins and Laodiceans think the exact same thing. What is a "CASTAWAY"? and what is the PRIZE Paul was working for? Is the foolish virgin a castaway when Christ comes for his Bride? Is the Laodicean that gets spewed out of Christ's mouth a castaway?
In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul said, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the PRIZE? SO RUN THAT YE MAY OBTAIN. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible CROWN; but we an incorruptible (awarded the Bride of Christ). I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." Paul could not get unsaved. How could he be a castaway?
In Phil. 3:14, Paul shows us what the PRIZE is that he was working for. He said, "I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus." This is when Christ says, "COME UP HITHER" at the first Rapture. He calls his Bride up to be with him where he is. Do you realize that the record does not show that Christ says, "Come up hither" to the Tribulation saints? They appear in Heaven before the throne, but how do they get there?
Mk. 13:26,27 tells us. It says, "then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30, not the Second Advent, which is 7 mo. future, Eze. 39:12). And then shall he SEND HIS ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Bride was caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture). All the saints are gathered that day for the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place that day.
So what does a believer need to do to get ready for the "HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus"? How can he be sure that he has enough oil of the Spirit of Christ to keep his lamp burning brightly, so he can go up when Christ calls "Come up hither" when he comes as the Bridegroom to get his Bride? Read I John 1:9. If we confess our known sins, he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. The Bride must wear white.
At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the 144,000 are "virgins...without fault before the throne of God. They seem to be added to the Bride group. The martyrs are given white robes. All the rest of the Tribulation saints will "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). Why did they have to wash their robes? Why were they not caught up in the first Rapture?
The foolish Laodicean virgins can learn their lesson the easy way, using I John 1:9 now, or they can learn their lesson the hard way during the Tribulation. Either way, they must learn this lesson.
> > Now, Hosea says that, "my people are lost because of a lack of knowledge"! Don't let that happen - get informed!
Yea, "get informed." Agape, Marilyn
I have a comment/question. From my Bible studies I would have to ascertain that satan does not or should not have any more guidance as to the timing of end time events any more than we do. Therefore, all the Bible references including the fig tree, signs in the sun, moon and constellations and world conditions must be known as well by satan and he in turn would have to "interpret" them too. Additionally, satan would have to arrange for the birth of the false prophet to coincide with the "Rapture". The false prophet would need to be in the correct age range, somewhere between 30 and 40 + years of age when the Rapture event takes place. Therefore the reference in Luke 21:29-36 regarding the fig tree and "this generation" has to be so very significant and we should view a generation as 40 years, not variable as far as 40, 60, 70, 80 or even 100 years as many Bible prophesy authors/interpreters believe it could be. Your thoughts on this?
Thanks Marilyn. And by the way, I do have to share that on Saturday, August the 12th, I was driving Westbound on the 101 freeway in the Calabassas, CA area, when a beautiful all white dove flew across the freeway! Regards, Agape
A white dove sounds beautiful. I just see white in the wings when the gray ones fly.
I think the 40 years of probation is 40 years. In 30 AD, when Jesus told the Pharisees in Mt. 23:36, "All these things shall come upon this generation," they did, in 70 AD. Agape
Also scripture is very clear that the first resurrection is after the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4-5). So when is the Wrath of God?
For many years I have studied the scripture - NOT MAN's TEACHING about the Scripture. This last year the Lord has now released me to study other sources since I am now better prepared to discern - test all spirits.
A Question I ask many and few answer. When do you know you are deceived? There is but one answer!!! You don't know.
Mat 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. -- and Paul said 2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Therefore as saints we must always be nobel as the Bereaians were Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
We must always receive the Word with readiness and test OUR knowledge with the scripture so not to be Deceived - EVEN if it should change a stance of many years. This is the Spirit of God, otherwise it becomes the spirit of Pride.
In July I received a book..."The Prewrath Rapture Position Explained"...The one scripture I found to be most enlightening is ISA 2:11,17. Which proclaims that God ALONE will be exalted..." and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day."
Praise God for sending Jesus - Truth - The Word. Love in Christ
That's easy. The 6th seal is broken on the last day of this age, then at 6 PM, Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The wrath of God is poured out after the 7th seal breaks. The 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth that 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The asteroids hit at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).
> > Also scripture is very clear that the first resurrection is after the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4-5)
The first resurrection started in 30 AD with Christ, the Head of the Body of Christ. It proceeds in ranks. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the next rank (first trump of God, I Thess. 4:16), and the Pre-Wrath Rapture is the last rank ("last trump," I Cor. 15:51,52). I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Christ was the Firstfruit, singular. The Bride is the firstfruits, plural. After that, everyone that calls on the name of the Lord will be caught up just before the wrath of God falls on unbelievers.
The Tribulation saints are spewed out of Christ's mouth at the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 3:16). Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off, i.e., the 10 virgins are divided in halves), and will appoint him (the unwise servant, the foolish virgin) his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:14) with the unbelievers."
I went to the Pre-Wrath Rapture site you mentioned and mailed the following page to myself. Here are some excerpts and my comments. http://www.signministries.org/signministries/charts/rapttiming.htm
> > Christ, in the Olivet Discourse, taught that after the sun, moon, and stars go out, "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,... and He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31).
Robert Van Kampen failed to see if there were other scriptures that would help explain this. He should have read Mk. 13:27. It says, "And then shall HE SEND HIS ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Did you get that? Jesus will not at that time say, "Come up hither." He will "SEND HIS ANGELS." He says, "Come up hither" to the Bride of Christ in Rev. 4:1. He sends his angels on the Day of God's Wrath.
At the first trump (I Thess. 4:13-18), Jesus will come himself for his Bride. He will say, "Come up hither" to the Bride of Christ, the wise virgins and the Philadelphians, who do not have to be told to repent, they already have.
At the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52), the angels will gather the "harvest of the earth" (Rev. 14:15) to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God (Christ, the Almighty, Rev. 1:8) the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). John 5:22 says, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." All the saints are gathered, from both Heaven and Earth, to the Judgment Seat of Christ. The saints "small and great" (Rev. 11:18) will receive their rewards at the same time that the unbelievers on Earth have the wrath of God cast on them.
> > Paul confirms the sequence thus far in his second epistle to the Thessalonians (2:1-4): > > The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together with Him" (v.1) and "the day of the Lord" (v.2) "will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness [Antichrist] is revealed" (v.3). He will take "his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God [the midpoint of the 70th Week, thus beginning the Great Tribulation]" (v.4).
Robert Van Kampen does not understand this passage correctly. The Greek words "he apostasia" should be translated "the departing," as they were in early Bibles, The Geneva Bible, Tyndals's translation, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. It means departing in the Pre-Trib Rapture before the wicked False Prophet is revealed. It is similar to "apostacion," divorcement, when one party departs from his ex-spouse. It is also similar to "apospao," to draw away." In I Thess. 2:3, the Rapture comes "first," then the wicked one is revealed as he and the Beast confirm the covenant as the Tribulation begins. Agape
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