Pro and Con 590

Posted 9-4-00

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Re: India Girl from Malaysia
I would like to suggest 2 church that located in Malaysia that this Indian Girl can go to that is 1) Calvary Charismatic Church and S.I.B Church (Sidang Injil Borneo). I am from Malaysia but state of Sabah (North Borneo). God Bless You.

My reply

Thanks so much. I'll FWD these. Agape

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From: Mark Copfer: Re: The Falling Away
just thought I would share this with you, as it was sent to me from my motherinlaw, whom I consider an A+ expert in the study of the hebraic/greek original transcripts. Enjoy.
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Paul is not talking about 'a falling away' 'an apostacy', but THE Apostacy. Greek 'he apostasia' It is the subject of the phrase and there is no indirect object. But he is talking about 'THE DEPARTURE' 'falling away' 'departing from' of something. In the first verse of the chapter he talks about the 'parousia' of the Lord Jesus - His Second Coming when His presence will be seen by everyone, and by our gathering together 'episunayoges' TO him. This is the subject of the chapter. Now Paul knew the O.T. The New Testament was not completed yet in its written form, so he gets his teaching from the O.T. In Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men (men of kindness, or, godliness) are taken away,(gathered) none considering that the righteous is taken away (gathered) FROM the evil to come.

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (sheltered, Strong's #5641, absent, kept close (to Jesus)concealed in the day of the Lord's anger. Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers -Heb. hadar- wedding chamber, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL the indignation (another word for 'tribulation' be overpast. Then chap. 27 tells us somethings about the a.c. pictured as the leviathan, (seven headed beast) Look in Encyclopaedia Judaica on leviathan. Isaiah 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones -for mine anger, - literal Hebrew - to my nose, even them that rejoice in my highness. It is a picture of a ritual at the Havdalah service at the end of the Sabbath, or the festivals, when a spice box of good smelling spices is passed around for each one to take a good wiff of and help us remember the sweetness of what we have just celebrated until the next time they meet again. The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about the tribulation likened unto a woman in travail, ready to give birth. Three Hebrew passages telling us about the pre-trib. rapture, departure, falling away from this sinful mess. Isaiah 26:20 is our going into the wedding chamber. Joel 2:15-17 is the bridegroom coming out of the chamber - hadar - wedding chamber, and the bride out of her closet - chuppah - wedding canopy where they said their vows. This day they are coming back is Yom Kippur, because . . it is the only festival they fast on, for 25 hrs. . the only day the priests weep between the porch and the altar of the Temple. Keep Watching and Looking UP. The bridegroom cometh to take us to the place he went to prepare for us. We do belong to the King of kings and therefore we go to the Coronation of our Beloved King, Rev. 4 and 5.

One more little quote, from Kenneth Wuest, a great Greek Scholar, his translation of 2 Thess. 2:3 Do not begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall not come except the aforementioned DEPARTURE (of the Church to heaven) comes first and the man of the lawlessness is disclosed (in his true identity), the son of perdition, he who sets himself in opposition to and exalts himself above everyone and everything that is called a god or that is an object of worship, so that he seats himself in the inner sanctuary of God, proclaiming himself to be deity. (emphasis mine, MJA)
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In Christ. Visit our Rapture Truths & Hebraic Study Forum
http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1123981

My reply

Thanks. Love that last quote. Kenneth Wuest knew what it means.

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Re: Margaret macDonald
...At one time, in my studies of the pre-trib rapture, I had done some studying, and found to my dismay, that a certain Margaret McDonald of Scotland seemed to be the origin of this teaching. For a while, I wavered, because, on the one hand, her walk with the Lord seemed to be so incredibly intimate, and on the other, she seemed to be delusional. It was not until I actually read the account of her "vision" that I could see that she had been tarred and feathered by both sides of the rapture position, and I saw the following TRUTH within the account. This excerpt is taken from an article by Brother Elwin Roach (Pathfinder Ministries), and addresses the "The Rapture Question":

The doctrine of the "PRE-TRIB RAPTURE" can also be credited to what began in Port Glasgow, Scotland in 1830. A young Scottish lass named Margaret MacDonald had a revelation of the coming of the Lord before the great tribulation. Several noted Bible teachers of that day picked up on this thought, but it was Edward Irving and John Darby who were responsible for it being popularized in Scotland and England. It is said of Darby that he borrowed from Margaret MacDonald's revelation, modified her views, and then taught them under his own name without giving her credit. He visited the U.S. at least five times, and his dispensationalism became part of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909), as quoted above. It was the notes in Scofield's Bible that caused this new teaching to find favor in this country.

shall we insert here that Scofield's notes are EXTRA-BIBLICAL, and NOT scripture itself????

The following is Margaret MacDonald's handwritten account of her 1830 revelation as it appears in Memoirs of James & George MacDonald, of Port-Glasgow (1840) by Robert Norton, pp. 171-176; The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861) also by Norton, pp. 15-18; and The Incredible Cover Up by Dave MacPherson, (1980) (The above statements were also taken from this book):

"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. I repeated the words, 'Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear now look out for the sign of the Son of man.' Here I was made to stop and cry out, 'O it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.' I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was the Lord Himself descending from Heaven with a shout, the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in His people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels this is the light to be kept burning the light of God that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of His appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for His day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up He is the light 'tis only those that are alive in Him that will be caught up to meet Him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known....I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known now shall it be know what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. This is the fiery trial which is to try us. It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake every thing we have believed in but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest the love of many will wax cold. I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trials too, but it is principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit have the light of God in you, that you may detect satan be full of eyes within be clay in the hands of the potter submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple....Jesus wants His bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus." End quote.

This young Scottish lass was not only maligned and called a heretic by the church and the news media in her day; but her credibility has also been attacked from all sides today. Those who believe in a literal "post-trib" rapture as well as those who see it more as an inward catching away, have brought her under fire. The post-tribbers have tried to discredit her, because she had said one has to be filled with the Spirit of Christ to see the Lord coming in glory and for saying His coming to His church will be without observation only those with an eye (spiritual eye) to see will see Him when He appears. Those who have the vision of an inner catching away have used her name in a negative way, because it sounded as if she believed the saints would at that time meet Jesus in the literal air. Due to ignoring the spiritual reality of being caught away, her vision was one of the things that helped to enforce the concept Ribera and Lacunza founded earlier. Both factions, the post-tribbers and the spiritual minded, have undermined the authenticity of her vision because it did not line up with their views, and being a female, a young one at that, did not help.

After reading her account of the vision, as well as other letters she had written and what others in her day wrote about her, we can see she had a very close walk with God and what she had seen could have very well been by the Spirit. The problem appears to lie with what Darby, Irving, and Scofield had done with her vision and with her own apparent lack of understanding in what she was seeing; namely that, the soon appearing of the Lord was speaking of His appearing in them, for in the prophecies that came through them almost always ended with, "BEHOLD HE COMETH, JESUS COMETH." This would indicate He was ALREADY COMING to them at that time (JESUS COMES A PRESENT ACTION); but they had failed to see the spiritual reality of Him that COMES, they too were looking for that which was outward rather than inward.

I feel that I must concur with this position, as it seems to have NO "loopholes" to have to close up in order to 'make it work'. I'm sure I will draw some further fire from those who have sat under the grievous wolves that have entered into the church with their doctrines for itching ears and "pillows" to rest on in ease.

Finally, in Matthew chapter 24/25, I am sure you are familiar with the "as it was in the days of Noah" passage, that basically says that when the Lord DOES return, everyone will be eating, drinking, marrying, building and planting, etc. in other words, life as usual. I don't suppose you have any clue to as to the deeper understanding of these activities (or do you?) this is a clue to state OF THE CHURCH at that time....not just the world. and, if what you are looking for is the soon coming judgement of the "wicked, unsaved world", just when is the time-frame supposed to be for the judgment that falls on the "house of the Lord" FIRST??? Blessings

My reply

Margaret MacDonald came after the fact. Whatever you think of dreams and visions (which I don't pay much attention to, because the Bible is the only pure truth we have), the Rapture was taught long before her time. The oldest quote I have for you is c. 374-627 AD. It is from an about 1500-word sermon that I have copies of in both English and Latin.

In this sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem, of Syria, said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together BEFORE THE TRIBULATION, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." (Alexander, Paul J. "The Byzantine Apocalyptic, p. 210).

Also, Morgan Edwards (1722-95) came to the US from England and became pastor of the Baptist Church in Philadelphia in May 1761. He later founded the first Baptist college in the Colonies, Rhode Island College, which we know today as Brown University.

During his student days at Bristol Baptist Seminary in England (1742-44), he wrote an essay for eschatology class on his views of Bible prophecy. This 56-page essay was later published in Philadelphia (1788) under the following title: Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties. He said, "The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more --; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: THEY WILL ASCEND TO PARADISE, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and SO DISAPPEAR DURING THE FORESAID PERIOD OF TIME. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17)."

He understood that there is to be a Pre-Trib Rapture, but did not understand that the Tribulation was the 70th week of Daniel and therefore 7 years long.

Todays anti-pretribulationist John Bray said, "It would be interesting to know what, in those early years at the Academy, led Edwards to his concept of a pre-tribulation rapture." Even John Bray knows that the "concept of a pre-tribulation rapture" preceded the time of Margaret MacDonald.

Therefore, I would think that you would throw out the vision of Margaret MacDonald, since it can have no bearing on when the Pre-Trib Rapture began to be taught. Stick to the scriptures.

How did Morgan Edwards approach the study of Bible prophecy to arrive at his "concept of a pre-tribulation rapture"? It was by studying the Bible as if it literally said what it meant. J.N. Darby claimed, as did Edwards before Darby, to take scripture literally. He said, "I will do my possible: and in the attempt will work by a rule you have often recommended, viz. 'to take the scriptures in a literal sense, except when that leads to contradiction or absurdity.'" If we let the scriptures say what they say, we too can see that the saints are caught up before the Tribulation.

I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."

The Greek word "harpazo," translated "caught up," is talking about the Rapture, about being caught up to Heaven, to Paradise. Harpazo is also used when Paul was himself caught up to the third heaven. In II Cor. 12:8, Paul said, " I knew a man (Paul himself) in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP (harpazo) TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of MYSELF I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but NOW I FORBEAR, lest any man should think of ME (the one caught up to the third heaven) above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And LEST I SHOULD BE EXALTED ABOVE MEASURE through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, LEST I SHOULD BE EXALTED ABOVE MEASURE."

Since "harpazo" is used in "CAUGHT UP (harpazo) TO THE THIRD HEAVEN" in II Cor. 12:2, it can have the same connotation in II Thess. 4:17. If Paul, one of the 24 elders of Rev. 4:4, was caught up to Heaven in the 1st century, it could be a sign that Paul will actually be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture he described in II Thess. 4:17.

In Acts 8:39, "harpazo" is translated "caught away." It says, "when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." Thus, "harpazo" can be used when someone is caught away and is seen no more, as in the Rapture.

In Rev. 12:5, "harpazo" is translated caught up. It says, "her child was caught up (harpazo) unto God, and to his throne." Since the setting is Mid-Trib, when the 7th head of the dragon, the False Prophet, is crowned, I think her child represents the two witnesses, "and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud" when the Lord said, "Come up hither" (Rev. 11:12), just as the Bride of Christ will ascend up to heaven in a cloud at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Harpazo can be used to depict being caught up to heaven in a cloud, as in the Rapture.

> > I feel that I must concur with this position, as it seems to have NO "loopholes" to have to close up in order to 'make it work'.

You are fooling yourself if you see no loopholes. They are all over the place.

> > Finally, in Matthew chapter 24/25, I am sure you are familiar with the "as it was in the days of Noah" passage, that basically says that when the Lord DOES return, everyone will be eating, drinking, marrying, building and planting, etc. in other words, life as usual. I don't suppose you have any clue to as to the deeper understanding of these activities (or do you?) this is a clue to state OF THE CHURCH at that time....not just the world. and, if what you are looking for is the soon coming judgement of the "wicked, unsaved world", just when is the time-frame supposed to be for the judgment that falls on the "house of the Lord" FIRST???

I am not looking for "the soon coming judgement of the 'wicked, unsaved world.'" The 1st judgment is for the Church. In this judgment, Christ will decide who is part of the Bride of Christ and who is not, like when king Ahasuerus (lion king) decided to pick Esther (hidden secret, star) as queen over all the other virgins.

There are 2 Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah, when no fire fell, only water, a symbol of the Spirit of Christ. Notice that MARRIAGE is listed in the activities of that day. The 1st Rapture is when no fire falls and the Spirit of Christ comes. It is when the 5 wise virgins of Mt. 25:1f go with the Bridegroom when he comes. In II Cor. 11:2, Paul said, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN to Christ." The 5 wise virgins go wiith Christ as their Bridegroom. The 5 foolish virgins get let behind at the 1st Rapture, because they do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies).

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. No marriage is listed. All but the 144,000 "virgins" seem to have lost their standing as the Bride of Christ. The Bride, like Eve, is taken out of the body of the 2nd Adam. What is left is the remnant of the Body of Christ. In "the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded (but no marriage is listed); But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, AND DESTROYED THEM ALL" (Lu. 17:28,29).

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, no fire falls. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, fire falls. They are not the same event. Please don't lose your standing as part of the Bride of Christ. Christ will come before the Tribulation for the Bride and at the end of the shortened Tribulation for the rest of the Body of Christ, just before the fire falls when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

The 1st Rapture is before the 1st seal is opened. This group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

The 2nd Rapture is between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. This group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Those of the 1st Rapture did not have to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The Philadelphians are not told to repent, the Laodiceans are told to repent. If they don't, they will be chastised (Rev. 3:19). The Philadelphians are kept "FROM" the trial that is to come upon the whole Earth (Rev. 3:10). The lukewarm Laodiceans are literally "emesai," vomited out of the mouth of Christ. In Rev. 3:16, Jesus said, "I will spue (emesai) thee out of my mouth." He will take them to Heaven the 2nd time, as he will the 5 foolish virgins, but they will not be part of the Bride of Christ.

We all need to take heed and use I Jn. 1:9 to be sure we are wise virgins. It says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Then we are wise virgins, filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit and ready to go with the Bridegroom when he comes for us. We only get one chance at this "PRIZE" Paul was working for. In I Cor. 9:27, Paul said, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." The Laodiceans are castaways, foolish virgins spued out of his mouth, when the Bridegroom comes for his wise virgin Bride.

The foolish Laodicean virgins are like the man who was found not wearing the white robe of righteousness, which is the wedding garment, at the wedding feast in Mt. 22:11-14. He was cast outside the door that is set before the Philadelphians in Rev. 3:8. It says, "cast him into outer darkness (lit., outside the door darkness); there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN." We want to be with Christ, "and they that are with him are called, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL" (Rev. 17:14).

The 2nd Rapture is for the remnant of the Body of Christ, not the rib taken out of his side for the Bride, as Eve was taken out of the body of the 1st Adam.

At the time of the 1st Rapture there is a separation of the Philadelphian wise virgins and the Laodicean foolish virgins. Now "the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17)." Please don't get left behind. Be ready to meet our wonderful Bridegroom as a wise virgin. Agape

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RABBIS MEET TO PONDER MOUNT TEMPLE, 9-4-00. Haaretz News reports: A committee of rabbis named by the Chief Rabbinate to examine the issue of building a synagogue on the Temple Mount is slated to meet tomorrow for the first time....Two main approaches to the issue will be deliberated. One suggestion is for a synagogue on the outskirts of the Temple Mount, over the Golden Gate, in such a way that access would not be through the wall but over it....A second suggestion would be for a synagogue within the Temple Mount site under an agreement with Muslim states and the Palestinian authority.
Rabbis who support a formal Jewish presence at the site tend toward setting a synagogue near Mograbi gate, between Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock.

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