Pro and Con 583

Posted 8-28-00

Incoming email

that letter from Rebecca is right out of Shepherd's Chapel Doctrine. . . AGAIN!! Here is what I find interesting about all of this, the exact same deception has showed up in your mail box over and over. I have met two others personally who claim to be Christians, and are deceived by exactly the same thing....There is only so much a spirit filled Christian can do, because when they continue to grieve the Holy Spirit, the Trinity gives them over to the deception, as the Bible clearly states. Agape, it won't be long,

My reply

The thing that makes it hard to reach these people is that they are totally convinced that Pastor Arnold Murray (Shepherd's Chapel) is right and everyone else is wrong. They aren't listening, no matter what you tell them. Agape

Incoming email

Re: At What Point Does Jesus Come?
It's been a while since I've written, but I've monitored your site on a regular basis. Your response to Becky in PC 582 suggests an encounter with her that goes well beyond what you have chosen to share with us in that PC. I can't recall any other of your responses that dripped with such sarcasm. I guess there is sometimes nothing else you can do.

I have noticed time and again that people seem to equate the 2nd coming of Jesus with the rapture. I wonder why that is. To be sure we will be caught up to be with Him at the rapture, but He does not set foot on this earth at the time, unless I've missed something. His coming will be several years later, when the Father finally says something like, "Enough is enough," and initiates the final battle prior to the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Would you like to clarify this for us? Thanks.

My reply

I haven't approached anyone else like I did Becky, and I doubt that I will again. I knew from her web site that she is deep into the teachings of Pastor Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. She has his picture and statement of faith posted. Having tried in the past to help someone just as deep into these things without results, I decided to try to shake her up enough to take another look. I haven't heard from her, so it probably didn't work. Although they believe the right things about Christ, they are so sure that Murray is right and everyone else is wrong on other things, they are hard to reach. If you can figure out how to get them to reconsider, let me know, or write to Becky. I wish someone could get her to read Scripture herself and make up her own mind instead of letting someone tell her what to believe.

> > people seem to equate the 2nd coming of Jesus with the rapture. I wonder why that is. To be sure we will be caught up to be with Him at the rapture, but He does not set foot on this earth at the time

You are right. These two comings are not alike. Christ comes in the air at the Rapture. I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Christ sets his feet on Earth at the Second Advent and we all come back to Earth with him. Zech. 14:4-7 says, " his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley...and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

We can't return with Christ unless we are caught up to Heaven before that time. The Tribulation saints can't return with Christ unless they are caught up to Heaven before that time either. If the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints was at the Second Advent, there would be no need of the separation of the sheep and goats at the Judgment of the Nations. The Pre-Wrath Rapture would separate them. In that scenario, one would be hard pressed to find any earthlings left to live on into the Millennium. Agape

Incoming email

World religious leaders convene peace summit (on 8-28-00)

...The Millennium World Peace Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders, assembling more than 1,000 participants from 12 world faiths, will work on proposals to end armed conflict, poverty and harm to nature....

With political topics off-limits, attendance has been possible for such religious leaders as Rabbi Meir Lau, chief rabbi of Israel, and Muslim World League leader Abdullah Salaih Al-Obaid.

"Many participants have never engaged in meetings like this," said Mr. Jain, who noted that Hindu swamis, Peruvian shamans and Buddhist sages are all participating....

The unprecedented meeting, which unfolds inside the United Nations today and tomorrow before moving to the hotel, was born of "conversations" between Mr. Annan and media leader Ted Turner a year ago. It has been organized as a non-governmental organization, or NGO, with an advisory board of international religious leaders and funding by Mr. Turner's Better World Fund and other well-known foundations. Mr. Turner is honorary chairman.

"What I hope the U.N. will find is the appropriate way for its peace work to relate to our religious communities," said the Rev. Leonid Kishkovsky, an Orthodox leader with the World Conference on Religion and Peace. "...

The summit has the blessings of the Vatican, which is sending Cardinal Francis Arinze, head of inter-religious work.

The head of the World Council of Churches, the Rev. Conrad Raiser, also will be present.

Incoming email

Re: September 13 calendar celebrations
I just wanted to let you know of two celebrations which Orthodox Christians will be celebrating on September 13th (Gregorian Calendar). The first is a feast which has been kept since the 4th century: The celebration of the dedication of the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem (in the west this Church is called the Holy Sepulchre). I think that the coincidence of celebrating the Resurrection on this particular date is interesting. Also, the evening of September 13 we will celebrate the Feast of the Holy Cross. This is also an ancient holy day. It celebrates the finding of the Cross of Christ by St. Helena, and also the recovery of it after the Muslims had sacked Jerusalem. It is properly called the "Exaltation of the Holy Cross." It would be interesting if we were to be called by the Lord to join Him on the 13th, and a sign in the heavens of the Holy Cross were to appear to hearald our departure. I think that this would certainly send many lukewarm Laodiceans to the foot of the Cross in repentance.
I just thought you might be interested.
I remain, Yours in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ

Incoming email

I haven't written for quite a while, but I sure do keep up with your site. Thank you so much for sharing your tremendous insight and vision. Some of us just crave what you offer.

Someone asked me a question I've never thought of and wondered if you've given it any thought or have any ideas? Why did Jesus walk on the water?

My reply

Thanks for your kind remarks....

There may be more to it than I can see, but I'll tell you my thoughts. The Lord seems to have used water as a teaching tool to teach us some things we need to know. There are several verses that speak of living water (Jn. 7:38), fountain of the water of life (Rev. 21:6), well of living water welling up into everlasting life (Jn. 4:14), water out of the wells of salvation (Isa. 12:3). Water is a symbol of the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9), and water obeyed Christ, as the wind did. Christ will come unto us as the rain (Hos. 6:3) and as the great rain of God's strength (Job 37:6).

Mt. 14:22-36 tells us about Jesus coming to the ship walking on the water. Peter also walked some on the water, then said, "Lord, save me." Jesus said, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased." The walking on the water was a miracle. The sea and wind obeying Christ was a miracle. Those in the ship worshipped him and said, "Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

You know how different details are put in different places so only the wise can understand. We have to compare scripture with scripture, lay the accounts side by side and be sure we see all the details. This is one of those cases.

In Mk. 6:47, we find out that the ship "was in the midst of the sea." and that these miracles were probably because "they considered not the miracle of the loaves." He wanted them to really know that he was the Son of God. Then in John 6:21, we find a huge miracle. It leaves out the part about Peter, but says, "Then they willingly received him into the ship: and IMMEDIATELY THE SHIP WAS AT THE LAND WHITHER THEY WENT." They were instantly transported from the "midst of the sea" to their destination. I often wonder if we will arrive in Heaven like that after meeting Christ in the clouds. Agape

Incoming email

Fascinating ... The Lord has a way of revealing those of us who really know him,and those that don't!!! Al Gore gave a big speech recently about how his faith is so "important" to him. In this attempt to convince the American people that we should consider him for president, he announced that his favorite Bible verse is John 16:3. Of course the speech writer meant John 3:16, but nobody in the Gore camp was familiar enough with scripture to catch the error. And do you know what John 16:3 says?

John 16:3, "And they will do this because they have not known the Father nor Me" (RSV)

The Holy Spirit works in strange ways!!!

Incoming email

...Check out this site.

My reply

Thanks. I think the 10 kings are to be crowned in the Tribulation, but found the following interesting:
The Prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation, Chapter 2
...The character of the Babylonian Empire is indicated by the head of gold. It was the golden kingdom of a golden age. Babylon, its metropolis, towered to a height never reached by any of its successors. Situated in the garden of the East; laid out in a perfect square said to be sixty miles in circumference, fifteen miles on each side; surrounded by a wall estimated to have been two hundred to three hundred feet high and eighty-seven feet thick, with a moat, or ditch, around this, or equal cubic capacity with the wall itself; divided into squares by its many streets, each one hundred and fifty feet in width, crossing at right angles, every one of them straight and level; its two hundred and twenty-five square miles of enclosed surface laid out in in luxuriant pleasure grounds and gardens, interspersed with magnificent dwellings--this city, with its sixty miles of moat, its sixty miles of outer wall, its thirty miles of river wall through its center, its gates of solid brass, its hanging gardens rising terrace above terrace till they equaled in height the walls themselves, its temple of Belus three miles in circumference, its two royal palaces, one three and a half and the other eight miles in circumference, with its subterranean tunnel under the River Euphrates connecting these two....

Incoming email

This link contains a time line with several dates and historical events that seem to agree with your perception of future events. Except for the 70th week which they believe started in 1993. I believe that the rest is accurate and would like your opinion...Thank You agape...Canada

My reply

Sorry to take so long to answer. I had to type the above from looking at the Mac screen, for I have no good way to transfer things between the old Mac and the new PC.

I agree with 1517. The Ottoman Turks were conquered, Jerusalem was liberated, and Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation when he tacked his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany. That was a significant date.

> > Julienne Chambers said, "According to Bishop Ussher the Jews crossed the Jordan into Canaan in 1451 BC .. in the Jewish Year that commenced Tishri 1452 BC. This was therefore the year of Israel?s birth. I believe it is testimony to the Sovereignty of God that the Ottoman Empire came into being in the Jewish Year that commenced Tishri 1452 BC. "

I disagree with Ussher's date. I think the Exodus was BC 1530 (2513 AH). Therefore, we can't measure anything from the BC 1452 date.

The 1290 and 1335 days in Dan. 12:11,12 are days, not years. They start with the placing of the abomination of desolation in the temple Mid-Trib. We have nothing to justify using them for years to measure anything in the past.

> > Julienne said, "Mark 1993 on your timeline. The Oslo Accords were signed in September 1993. Overarch a line from September 13th 1993 to January 1st 2000 and label it 2300 days. From the signing of Oslo to the 1st of January 2000 there are 2300 days! > > "I believe the 2300 days from the 13th of Sept 1993 to the 1st of January 2000 are a sign that the covenant ?confirmed for one seven? by Jesus, the Conquering King, will be brought to completion in the Year 2000 .. in the Jewish Year 5760 .. in the Year 6000 on the adjusted Hebrew calendar."

I believe the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 are the Tribulation days when Israel can sacrifice at the temple plus the days when she can't. I see nothing in Scripture about them applying to a time just before the Tribulation. Dan. 8:11-14 says, "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The sanctuary will be cleansed at the end of the Tribulation.

> > Julienne said, "Is the 7 years from 1993 to Tishri 2000 the ?70th Week? referred to in Daniel 9?"

As you already know, I don't agree with this. I am expecting the 70th week of Daniel to start on the Feast of Weeks in 2001. I think the 2300 days run from then to the Feast of Weeks on Sept. 13, 2007.

> > Julienne said, "In 1917, 400 years from 1517, the Balfour Declaration paved the way for the restoration of Israel.

> > "430 years.

> > "Now the sojourn of the children of Israel was 430 years. And it came to pass that at the end of 430 years - on the very same day - all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt." Exodus 12:40-41. "The promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed .. meaning Christ. The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God nor does it do away with the promise ..." Gal 3:17. In 1947, 430 years from 1517, the decree was issued by the United Nations that resulted in the rebirth of Israel!

> > "450 years.

> > "The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; He made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country, he endured their conduct for about forty years in the desert, he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to his people as their inheritance. All this took about 450 years." Acts 13:16-20. In 1967, 450 years from 1517, East Jerusalem, the wailing wall and the West Bank were captured by Israel. Jerusalem became the 'eternal and indivisible capital of Israel'.

> > "476 years.

> > "It came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the Lord. (1Kings 6:1) King Solomon was therefore crowned King of Israel 476 years after the Exodus. Jesus was crowned King of Israel 476 years from the second decree of Artaxerxes. 476 years from 1517 the Oslo Accords were signed by the Nation of Israel. 480 years.

> > "480 years from 1517 Israel observed its second jubilee year and enjoyed its first jubilee celebration. In October 1997, 480 years from 1517, the Temple Mount Faithful Movement laid a cornerstone in Zion at a special ceremony. The words of King Solomon at the dedication of the ancient Temple were read aloud.

> > "I believe the theses of Martin Luther nailed to the Wittenberg Door in 1517 were the anti-typical fulfillment of the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem that was linked by ?sevens? through the ?70 Week Prophecy? to the first coming of the Lord! I believe the second coming of Jesus will take place ?toward the Year 2000? .. 490 prophetic years and 483 solar years from 1517."

I think that 400, 430, 450, 480, 483 and 490 years added to 1517 do point out important milestones in modern days. I don't see where 476 was used in Scripture. I do not think we need to figure so-called prophetic years. I think ordinary years were intended.

> > Julienne said, " What about the tribulation that lasts 3.5 years? Where in the Word of God is it explicitly taught that the second coming of Jesus will be preceded by 3.5 years of ?great tribulation?? What about the cessation of the daily sacrifice by the Antichrist 3.5 years before the second coming? That is not the explicit instruction of the Scriptures! Jesus brought an end to sacrifice and offering ?in the middle of a seven? when He became the atoning sacrifice for sin."

> > Mt. 24:15 starts with the abomination of desolation in Mid-Trib. Verse 31 is the 2300th day. The "great tribulation of Mt. 24:21 runs from Mid-Trib to the 2300th day. When the False Prophet becomes Satan possessed Mid-Trib, he will desecrate the temple, place the abomination of desolation, and the sacrificing will stop. It has nothing to do with 30 AD. Sacrificing kept on almost until the temple was burned in 70 AD.

> > Julienne said, "I believe Jesus was born ?62 sevens? from the decree ?to restore and rebuild Jerusalem?. > > "I believe He confirmed the covenant ?for one seven? and died in the middle of the ?seven?."

I believe the 1st statement and not the 2nd. Martin Anstey, author of The Romance of Bible Chronology, discovered an 82-year mistake in the era of the Persian kings. BC 586 - 82 = 454. 483 - 454 + 1 (no zero yr) = 30 AD, the year of the crucifixion. The False Prophet will be the one to confirm the covenant and the sacrificing will be stopped Mid-Trib. Agape

Incoming email

Re: The First Resurrection and Rev. 20:4-6
Let me add my two cents to try to clarify to what Rev. 20:5 is saying. In interpreting any scripture you must look at it in context. He totally ignored the next verse.

Verse 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (through resurrection) and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Verse 5 (the following sentence in paranthetical) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
verse 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The sentence "This is the first resurrection" does not refer to the sentence immediately before it. That statement is parenthetical focusing upon the last resurrection at the time of the White Throne Judgement, not the first resurrection. If you read just those two sentences and no other you could jump to the conclusion he did, that the first resurrection is at the end of the millennium. But not just for the logical reasons you gave, but right here in these verses it is clear. The statement "This is the first resurrection" refers to those that are resurrected and LIVE AND REIGN WITH JESUS A THOUSAND YEARS' (not after the thousand years). One segment of those that are a part of the first resurrection are the martyred tribulation saints that are spoken of in the previous verse (4). These are a part of the group that according to 1 Cor. 15:23 are resurrected in the phase of the first resurrection termed "they that are Christ's at his coming". (I went into more detail in my post on 1 Cor.15:23 which hopefully will be posted before this is). Notice that the verse following (6), clearly describes those that "hath part in the first resurrection". The group as a whole . . . the sheaf that was resurrected with Jesus, the Bride of Christ at the pre-tribulation rapture and the tribulation saints at the pre-trib. rapture, ALL are described as priests of God no matter which rank of the first resurrection they were in. Like verse 4, once again verse 6 says that these that are a part of the whole first resurrection with it's different ranks ALL reign with him for a thousand years (not after the thousand years). I hope this commentary on these verses along with what you already wrote makes it clear that you can't just take one verse and ignore those around it. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

Thanks bunches. Two heads are better than one. This clarifies it.

Incoming email


My reply

Thanks. Will post 3 URLs with the titles and 1st bit of each story on P & C 585.

His reply

Thanks...I also have your link up at my web site forum, Rapture Truths, Prophecy News, & Hebraic Studys at:

My reply

I went to one of your links. Will copy excerpts and add my comments. Pre-Trib Perspectives
by: Thomas Ice
Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

...The Bible indicates that each individual within the Body of Christ will appear before the bema in association with Christ's return for the church (i.e., at the pretrib rapture). Dr. Robert Gromacki notes: "the judgment will occur immediately after the coming of Christ for believers...It is a once-for-all event that occurs right after the appearing of Christ (I Thess. 4:13-18).

***From Marilyn: I think the bema, Judgment Seat of Christ, will be on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the 2300th day of the Tribulation, the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army attacking Israel), and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the bema), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." thing is clear in prophetic Scripture, the marriage occurs in heaven (Rev. 19:7-9) before the triumphal return of Christ with His redeemed church at His side (Rev. 19:11-16)....

***I agree. Therefore, the Bride cannot be Raptured at the Second Advent. She has to be in Heaven before that.

THE JUDGMENT OF GENTILES...Dr. John F. Walvoord points out that if "the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31)."...
Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist
...The latest pre-Darby voice to join the chorus is that of an early American Baptist pastor and educator, Morgan Edwards (1722-95).... Edwards founded the first Baptist college in the Colonies, Rhode Island College, which we know today as Brown University....(Morgan Edwards wrote) the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17)...This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half before his killing the witnesses and assumption of godhead....The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before)... ***He saw the Pre-Trib Rapture. He just failed to see that the Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel and is 7 years.
The Holy Spirit and the Pretribulational Rapture
...Walvoord explains, "We search the prophetic Scriptures in vain for any reference to baptism of the Spirit except in regard to the church, the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). While, therefore, the Spirit continues a ministry in the world in the tribulation, there is NO LONGER A CORPORATE BODY of believers knit into one living organism. There is rather a return to national distinctions and fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium."

We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since ALL MEMBERS OF THAT BODY WILL BE IN HEAVEN. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will NOT BE PART OF THE BODY OF CHIRST-THE-CHURCH... ***Eph. 4:4 says, "There is ONE BODY, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling." The foolish Laodicean virgins are only spued out temporarily. The 144,000 Israelites are virgins and faultless in Rev. 14:4,5. Surely they are part of the Body of Christ. They seem to be part of the Bride.

   Pro and Con 584   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 8-28-00