If that was the first resurrection, there could not have been a
resurrection seven years before.
2. Of the 2 resurrections, of the just and of the unjust, which one did Jesus participate in?
3. Which resurrection did the OT saints that came out of graves on Resurrection Day participate in?
4. What year was that?
5. What year do you honestly think the first resurrection started?
You are letting the fact that the Tribulation saints are the final rank in the 1st resurrection blind you to the fact that the 1st resurrection started on Resurrection Day in 30 AD. Also, do you realize whose symbol you used in your signature? Who slipped that one over on you? Agape
Re 17:12 - And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
To me one hour with the beast sounds like a short time to rule with the Anti-christ. Any thoughts on this?
I was thinking about this whole senario and started wondering about the 10 world divisions. I have not yet heard of anyone specific appointed by the O.W.G.to rule any of the 10 regions. Do you have any info on this?
I would think this would need to be in place or close to it by the time the rapture occurs.The Pope also needs to be replaced either thru rapture or death. Having a new government set to go would help reassure the world that order will be restored after the kaos of the rapture.
Maybe we have a little longer to wait. Any new thinking on the subject? In Christ
> > To me one hour with the beast sounds like a short time to rule with the Anti-christ. Any thoughts on this?
Yes. The word "hora" has several meanings. It can mean day, hour, instant, season, or time, the meaning to be determined by the context. It looks like the 10 kings will rule 2300 days, with this exception. Three of the original ones will be plucked up by the roots by the False Prophet. Whether they are replaced or not is not clear, but I assume that the number would be kept at 10 through replacement. The False Prophet is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath, and the 10 kings are too. Dan. 7:12 says of that day, "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."
> > I have not yet heard of anyone specific appointed by the O.W.G.to rule any of the 10 regions. Do you have any info on this?
It was just mentioned in passing in one document I saw, that the 10 kings were meeting with some group. I think I posted it, but I can't remember where. As far as I know, there has been no formal announcement of who they are. It is probably supposed to be secret for now. I know Gorbachev wanted to head up his area, though.
> > The Pope also needs to be replaced
Maybe or maybe not. I don't know.
> > Maybe we have a little longer to wait. Any new thinking on the subject?
Just that if the 7 good years started when the Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993, they would end Sept. 13, 2000. Surely we aren't going to be here much longer. A lady just phoned to tell me that Bill Cloud said that gold was refined differently from other metals. They start with a temperature of 1947 degrees and gradually raise it to 2000. Then the gold is pure. It sure fits the UN declaration to partition Israel in 1947 that brought about the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948. It also would fit if 2000 is the year of the Rapture. The Bride of Christ should be like pure gold. Jesus told the Laodiceans, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire" (Rev. 3:18). Their time is getting short. They had better pay attention now. Agape
No. I'm not God. I'm not even a prophet. I'm just one that is trying my best to be part of the Bride group. I have studied the scriptures as hard as I can go for 40 years.
> > but I do feel with out all of Israel its not a complete bride....... it dosnt not make any sense that most of (Israel the nation).... will go through the tribualtion
I know. How I wish with all my heart that all of Israel was in the Bride group. They should be, but all of Israel is not, and all of the Gentiles are not, either. It's a long sad story on both sides for all Adam's descendants.
The Tribulation is the trial that will come upon all the world after the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, Jew and Gentile alike. Revelation 3:7-13 (CJB) is the message to those Jews and Gentiles who accept him and have already repented and gotten close to him. He said, "To the angel of the Messianic community in Philadelphia, write: 'Here is the message of HaKadosh, the True One, the one who has the key of David, who, if he opens something, no one else can shut it, and if he closes something, no one else can open it. "I know what you are doing. Look, I have put in front of you an OPEN DOOR, and no one can shut it. I know that you have but little power, yet you have obeyed my message and have not disowned me. Here, I will give you some from the synagogue of the Adversary, those who call themselves Jews but aren't--on the contrary, they are lying--see, I will cause them to come and prostrate themselves at your feet, and they will know that I have loved you. Because you did obey my message about persevering, I Will keep you FROM the TIME OF TRIAL COMING UPON THE WHOLE WORLD TO PUT THE PEOPLE LIVING ON EARTH TO THE TEST. I am coming soon; hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. I will make him who wins the victory a pillar in the Temple of my God, and he will never leave it. Also I will write on him the name of my God and the name of my God's city, the new Yerushalayim coming down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. Those who have ears, let them hear what the Spirit is saying to the Messianic communities."'
How will the Philadelphians be kept "from the time of trial coming upon the whole world"?
> > I believe there are more guest then the bride in numbers
Me too. I wish it wasn't so, but it is all too true. Shalom and agape
Secondly, I'd like to encourage you to never stop looking for Him. Although many frown on date setting, I believe we are to be watchful, and ready, and to encourage one another with rapture talk, while waiting for the Blessed Hope.
And lastly, pro and con 545 was well done, and makes a lot of sense. Obviously Pentecost was fullfilled on the day of Pentecost, but I've always been open to the possibility that it could be a two part fullfillment process, the starting and the stopping of the Church age. Just as the first three feasts were fullfilled in rapid succession with the Death, Burial, and Resurrection, I believe the three fall feasts will likely be fullfilled in simular fashion with the Second Coming, Judgement of the Nations, and the start of the Millennial Kingdom. So the (Church event) Rapture may not fall on a (Jewish) feast day after all, which still fits perfectly.
I've thought for a long time that the Tribulation should end on Sept 13,2007, it seems a perfect fit to the 7 good years and the 7 bad. But it appears not ready to start on Sept 13,2000. We still need to squeeze in the battle of Ezekiel 38, although it need not take more then a few days to complete. I have a thought, Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. This passage seems to indicate the tribulation may not be a full seven years, and we assume the end of it gets cut off, but instead, a delay of the beginning would cause the same effect. Daniel and Revelation are very clear about the number of days for certain things, but the passage on the shortened days as been a mystery to me for a long time. Any thoughts on this? Yours In Christ
> > never stop looking for Him
Don't worry about that one. I want to be one of the Bride group. The Tribulation is looming ahead like a stormhead blowing in. We are not long for this Earth. We will be caught up ahead of the arrival of the dark cloud. I Thess. 5:4,5 says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."
The 2nd Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture) is on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. We don't want to be part of that group. That Rapture is as the days of Lot, fire falls that same day (Lu. 17:29). Amos 5:18 says, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." Zeph. 1:14,15 says, "The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."
Of the man without a wedding garment, Mt. 22:13,14 says, "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (outside of Heaven's door), there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." This is echoed in Mt. 25:30: "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." It is also echoed in Mt. 24:50, 51: "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is echoed in Lu. 12:46: "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:14) with the unbelievers."
> > the Tribulation should end on Sept 13,2007, it seems a perfect fit to the 7 good years and the 7 bad. But it appears not ready to start on Sept 13,2000. We still need to squeeze in the battle of Ezekiel 38
In my mind, there is no possible way the battle of Eze. 38 can be at any other time than the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the asteroid impacts and the worldwide earthquake, when EVERY WALL WILL FALL. Have you ever read Eze. 38:18-20? It says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a GREAT SHAKING in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground."
Rev. 16:17-19 says of that day, "the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH."
> > the shortened days as been a mystery to me for a long time. Any thoughts
Prov. 10:27 says, "The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of THE WICKED shall be SHORTENED." Job 20:5 says, "That the triumphing of THE WICKED is SHORT." The wicked one is the False Prophet. Those latter 1260 days of the Tribulation, called the Great Tribulation, are the days to be shortened.
Mt. 24:21,22 says, "For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED." Flanking this statement, Mt. 24:15 is Mid-Trib. Mt. 24:28-31 is the last day of the shortened period. Rev. 12:12 is Mid-Trib. It says, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but A SHORT TIME." Agape
I make a daily visit to the Pro & Con pages, and am grateful beyond words for the work that you have done. I pray for forgiveness every day in the sincere hope that the Lord will always open my eyes to the Truth of his Word.
I believe that the Lord is faithful and longsuffering towards us beyond the human comprehension of faith. I also believe that it is the Lord's wish for us to reason together, always relying upon the Holy Spirit, who the Lord himself has said is the greatest teacher, to guide is into all truth.
That said, I want you to know that I have been praying for discernment regarding your interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39, for I do not know what to make of it.
I have a deep concern for the fact that you frequently cite Ezekiel 39:12 for evidence of a seven month cleansing period, while making no mention of Ezekiel 39:9, which mentions a seven year period of the torching of Gog's weaponry.
If your interpretation is indeed truth, then would that not mean that seven years into the Millennial Reign of Christ, the people of Israel would STILL be burning the remnant of Gog from its memory?
I have a conviction within me that declares the Millennial Reign of Christ will be a time when the tears will be wiped from our eyes, it will not be the victory over evil that we relish so much (think of carnal man's fascination with revenge) as the glory of the Lord's grace who will finally dwell with us. In that Day that God is truly with us, I have a hard time accepting the fact that we would still be thinking about Gog and their "Last Dash South", as Russian politician anti-Semite Vladimir Zhirinovsky puts it.
I believe that the Week of Years in Ezekiel 39:9 could well be Daniel's 70th Week. Closely related to this point is the Lord's judgment that is meted out upon the House of Esau, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria in Obadiah, a book that I'd be interested to get your thoughts upon.
Did you know that the occult world's plan is for the Antichrist to emerge on the heels of a World War III that will be made to resemble Armageddon so as to confuse the masses on just who the real messiah is? Obadiah fits this evil plan, which God said will surely come, to a tee.
You might want to check out The Cutting Edge at http://www.cuttingedge.org for some interesting insights on the anticipated unfolding developments of End Times Wars (Wars and Rumors of Wars spoken of by our Lord) which are derived by careful study of the Word as well as a keen familiarity with just how fallen our world has become.
Something else that I'm not wholly convinced of is the claim that the fire that the Lord sends over Magog and "them that dwell carelessly in the isles" (could that be the USA?) is not a nuclear holocaust, instead of the comet impacts mentioned in Revelation. Remember, even though the Holy Spirit is getting ready to leave the building doesn't necessarily mean that God isn't in control of every detail of this Tribulation. Indeed, he will pull every string, so that World events mirror exactly the words spoken to the prophets thousands of years ago, written down for our admonition. Meaning that if God were to cause an evil thought to enter into Gog's mind, I see no reason the evil thought couldn't involve nuclear weaponry, which would most certainly look like fire raining down from heaven.
Finally, I believe the Red Horse of the second seal is none other than Gog in the flesh, Vladimir Putin, as it is given unto him by the Will of God to TAKE THE PEACE FROM THE EARTH THAT THE CONQUEROR ON THE WHITE HORSE BRINGS. I believe the one who brings the peace, riding the white horse, is the pretender to the throne, Antichrist. Daniel confirms in 11:44 that, "tidings out of the east (CHINA, N. KOREA) and out of the north(specifically RUSSIA) shall trouble him (ANTICHRIST): therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many."
How marvelous it is to have the hope of Jesus Christ written across our hearts, our minds, and our souls. My love is with you and all of your readers in the blood of our Lord, Amen.
I think it follows the 70th week of Daniel. Eze. 38 precedes Eze. 39. In the latter, verse 4 says to Gog, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured." Verse 8 says, "Behold, it is come, and IT IS DONE, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken." That day is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. Then, v. 9 says, "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel SHALL (in the future) go forth, and SHALL set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years."
Do you know why they need to burn these things the 1st 7 years of the Millennium? When the first asteroid impacts Earth, Rev. 8:7 says, "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and THE THIRD PART OF THE TREES WAS BURNT UP, and all green grass was burnt up. They need to let the trees regrow.
> > Something else that I'm not wholly convinced of is the claim that the fire that the Lord sends over Magog and "them that dwell carelessly in the isles" (could that be the USA?) is not a nuclear holocaust, instead of the comet impacts mentioned in Revelation.
Gog has troops in the area. He is not going to blast his own men. Gog doesn't stop Gog. The Lord stops Gog. Babylon is also destroyed. Jer. 50:25 says, "The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans." What are the weapons God uses?
Do you remember Gen. 3:24? It says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." His weapon is the "flaming sword" that rotates as it orbits.
This is like Joshua/Jesus' Long Day. Joshua 10:11 says, "the LORD cast down GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."
> > I believe the Red Horse of the second seal is none other than Gog in the flesh, Vladimir Putin, as it is given unto him by the Will of God to TAKE THE PEACE FROM THE EARTH THAT THE CONQUEROR ON THE WHITE HORSE BRINGS. I believe the one who brings the peace, riding the white horse, is the pretender to the throne, Antichrist
When the Beast (the Tribulation Pope, Rev. 13:7,8) takes command, he rules 1260 days (Rev. 13:5). He is the one that I think rides the first 3 horses of Rev. 6. By the 4th horse, Mid-Trib, the Satan-possessed False Prophet takes over. He is the final Antichrist and speaks "as a dragon" (Rev. 13:11).
> > I have a conviction within me that declares the Millennial Reign of Christ will be a time when the tears will be wiped from our eyes
That will happen when we get to Heaven. Heaven is our home. We will come to Earth with Christ, but after the millennial government is set up, I expect to go home. If we are needed on Earth, we will be able to travel back and forth to work.
> > Did you know that the occult world's plan is for the Antichrist to emerge on the heels of a World War III that will be made to resemble Armageddon so as to confuse the masses on just who the real messiah is? Obadiah fits this evil plan
I have heard that, but the Lord rules. There "shall not be ANY remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it" (Obadiah 18). Agape
In "I know you not," know is "eido," prop. to see. Maybe this should also serve as a warning that he wants to see our lamps burning brightly with the oil of the Holy Spirit. Agape
> > Claudius Ptolmey, the geographer-astronomer of antiquity, lived in Alexandria, Egypt, from about 87-150 A.D. He was the contriver of a chronology that added 80 years to the duration of the Persian Empire.
> > It was the seminary in Dallas that decided that this prince wasn't Messiah the prince but a prince that wasn't mentioned in this prophecy at all: The antichrist. This changed many people's thinking on last days events and on who was who. This also caused the pre-trib theory to come about because if you put this with 2Thes then the church has to be raptured before the man of sin is revealed and he would be revealed by making this covenant. Hence the rapture before the 70th week begins. This vision concerning the 70 weeks and it's interpretation is confirmed by Jesus when He gave the Revelation to John concerning the woman with 12 Stars that gives birth to a male child. Revelation 12 tells of this same time line as the 70th week, beginning at His baptism and His 1260 days of preaching and then the last 1260 days being left for the end time events in our time.
The Pre-Trib Rapture was taught long before Dallas Theological Seminary existed. In his approx. 1500 word sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627k) said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." (Alexander, Paul J. "The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition [Berkeley: Univ. of CA Press, 1985] p. 210).
The setting of Rev. 12 is Mid-Trib. Verse 3 says, "behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven CROWNS on his heads." The 7th king is the False Prophet, who comes to full power Mid-Trib. The kings/kingdoms are (1) Babel, (2) Babylon, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Rome, (6) OWG and UR under the Tribulation Pope, and (7) OWG and UR under the False Prophet.
The setting of Rev. 17 is at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Those that are with Christ "are called, and chosen, and faithful" (v. 14). The 10 kings that are under the Beast have "received no kingdom as yet." "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is (the Tribulation Pope), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come" (v. 10).
The setting of Rev. 13:1 is the beginning of the Tribulation. The Beast rises "up out of the sea (nations, Rev. 17:15), having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten CROWNS, and upon his heads (all 7) the name of blasphemy" (Pontifex Maximus). The 10 kings are crowned at the beginning of the Tribulation. The Beast is the 6th head of the great red dragon. He rules 1260 days (Rev. 13:5). The Satan-possessed False Prophet is the 7th. He speaks "as a dragon" (Rev. 13:11). Agape
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