Pro and Con 592

Posted 9-6-00

Incoming email

I saw this on the JVI News site and thought you might find the wording interesting. God bless you.
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POPE DECLARES VATICAN 'MOTHER' OF ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, 9-3-00
AP reports: One of Pope John Paul II's closest aides has written to bishops worldwide declaring that the Catholic church is the "mother" of other Christian churches, a move which could hurt Vatican efforts toward unity with other believers....

Note: Wonder why Pius IX was chosen to be Beatified?
Los Angeles Times, 9-4-00: "2 Popes Beatified--1 Loved, 1 Loathed," by Richard Boudreaux
VATICAN CITY--In a choice reflecting the complex spirit of his own reign, Pope John Paul II on Sunday beatified an odd couple of predecessors--the autocratic, reactionary 19th century Pope Pius IX and the modernizing 20th century Pope John XXIII....the favorite of a crowd that applauded him as "il papa buono"--the good pope. Many worshipers said they knew little or nothing about Pius IX, even though his rule, from 1846 to 1878, remains the longest of any pontiff since St. Peter founded the church. For those who know papal history, the contrast couldn't be more striking.

The son of an Italian count, imperious Pius clung tenaciously to the centuries-old Papal States until Italian nationalist armies abolished the church's temporal kingdom in 1870, But he strengthened the papacy itself, PROCLAIMING PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. (emphasis mine)

Incoming email and my interspersed comments

Re: Gap theory...
> > I have studied deeply. I had to convince myself, you know. I found no way that your position could stand.

I am glad you have studied deeply - and I am also studying deeply. But what did you have to convince yourself of? From what I have heard, the Gap theory only came about 150 years ago - about the time that Darwin had his theory and theologians of the day tried to get the Bible to fit the theory of the day. The more I look into this, the more a young earth fits what the Bible says.

***From Marilyn: I only believe what I think the scriptures indicate. It doesn't matter when the Gap theory came about. I arrived at what I believe because of my studies of Scripture, not what anyone else said. What I needed to convince myself of was whether all of Gen. 1 took place in 6 literal days or not. I first decided that the days were 24-hour days because the plants would have died if the night was 500 years long. Then I realized that there was a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 2, else why would the Spirit of God need to "move" (brood) over the face (i.e., the surface) of the waters to relax them (i.e., melt them)?

***Isa. 45:18 says, "thus saith the LORD that created (bara, to create a new thing) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, to mould into a form, as a potter) the earth and made (asah, dressed, fashioned, prepared) it; he hath established (kun, formed, established) it, he created (bara, to create a new thing) it NOT in vain (tohu, ruin), he formed (yatsar, to mould into a form as a potter) it to be inhabited."

> > In Gen. 1:2, all the land was under water, "and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." By the third day, "God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear." I think an asteroid, a chunk of Rahab, impacted Earth, blasted the material off that became the Moon, and in the process dug the Pacific Basin as the "ONE PLACE" for the waters to flow into so the dry land would appear. How do you think the "ONE PLACE" for the waters was fashioned (asah)?

This would put that asteroid impact around day 3, or else the water was held in place from day one until the third day. Either way it doesn't fit scripture.

***Much of the water was probably frozen. In Gen. 1:2, " the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The word translated "moved" is "rachaph," to brood, by impl. to be relaxed. It can be used of birds warming their eggs. Though running slowly into the Pacific Basin, it may have let go and rushed into the PLACE on the 3rd day, when God said, "Let the waters under the heaven be GATHERED together unto ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear" (Gen. 1:9)....

Oh - and that one place - many people believe that before the flood, the earth was pretty much one continent. I believe that an asteroid hit the earth and that is what triggered the flood of Noah's day. That is why we have those deep trenches in the ocean going around the whole earth. This asteroid is what triggered the fountains of the great deep.

***I too think that the continents divided after Noah's flood (1656 AH), actually after Peleg was born in 1757 AH. Gen. 10:25 is clear: "Peleg; for in his days was the EARTH DIVIDED."

> >Then why do we find trilobites in the fossil record? They are not present on Earth today....

There is also at least one case of a trilobite fossil that is squished under a human sandal. You can even see the stitching around the sole. Evolutionists and old-earthers say that they were laid down first. However, with all that water, it is possible to sort organisms by size. Many experiments have been done showing this to be possible which places like Berkley would omit. That is one of their tactics.

***Trilobites are extinct today. If they were on Earth in Noah's day, it would seem that they would be present today.

Why do we find dinosaur bones in the earth? Well, they existed at the same time as Adam and Noah. They even existed after the flood, and there may be some around today in the deep jungles of the world.

***Adam was given dominion over dinosaurs? I find that hard to imagine. Gen. 1:28 says, "God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and SUBDUE IT: and HAVE DOMINION over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and OVER EVERY LIVING THING THAT MOVETH upon the earth.

***What catastrophe wiped out the dinosaurs after the Flood?

Job 40:15 describes behemoth - with a tail like a cedar. Does that describe any animal that you know besides a dinosaur?

***The Hippo. It does not say the tail is as big as a cedar. Job 40:17 says, "He MOVETH his tail like a cedar." A cedar sways in the wind.

Why doesn't the Bible say dinosaur? Well, the term wasn't even invented until the 1800's, so when the KJV was made, they used a different word - dragon.

***Dragon is the symbol of Satan. Rev. 12:9 says, "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

How do you know that dinosaurs and saber-tooth tigers weren't on the ark? Does the Bible give an exhaustive list of everything brought to the ark? It wasn't until after the flood that the animals were made to be afraid of man.

***Dinosaurs and saber-tooth tigers are not on the Earth today. Don't you think they would be if they were preserved on the Ark?

Genesis 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. So this implies that before the flood there wasn't fear of Noah by the animals. They were friendly. :-)

> >No fact in geologic history is so startling as the abrupt extermination of earth's inhabitants. There are cuttlefish that were overcome so quickly that they did not release their ink, bivalves that did not have time to close their shells, sharks that were obviously swimming at burial, fish that could not have been dead when closely packed in burial for they are curled with spread fins as if drawn up in horror. How did Noah's flood accomplish this death and burial of sea creatures?

This is true - and an asteroid that triggered the fountains of the great deep could easily have caused all this. I think that it hit on the opposite side of the earth from where the Ark was.

> >Have you ever studied the fossil record left in ancient amber? There are extinct life forms preserved in it. How could they have gotten in there after Adam was put on Earth? or after Noah's flood, if that is when you think the fossil record was first formed?

Why couldn't they have gotten there after Adam? Or after Noah?

***Because they are extinct. Some things seem to have become extinct in our time, but most that were on the Ark are still here.

> >I agree. The Grand Canyon could have been cut rapidly too if the waters were all rushing pell mell into the "PLACE" God made for the seas. The walls flanking the Colorado River are striated in the Grand Canyon. The walls were obviously formed before the catastrophic flooding. Those walls had to have existed in striated condition before the canyon was cut. How could that have all happened at Noah's flood.>>

Here's how the current theory goes. The flood waters receded leaving behind huge inland lakes on the continents. Shortly after the flood (hundreds of years maybe), these lakes broke through on different parts of the world. That is what carved out the Grand Canyon. Young earth creationists believe that there were post-flood catastrophes as well. Another thing is huge amounts of water on top of glaciers which bust through an ice dam.

> >The Bible doesn't say that the Moon was created on day 4. The word "bara," create, is only used for the creation in the beginning, for the creation of animal life, and for the creation of man. All the other times in Gen. 1, the word used is "asah," to make, to fashion from existing materials. The Sun, Moon, and stars were already there. All that had to take place was for the smoky atmosphere to be cleared enough so they could be seen.

Huh? How can you translate the word "asah" as to mean moving the smoky atmosphere out of the way?

Asah means make, re-fashion. It does not mean create. Re-fashioning could indicate clearing the atmosphere.

You are saying that God didn't have to make the moon on day 4 - as the Bible says? God used the existing material from day one and formed it into the moon, the planets, and the stars. There was no atmosphere blocking site of these and God cleared the air so people could see the light from them. God made the moon on day 4, not made the sky clear enough to see the sun, moon and stars. The sun, moon and stars weren't there until God made them on day 4.

***Jer. 31:35 says, "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth THE SUN FOR LIGHT by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which DIVIDETH THE SEA when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name."

***Doesn't it sound like the Sun is how the light of Gen. 1:3 came to be? There was darkness upon the face of the deep in v. 2, then light in v. 3. Verse 14 says the lights in the firmament of heaven are "FOR DAYS." Then, wasn't the light of DAY 1 the light of the Sun?

***Job 26:10-13 (KJV) says, "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at HIS REPROOF. He DIVIDETH THE SEA with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud (rahab). By his spirit he hath garnished (shiphrah, made brightness) the heavens; his hand hath formed (chuwl, to be hurled or whirled onto something, as with a whirlwind, twisted, pierced, formed) the crooked (bariyach, fugitive, fleeing) serpent.

***Isa. 42:5 (KJV) says, "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created (bara, create a new thing) the heavens, and stretched (expanded) them out (probably making Mars and Jupiter seem farther apart than the other planets); he that spread forth (raqa, to pound the earth, hammer, beat, expand by hammering) THE EARTH, AND THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF IT (THE MOON?); he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein."

> >He blotted them from view by the thick dark smoky atmosphere. He did not have to recreate anything in the heavens. Job 38:9 says that he made "THICK DARKNESS A SWADDLINGBAND" for Earth. He did it when he "BRAKE UP FOR IT," the sea, his "DECREED PLACE" (Job 38:10).

This thick darkness is also explained in the book linked above. In no way does that have to mean a thick smoky atmosphere. However, if your theory is correct, then how did the plants survive on day three if there was a thick smoky atmosphere until day 4 when God cleared the smoke away?

***Plants will not die if they have overcast thick enough to not see the heavenly bodies for several days. Otherwise, they would die in stormy weather.

> >The word translated "world" is "kosmos," orderly arrangement of things. The ancient kosmos was "destroyed" before Adam. Since Adam, this present kosmos has been in operation. It existed between Adam and Noah as well as between Noah and today. This kosmos began to operate on its own when God rested on the 7th day of refashioning Earth to make it a fit habitat for man. This kosmos is the one that man is operating in. It lasts at least 7000 years.

Where in the Bible does it mention an ancient kosmos? This is just your theory as far as I can tell. Other theories fit the Bible much better than this one.

***II Peter 3:5-7 says, " THIS THEY ARE WILLINGLY IGNORANT OF, that by the word of God THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the WORLD (KOSMOS) that THEN WAS (Gen. 1:1), being overflowed with water, PERISHED (apollumi, TO DESTROY FULLY, i.e., the old kosmos was fully destroyed): But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW (SINCE GEN. 1:2f), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

> >I think there was a terrific catastrophe when the Moon was shucked out of Earth. The magnetic poles flip flopped. Iridium, microtectites, shocked quartz, sanidine, stishovite (formed only by impact) and soot were deposited. Coal, petroleum and fossils were formed.

The magnetic poles flip-flopped? You have proof of this? From what I have heard, the magnetic fields simply change in strength, they don't reverse.

***There is proof. If I remember right, it was the ship, the Glomar Challenger, the one that has the little sub Alvin to take men down to look at the ocean floor, that dragged an instrument to measure magnetism back and forth in the Pacific. The charts produced show clearly that the magnetic poles flip-flopped periodically. Also, when fluid rock solidifies, it's iron particles record the present magnetic pole. The record in the rocks proves that the magnetic poles flip-flopped. This shows that Laytonville, CA limestone formations were formed about 17 degrees southern latitude. Just south of Laytonville, rock deposited at 18-25 degrees north latitude is found. Something drastic happened to bring the former that far north.

***On page 141 in The Earth and its Environment, by Hesse and McDonald, it says,"...the ocean floor is composed of relatively YOUNG MATERIAL, geologically speaking....As the new crustal rock was formed, it was magnetized by the earth's magnetic field, thus providing a history of sea-floor spreading. This history was based on the discovery that the EARTH'S MAGNETIC FIELD HAD REVERSED ITSELF A NUMBER OF TIMES during the earth's geologic past, forming matched strips of alternately normal and reversed magnetized rock on either side of the mid-ocean ridges."

***In Science Magazine, Vol. 205, p. 1115-1118, 14 Sept 1979, in the article "How is New Ocean Crust Formed?," by Richard Kerr, it says, "Earth's MAGNETIC FIELD REVERSES ITS DIRECTION periodically over geological time, leaving its imprint in parallel magnetic stripes in the crust."

I also believe that an asteroid hit the earth, but it triggered the flood of Noah's day. Noah didn't see it, so would never have seen the fire from it. He was in the ark after God told him to come into the ark.

***If the impacting body was large enough to cause Noah's flood, it would have spewed a swaddlingband of smoke around the world as the globe rotated. We are not given a hint that this happened then.

> >Please explain how all those things COULD happen at the beginning of Noah's flood. If they had, there would have been an asteroid impact in Noah's day. That can't be. It would paint the wrong picture of the Pre-Trib Rapture that is as the days of Noah. Fire and brimstone fell in the days of Lot to depict the 2nd Rapture, but none fell in the days of Noah. Lu. 17:27 tells of the days of Noah: "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." Lu. 17:28 tells of the days of Lot: " the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all."

I have explained how it could have happened as part of the flood of Noah's day. However, I don't see it affecting the Rapture view (Which I concur with, btw. :::grin:::). An asteroid hit the opposite side of the earth, ripped the crust causing the water from under the plates to geyser up to about 20 miles or so. There was a lot of water down there before the flood...

> >The same passage in the NEB reads, "Awake, awake, put on your strength, O arm of the LORD, awake as you did long ago in days gone by, Was it not you who hacked the Rahab in pieces and ran the dragon through? Was it not you who dried up the sea?"

Maybe this happened just before Noah entered the ark?

***Jer. 31:35 (KJV) says, "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which DIVIDETH THE SEA when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name." This sounds like the dividing of the sea was back in the days when he ordained that the Sun, Moon and stars were to be "for seasons, and for days, and years" (Gen. 1:14).

> >The Lamsa Bible says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake as in the ancient days, as in the generations of old. Surely it was thou that didst DECREE A SEVERE SENTENCE THAT DIDST SLAY THE DRAGON. It was thou that didst dry the sea, the waters of the great deep."

But the dragon isn't slayed yet... I thought that happened as part of the tribulation...

***It doesn't say he is slain in the Tribulation. The KJV of Isa. 51:9 says, "hath cut (split) Rahab, and wounded (chalal, to bore, by impl. to wound, slay) the dragon." The dragon is Satan (Rev. 12:9). He will be chained after the Second Advent (Rev. 20:2).

***Job 26:13, in the Lamsa Bible, says, "By his spirit he manages the heavens; his hand slew the fleeing serpent." Green's Interlinear says, "His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."

***What if Satan had a physical body when he was on his planet Rahab? Psa. 104:4 says, "Who maketh (asah, re-fashion, not bara, create a new thing) his angels spirits."

I hope this helps! God Bless!

Incoming email

FWD from LynMize. Interesting excerpt from his email to Mark:

The apostasy is probably the most misunderstood event in the Bible, because of the gross mistranslation of the transliterated Greek word apostasia as "falling away." This same Greek word is used five times in the New Testament in Mark 10:4; Matt. 19:7; Matt. 5:31; Acts 21:21; and 2 Thess. 2:3. It is translated "divorcement" in the first three, "departure" in the fourth, and "falling away" in the fifth. Divorcement or departure would be an accurate translation, but falling away is completely without merit. A better translation according to the above Scriptures would be "separation." The following is the definition of divorcement straight out of the American Heritage Dictionary:

di·vorce·ment (dą-vôrs"m…nt, -v˝rs"-) n. Complete separation.

Divorcement would also be a highly appropriate translation of apostasia, as in the first three instances, since it is a time that Christ will "put away" those in the Church who have been unfaithful....

Go to the following for more information on http://www.thefirstfruits.org/2ndcoming/separat.htm" The Separation (Firstfruits Rapture) Best Regards

Excerpt from my reply to Lyn Mize

In II Thess 2:2, "day of Christ" in the KJV really should read "day of the Lord," as in the NIV and most other translations made after the KJV. The KJV was issued in 1611.

Although it had been presented to the Patriarch of Alexandria in 1078, the Alexandrine Codex was not presented to King Charles the First until 1628. Tischendorf did not find the Sinaitic Codex at the Convent of St. Catherine on Mt. Sinai until 1844 and 1859. Neither of these valuable MSS was available to the translators of the KJV. Both say, "day of the Lord." So does the Vatican Codex, 1475 or 1481. So do these editions, Griesbach, 1805; Lachmann, 1842-1850; Tischendorf, Eighth Ed., 1865-1872; Tregelles, 1857-1872; Alford, 1868-1870; and Wordsworth, 1870.

I think that II Thess. 2:2,3 means that the millennial Day of the Lord will not come until the Pre-Trib Rapture comes first, and the man of sin, the False Prophet, is "revealed" (apokalupto, to take off the cover) when he and the Beast confirm the covenant as the Tribulation begins.

From Incoming email

With only 6 days warning, asteroid 2000 QW7, which originated in the Asteroid Belt between Mars and Jupiter, hurtled past the Earth within 2.4 million miles of the Earth, only twelve times further away than the moon, on Sept. 1, 2000. It was detected at Cornell University's Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico.

"This is a very important object," said Eleanor Helin, principal investigator at Nasa's Near Earth Asteroid Tracking system (Neat), on Maui, Hawaii. "It's so bright that astronomers can track it now and through to the end of the year. It's a bit of a mystery why we haven't seen this one before." Asteroids are classified as PHAs, potentially hazardous asteroids, if they are larger than a couple of hundred meters across, and have orbits within 4.65 million miles of the Earth.

In an article in the London Times, "Asteroid gives Earth a cosmic 'close shave'," Mark Henderson, Science correspondent, wrote of the Danger from outer space.
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Gravitational nudges by the Earth, Mars or Jupiter could alter their orbits, and set them on a collision course with our planet. Any such impact would be devastating to life on Earth, and could wipe out up to a quarter of the human population. An asteroid seven miles wide that hit the Yucatan peninsula 65 million years ago, in what is now Mexico, is widely accepted to have caused the extinction of the dinosaurs and three quarters of the other species living on the planet....

Scientists say that if an asteroid the size of 2000 QW7 - which is nine times as large as the Tunguska asteroid - were to hit the Earth, the devastation it would cause would be frightening. If it landed in the Atlantic Ocean, everything within two miles would be vapourised and the east coast of the United States and the west coast of Europe would be swept by tidal waves. Molten debris would continue to rain down for weeks after the impact, and dust particles would cause effects similar to a nuclear winter.

Incoming email

Re: judgment, not rapture
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your fabulous website. You may not be a prophet (you have never claimed to be one) but you see things (the meat) in scripture with such remarkable clarity and you are able to make it digestible for those of us less gifted.

Regarding P&C 586, an incoming e-mail contained the following:
2) Why do you use the two women in Matt 24.40 as a picture of the rapture? I think it is a description of being taken for judgment, and it actually says so if you take the verse in context... 'As it was in the days of Noah...they knew not until the flood came AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY.' Where did they all go? To heaven? No, they were judged. 'Them' relates to the unbelievers not Noah...continuing 'So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN (i.e.in judgment) and the other left. Watch therefore for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come' (the second coming not the rapture).

This is one of the few passages where I think Jack Van Impe has it right and you don't. He believes this refers to judgment, not the rapture and he proves it with scripture.

Matt 24:40-41: Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (KJV)

What this is saying is half the world's population will be lost. This does not occur at the rapture, it does occur in judgment. How will half of mankind be lost? Rev 6:7-8: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (KJV) Using the world's current population of about 6 billion, this number would then be reduced by 1/4 to approximately 4.5 billion people.

Rev 9:17-18: And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. (KJV) Reducing the remaining 4.5 billion people on earth by 1/3, you are left with 3 billion people or half of the original population of the planet, taken in judgment, not the rapture.

Please reconsider your position on this passage...AGAPE God Bless You and your loved ones...hope to be seeing you soon in the clouds

My reply

Thanks for the kind words. > > What this is saying is half the world's population will be lost That is an assumption, but it doesn't say that. To me, Mt. 24:37-41 says, "as the days of Noe were (when Noah and his family were taken up), so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be (at the Rapture). For as in the days that were before the flood THEY (the unbelievers) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And (the unbelievers) knew not until the flood came, and took THEM (the unbelievers) all away; so shall also the coming (at the Rapture) of the Son of man be. Then (at the Rapture) shall two be in the field (world); the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women (symbol of 2 religious groups) shall be grinding at the mill (making wheat into flour); the one shall be taken (the wise virgin), and the other (the foolish virgin) left. Watch therefore (believers): for ye (believers) know not what hour your Lord (the believer's Lord) doth come" (at the Rapture). This taking some and leaving some does not happen at the Second Advent, only at the 2 Raptures. The 2nd Rapture is 7 Jewish months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). If a Rapture were to take place at the Second Advent, there would be no need for the Judgment of the Nations. The separation of the sheep and goats would have already taken place at the Second Coming. Actually, at the Second Advent, ALL saints return WITH Christ (Zech. 14:5). The whole congregation of saints will have been in Heaven 7 months before this, attending the "general assembly" (Heb. 12:23) and the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive their rewards (Rev. 11:18). There are 2 Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell that day, only tons of water, which is a symbol of the Spirit of Christ. Job 37:6 says, "For HE saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to THE GREAT RAIN OF HIS STRENGTH." The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Lu. 17:29). The 1st Rapture takes place before the 1st seal is opened in Rev. 6. The 2nd Rapture takes place in Rev. 7:14 between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 6:12; 8:1). Agape

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