Pro and Con 578

Posted 6-22-00

Incoming email

Re: Signs of the End Times. Sent 8-22-00 7:40 AM
I wanted to share a beautiful sight I saw on the moon. I was having a quiet time reading the Bible when I decided to look up to heaven. I saw the most beautiful display of a bright and shiny "CROSS" on the moon. I couldn't believe it so I called my sister and my nephews to make sure I wasn't seeing visions. When they got to my room to look at the moon, they were amazed like I had been. I feel that was a sign from God to the world. God is wonderful and I have had other wonderful encounters, but that is another story. God Bless, Brother in Christ

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. I sure wish I had been looking at that time. Hope the astronomers got a picture of it. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Well here it is
New York, 17 (NE) The "UN News" informed in its latest edition that a "World Summit of Spiritual Leaders and Religious for Peace" will start on August 28 in New York, convened by the United Nations (UN). The "United Initiative of Religions", a group which "condemns the traditional notion of Christian evangelization" is in charge of organizing the summit. The UIR, meant to be the spiritual arm of the UN, "declares itself to be against the 'dogmatic' religions, as promoters of 'fundamentalism', as well as in favor of abortion, sexual freedom for adolescents, legalization of homosexual unions and against the 'unsustainable' population growth". The agency also indicates the search for a "new ethical code" that, based on the New Age syncretism, can serve as the "spiritual foundation of the new world order".

Incoming email

we can agree to disagree... but you cannot put western thinking in to a hebrew mind... and with out full understanding of what the prophets were speaking about, in their terminology in their day... one will end up with egg on his face... and MOST pretribulationists believe the whole trib is wrath... maybe not you (I personally dont believe in two raptures God is more effeciant then that, dont you think? :)and as far as the seals are concerned that is how they were opened in Johns day... its not human reasoning, (I dont think) its not wanting to listen to REASON (I think) from the prophets prespective.

My reply

We can agree to disagree, but with all the advantages an Israelite has, why end up with egg on your face. It isn't western thinking. It is Jewish thinking. Almost the whole Bible was written by Abraham's descendants. Yeshua was Jewish, descended from Abraham through Isaac and David. All of the apostles were Jewish, including Paul. John was Jewish.

> > I personally dont believe in two raptures God is more effeciant then that, dont you think?

I don't think we have the right to decide that God is more efficient than that. We are to read Scripture to see what he said he would do. What he said he would do, he will do.

Yeshua used John as a scribe to record an outline of end-of-the-age events for us in "the Rrevelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that he could show his servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending his angel to his servant Yochanan (John)...Blessed are the reader and hearers of the words of this prophecy, provided they obey the things written in it! For THE TIME IS NEAR!" (Rev. 1:1-3 in the Complete Jewish Bible). Yeshua used as the setting for this book, the time when the Pre-Trib Rapture is near. It is near in the first and last chapters, Rev. 1:3 and 22:10. He signs off with, "Yes, I am coming soon!" We have NOW arrived at that time. The Pre-Trib Rapture is soon.

Yeshua calls his Bride up at the Pre-Trib Rapture, when he personally says, "COME UP HERE" in Rev. 4:1. In Heaven around the throne are the 24 elders (the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of Israel). They are the representatives of the whole group who are in Heaven at that moment, "persons from every tribe, language, people and nation" (Rev. 5:9). "You made (past tense) them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will (future tense) rule OVER the earth" (v. 10).

This smaller group is in Heaven before the throne just before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6.

Later, after the 6th seal is broken, we see another group in Heaven. They include the 144,000 Israelites and "a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Rev. 7:9). Verse 14 says that this huge crowd "are the people who have come out of Great Persecution."

This huge group is in Heaven before the throne just before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8.

These cannot both be talking about the same Rapture. They take place at two different times. Scripture shows that there are 2 Raptures, one Pre-Trib and the other Pre-Wrath. I take Yeshua at his word. I believe there will be 2 Raptures. I don't see how one can escape seeing it if they take Yeshua at his word.

Referring to the time of the "Great Persecution," In Mk. 13.23-27, Yeshua said, "But you, watch out! I have told you everything in advance! In those days, after that trouble, the sun will grow dark, the moon will stop shining, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man (Yeshua) coming in clouds with tremendous power and glory. He will send out his ANGELS and gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the ends of HEAVEN" (those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture."

Yeshua himself says, "COME UP HERE" to those caught up in the 1st Rapture. He does NOT say this to the Tribulation saints. He sends his angels to gather every saint to the "FESTIVE ASSEMBLY; to a community of the firstborn whose names have been recorded in heaven; to a Judge (Yeshua) who is God of everyone; to spirits of righteous people who have been brought to the goal; to the mediator of a new covenant, Yeshua" (Messianic Jews, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Yeshua says, "COME UP HERE" when he comes as the Bridegroom coming for his Bride.

He does NOT say "Come up here" to the Tribulation saints. He sends his ANGELS to gather them to the Judgment Seat of Yeshua on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1, 5768/Sept. 13, 2007). Shalom

Incoming email

...I am speaking about the "Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders" on August 28th-31st. This meeting is fundamental to the realisation of the dream of the New Age/New World Order. It represents a quantum leap in the process which began initially with the First Parliament of the World's Religions in 1893. Here is the publicity statement for this event:

On August 28 through August 31, 2000 in the first gathering of its kind, the Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders (opening at the United Nations) will unite several hundred pre-eminent leaders from the world's great religious and faith traditions to pledge a commitment for the achievement of world peace.

The World Peace Summit is being convened to coordinate religious and spiritual leadership as an interfaith ally to the United Nations in its quest for peace, global understanding and international cooperation.

The Summit's outcome - a signed Declaration for World Peace and the establishment of an ongoing International Advisory Council of Religious and Spiritual Leaders - will serve as a resource for the United Nations in its conflict prevention and resolution efforts....

Globalization and new communications technologies have done much to join the economies of countries around the world and to create a growing sense of interconnectedness among people. But these advances have not alleviated the problems that plague humankind. The brutality of war and the despair of poverty are as much a reality today as at any time in the past. Human suffering continues at an intolerable level. To counter these ills, a strong collaboration is needed between the United Nations and the religious and spiritual community.

For this purpose, and to mark the potential of the new millennium, the world's pre-eminent religious and spiritual leaders will be gathering at the United Nations from August 28, 2000 for an historic World Peace Summit. Addressing the world's population through a telecast from the United Nations General Assembly Hall, these revered leaders will demonstrate their united commitment and determination to work together to eliminate the causes that perpetrate violence and lead to war.


"In times of conflict, the world's great religious leaders will together exert moral authority in the zones of conflict to seek non-violent resolutions" -- Bawa Jain, Secretary General, World Peace Summit

Incoming email

I've learned of a new question... If Christ warns us that He will come as a thief, then how does that conclude that His return will be loud? What is your perception of this? Just curious.

My reply

If we watch, he will not come on us as a thief.

I Thess. 5:1-4 says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF."

Jesus warned the churches. Rev. 3:3 says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt NOT WATCH, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Agape

Incoming email

well to me He is the God of the Hebrews first... and this dosnt sound like him or his word (to have a pre tribulation rapture is not Jewish.)... so we can disa gree.. IM NOT pre trib... nor will I ever be but I do enjoy what people post on your site...blessings... ps no matter whatI say you will always find some way to shoot holes in it... so Im not going to dispute scripture... scripture is scripture and dogma is dogma and to error is human only time will tell... :)

My reply

> > this dosnt sound like him or his word

Why not? I quoted out of the Complete Jewish Bible. Do you need to hear it out of the Tanakh to believe it? Yesha'yahu (Isaiah) 57:1,2 (CJB) says, "The righteous person perishes (abad, escapes), and nobody gives it a thought. Godly men are TAKEN AWAY, and no one understands that THE RIGHTEOUS PERSON IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL YET TO COME." The Pre-Trib Rapture is Jewish, but the Lord said, "no one understands." Why does no one understand? Is it because they get a certain mindset and just refuse to see it? Is it because the Pharisees could not discern the times? Are you going by their teachings instead of the teachings of the Tanakh?

In the Brit Hadashah, Mattityahu (Matthew) 16:1-3 (CJB) says, "Then some P'rushim and Tz'sukim came to trap Yeshua by asking him to show tham a miraculous sign from Heaven. But his response was, "When it is evening, you say, 'Fair weather ahead,' because the sky is red; and in the morning you say, 'Storm today!' because the sky is red and overcast. You know how to read the appearance of the sky, but YOU CAN'T READ THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES!"

Isa. 57:1,2 in the Septuagint (LXX) says, "See how the just man has perished, and no one lays it to heart: and RIGHTEOUS MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, and no one considers: for THE RIGHTEOUS HAS BEEN REMOVED OUT OF THE WAY OF INJUSTICE."

It is clear to me. Agape

His reply

Re: Pre-Trib Rapture
you quoted word for word out of the Jewish bible... (word translation) but added YOUR commentary... David stern is not pre trib... but any way... I just feel that his bride is SAVED ISRAEL and added to thoes are saved GENTILES as well "one new man"... and like I said Time will tell. bless

My reply

Of course his Bride is SAVED ISRAEL plus SAVED GENTILES. I Cor. 12:13 (CJB) says, "For it was by one Spirit that we were all immersed into ONE BODY, WHETHER JEWS OR GENTILES, slaves or free; and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Eph. 4:4-6 (CBJ) says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as when you were called you were called to ONE HOPE. And there is one Lord, one trust, one immersion, and one God, the Father of all, who rules over all, works through all and is in all."

What is "ONE HOPE" in the above and "OUR CERTAIN HOPE" in the following?

Titus 2:11-13 (CBJ) says, "For God's grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all people. It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age; while continuing to EXPECT THE BLESSED FULFILLMENT OF OUR CERTAIN HOPE, which is the APPEARING of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah."

When will Yeshua APPEAR?

In 2 Tim. 4:8 (CJB), Paul said, "All that awaits me now is the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which the Lord, "the Righteous Judge," will award to me on that Day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for him to APPEAR."

When will Paul get his CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

I Kefa (I Peter) 5:4 says, "Then, when the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive glory as your unfading CROWN.

2 Yochanan (2 John) 1:1 says, "From: THE ELDER."

Revelation 4:1,4 (CJB) says, "After these things, I looked; and there before me was a door standing open in HEAVEN; and the voice like a trumpet which I had heard speaking with me before said, "COME UP HERE, and I will show you WHAT MUST HAPPEN AFTER THESE THINGS."...4. "Surrounding the throne were 24 other thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 ELDERS dressed in white clothing and wearing gold crowns on their heads."

When did the elder, John, and the other 11 apostles get to Heaven to join up with the other elders, the 12 patriarchs of Israel? What "must happen AFTER these things?

Revelation 5:14; 6:1 says, "the ELDERS fell down and worshipped. Next I watched as the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals."

What starts when the first seal is broken? What is it AFTER?

> > David stern is not pre trib

What has "David stern" got to do with it? Is he God? We are just supposed to believe what Scripture says. It is the only rock-hard truth we have.

Yesha'yahu (Isaiah) 57:1 (CJB) says, "Godly men are TAKEN AWAY, and no one understands that THE RIGHTEOUS PERSON IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL YET TO COME." Agape

Incoming email

From: John:

How many resurrections are there?

There is a difference of opinion among Bible students as to whether there are two phases to the second coming or one. It is my opinion that the Bible does not teach the two phase theory. However, there is one scripture that, in my opinion, totally eliminates the two phase theory In Rev. 20:4-5, John said, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Notice that John was speaking of those who had been killed because they would not worship the beast nor receive his mark. they obviously were on earth during the Great Tribulations. He says that these were raised from the dead and reigned with Christ. Then he says, “this is the first resurrection.” Since this is the first resurrection, there could not have been a resurrection prior to this, then the resurrection of Rev. 20: 4-5 would have been the second resurrection For this reason and many others, I believe that the two phase theory is unbiblical.

Does not the prayer that Jesus prayed in John 17:15-20 mean anything at all to you people. LOOK AT VERSE 15 and VERSE 20 REAL CLOSE John 17:15-20, I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. [20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

My reply

> > How many resurrections are there?

Acts 24:15 says, "there shall be A RESURRECTION of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Does this mean that there is ONE resurrection? Is that ONE resurrection of both the just and unjust? Is that correct doctrine?

No, we read some more and find out that there are TWO resurrections, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. Rev. 20:5 says, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." There are 1000 years between the two resurrections. Oh wow! if we had just gone by that one verse, Acts 24:15, we would have understood this whole thing wrong.

God's word is line upon line, precept upon precept, so that the wicked will not understand and will "fall backward and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:9-13). To understand correctly, we must compare all parts of Scripture, because, by design, only part of the picture is given in any one place, so the wicked will not understand.

The resurrection of the just is the first resurrection, it is finished on the first day of the Millennium. The resurrection of the unjust is the last resurrection. It follows the Millennium. Lu. 14:14 says, "And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." The just, "small and great" (Rev. 11:18), will receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the first day of the Millennium. The unjust will receive their just rewards for their unbelief at the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).

> > Since this is the first resurrection, there could not have been a resurrection prior to this, then the resurrection of Rev. 20: 4-5 would have been the second resurrection

Are you saying that Christ could not have been resurrected prior to this? If that were true, you would die in your sins. Are you saying that Christ's resurrection will be the "second resurrection"? If so, when was the first resurrection? If you follow that line of thinking very far, you fall into absurdities. You will eventually need to reconsider.

Christ was the FIRST to be resurrected. Therefore, he is part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. HE WAS RESURRECTED PRIOR TO Rev. 20:4,5, so were the OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS that came out of their graves on Resurrection Day. The first resurrection is a work in progress. It is the resurrection of the BODY OF CHRIST. The head was resurrected in 30 AD. The last foot will be resurrected on the first day of the Millennium. I think the first foot, the Bride of Christ, will be born into Heaven a bit before the last foot, the Tribulation saints.

How many ranks are there in the first resurrection? Christ was the first rank, The Seed, The Firstfruit. Afterward, the rest of the sheaf of the firstfruits was resurrected that same day. Mt. 27:52 says, "And the graves were opened; and MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHICH SLEPT AROSE." Jesus took those saints to Heaven that very day and returned to Earth. Jn. 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Later that day, he could be touched. This sheaf is part of the FIRST RESURRECTION too. They are part of the just.

There is no way that the entire first resurrection could only take place at the beginning of the Millennium. I Cor. 15:20-23 says, "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the RESURRECTION of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER (tagmati, rank): CHRIST the FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING."

When the last foot, the Tribulation saints, are resurrected, Christ does not gather them. The angels do. That is not "HIS COMING." Mk. 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the last foot, the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Pre-Trib Rapture, the first foot to be born into Heaven is caught up when Christ comes for them and shouts, "COME UP HITHER" (Rev. 4:1).

"HIS COMING" is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. John is one of the elders (I1 Jn. 1:1, II John 1:1). When he is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4, all the other elders are also in Heaven. Twelve of them are the 12 patriarchs of Israel. They were probably caught up on Resurrection Day in 30 AD as the rest of that sheaf of FIRSTFRUITS. The other 12 are the apostles, including John. Therefore at least 12 people are caught up in Rev. 4:1. The 24 elders are the representatives of a group of "saints...out of EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION" (Rev. 5:8,9). After this, the Tribulation begins when the first seal is broken on the title deed of the Earth in Rev. 6.

The last rank in the FIRST RESURRECTION is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. They are caught up between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals.

At the 7th seal, the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on unbelievers left on Earth. It is the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3). It is not the day of the Second Advent. That is still 7 months future (Eze. 39:12,13). The day of the Second Advent is not a dark day. Jesus returns in glory. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be LIGHT."

> > Does not the prayer that Jesus prayed in John 17:15-20 mean anything at all to you people. LOOK AT VERSE 15 and VERSE 20 REAL CLOSE

Are you really applying this to the year 2000 when it applied in 30 AD, BEFORE the Crucifixion, BEFORE the Church was even born on Earth at Pentecost? If so, you are really grasping at straws. Of course they were left on Earth at that time. The gospel was to be spread on Earth by those apostles and disciples. The situation today is much different.

Just keep in mind that Christ was the first of the first resurrection. The first resurrection applies to the entire Body of Christ. First the head was born, then the torso. Yet to be born into Heaven are the two feet. One is the Pre-Trib Rapture that takes place before the 1st seal is broken. The last is the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals.

I Thess. 4:13-18 is the first trump of God. It is when Jesus himself comes in the air and shouts "Come up hither." I Cor. 15:51,52 is the "last trump" of God. It is when Jesus sends his angels to gather all his saints, those caught up the first time from one end of Heaven to the other, those caught up the last time from one end of Earth to the other. Then the Body of Christ will be completely in Heaven. Agape

Incoming email

Re: apostasy vs departure
Isn't the same Greek word for apostasy used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 as in Acts 21:21? Why would this word be interpreted as "departure" in some bible versions?

My reply

It is really the same word, just a different ending. It is apostasian. The KJV translated that part "to forsake Moses." The Jerusalem Bible has "to break away from Moses." It still has the meaning of depart, no matter what words the translators chose to convey the meaning. Agape

Incoming email

I am a constant reader of your site and I strongly appreciate the dedication you have given to understanding and interpreting bible scripture. I just have one question that I truly hope you have the time to respond to.

If I have read your website correctly, I believe you feel that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture will take place between now (August 16th, 2000) and April 2001. Are you saying the thousands, perhaps millions of people will be Raptured (taken up in a cloud)? What will society think? How will the government explain this phenomenon? Will people be taken up in their physical bodies? What will happen to their homes, mortgages, jobs?

I hope you can please find the time to clarify this for me. I just find it fascinating that this event is going to happen so soon. One last question - If for some reason this does not happen by April 2001, how will you explain it to your readers?

May God continue to bless you. From a loyal reader.

My reply

I don't know how you came up with April 2001. I think the 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation, will start on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, May 28, 2001. I also expect the Pre-Trib Rapture to happen before that. I am not a prophet. I can be wrong. All I am saying is how it looks to me.

I expect the Bride of Christ to be caught up to meet Christ in the air when he COMES and shouts, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). It will be like what happened to Enoch. Gen. 5:24 says, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

One other person has been raptured. II Ki. 2:11 says, "there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." This represents the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:29 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." At the 2nd Rapture, fire will also fall that same day. It is the Day of God's Wrath on unbelievers left on Earth.

I think the ones that will go with Christ the Bridegroom at the first Rapture are represented by the 5 wise virgins in Mt. 25. They have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to keep their lamps burning brightly no matter how long the Bridegroom tarries.

I don't think the 5 foolish virgins will be caught up until the Pre-Wrath Rapture. At that time, Jesus will send his angels to gather all saints to the general assembly in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ (Heb. 12:23). Mk. 13:27 explains what will take place at that gathering. It says. "then shall he send his ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (those caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those raptured before the Tribulation).

When Joseph was in Egypt, he took up 1/5th of the grain in the 7 good years. If our 7 good years could have started when the Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993, they would be up Sept. 13, 2000, so there is a chance that we might be caught up by that day. At any rate, I don't think it could be very far into the future. Everything is falling right into place for the beginning of the Tribulation.

As for what the world will think, I hope the foolish Laodicean virgins will wake up and wash their robes in the blood of Christ so they will be caught up in the 2nd Rapture (Rev. 7:14). I also hope ones that have not believed in Christ will remember what we have said and accept Christ as their own personal Saviour. As for how much the world is jolted up by our departure, I could only speculate. There could be some other disaster at the same time that would serve to take people's minds off of our disappearance. Time will tell.

> > What will happen to their homes, mortgages, jobs?

I don't know what the government will think, etc. Homes should go to next of kin or to the ones holding the mortgage. Jobs will suddenly be available where there were few before. Some people say there will be accidents, but I am not sure of that. God has lots of angels. Maybe they will take care of those details. Agape

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