Pro and Con 599

Posted 9-15-00

Note: Here is something I keep wondering about. I have Kerrod's Star Guide (publ. 1993) open to the picture of Eta Carinae. Beside it, I have the picture of Eta Carinae that appeared in Discover, Jan., 2000. The 2 pictures are so very different, only the Lord could have brought about the change so it resembles a wedding table decoration. That is a miracle to me. The blue star is in the largest diffused Nebula in the sky, much larger than the Orion Nebula. It's lobes are about the same size as our entire Solar System. This thing is huge, 2 light years across, and spectacular. It is visible to the naked eye and splendid in binoculars--to those who can see the southern sky. It is in Carina, the Keel of the ship ARGO (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS). The article in Discover said that the next space- telescope observations of Eta Carinae were scheduled for last Feb. or Mar. If you see any recent releases, please let me know.

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Re: Ascension day, day of the rapture of the Bride?
I was meditating on the Word today and some thoughts came to me that would seem to confirm what you have said about Ascension day being a good possibility for the day the rapture might occur.

We know that 40 is the number of testing. I won't go into all the examples in the Word that verifies this. Suffice it to say that if this final generation started in 1967, as the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24 indicates, then the completion of the testing period for the church would end in 2007.

The two exceptions to the 40 year period of testing would be Jesus who was raptured in his 33rd year and the segment of the church that will BE THE BRIDE, who are one with Him, who if raptured on ascension day (the aniversary of the day Jesus ascended) would be in year 33 from the year that the last generation started (1967).

Here's what hit me like a ton of bricks. After Jesus was raptured there were 10 days that elapsed before the day of Pentecost arrived. From that day on things changed for the church. They saw three things occurring from the day of Pentecost on.

First they saw a great harvest of souls. That very day they saw 3,000 souls added to the kingdom. Later in Acts it says they "turned their world upside down". If the rapture of the Bride occurs on ascension day and the tribulation starts ten days later on the day of Pentecost, I believe what is repeatedly referred to in the Word as the "latter rain harvest" will begin. I have said what follows in the next two paragraphs in another post, in speaking of the coming harvest in the 2300 days of the shortened tribulation, but it bears repeating.

It is interesting to me that in Revelation 5 it mentions a specific number in heaven after the rapture of the Bride. Verse 11 says "And I beheld, . . . the elders (the mature ones, the bride): and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." If there is a literal significance to that number, and I personally believe there is, then ten thousand times ten thousand equals one hundred million and a thousand times a thousand equals 1 million. So quantitatively this represents a bride that numbers 100 million plus how ever many more millions, thousands of thousands represent (probably between 103 million and 199 million). That number sounds large, but compared to the over 6 billion on the earth, and the many that have already lived and died, . . . it is a very small percentage. (200 million is only 3.3 % of 6 billion) Contrast that verse in chapter 5 with the account of how many are in heaven in chapter 7 after the second rapture of the tribulation saints has occurred. Revelation 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands". Here at the end of the shortened tribulation after the tribulation saints are raptures, it doesn't say a specific number of individuals are there, but that the number in heaven is so great that no one can number them!! Also if you look at the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 there is only one, the Philadelpians, that fits the profile of the Bride and are promised to be given the name of the New Jerusalem (the name of the bride in chapter 21). Obviously there are six churches that will wake up and begin to evangelize during the tribulation and as the Laodicians are told "go buy gold tried in the fire (of the tribulation)".

That leads me to believe that the great later rain harvest of souls that everyone is expecting, will not occur before the rapture of the Bride, but during the tribulation when the large majority of the believers that are left behind, begin to do the great commission. Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." End of what? End of the shortened tribulation when all of the body of Christ are in heaven, both the Bride and the tribulation saints. Evidently at the beginning of the tribulation, the foolish virgins, the believers that weren't ready at the first rapture of the Bride, got their lamps burning again and became the overcomers that they were supposed to be all along. Psalm 40:3 says that "many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD". What is the "it" that they will see? Verse 2 describes the rapture, . . . being taken out of a horrible pit (earth) out of the miry clay (our bodies) to have our feet set on the rock (heaven) to sing a new song. The major harvest will happen after the Bride is gone. Then "many" will trust in the Lord.

Just as the early rain of the spirit of God began on Pentecost, the latter rain outpouring could begin on Pentecost, the very first day of the tribulation period.

The second thing that the early church experience were signs and wonders. If the tribulation starts on Pentecost, we can expect mighty signs and wonders. The two witnesses will not be the only ones appropriating supernatural power. Historically, whenever there has been a great harvest of souls there have been accounts of many miracles. The last thing that Jesus told his disciples before he was raptured was that "these signs shall follow them that believe". Evidently there will be a lot of the church that are left that will start believing, 10 days after the shock of being left behind subsides. Especially during the period after the fith seal is opened and they cannot take the mark of the beast, like Elijah in the wilderness they will need signs and wonders just to stay alive.

The final thing that intensified starting on the day of Pentecost was persecution. Acts records how Saul was used to hunt them down and how Stephen was martyred. Although, Christians undergo persecution now (in greater proportion in other parts of the world), starting on the day of Pentecost, if that is the day the tribulation begins, persecution will intensify globally. It will continue to intensify until toward the last of the shortened tribulation the blood of the martyred saints will be crying out for vindication.

I just think the parallel between the rapture of Jesus after 33 years and the rapture of the Bride after 33 years from the start of the final generation and the events that Pentecost brought on in the church earlier and could bring on again should this Pentecost start that 2300 day shortened tribulation that ends on Sept. 13th 2007 . . . is uncanny! What do you think?
Your brother in Jesus

My reply

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Ascension Day has a great chance of being a type of the Rapture. Christ is the Head of the Body of Christ. He ascended 40 days after Firstfruits. It would be appropriate for the rest of the Body of Christ to ascend 40 days after Firstfruits also.

> > if raptured on ascension day (the aniversary of the day Jesus ascended) would be in year 33 from the year that the last generation started (1967).

1967 + 33 = 2000. However, Jesus was 33 1/2, which could carry over until 2001.

> > After Jesus was raptured there were 10 days that elapsed before the day of Pentecost arrived. From that day on things changed for the church.

There are other parallels too. Jesus left the disciples, but told them to wait for power "after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be WITNESSES unto me" (Acts. 1:8). I think that as the Tribulation begins, the Holy Spirit will anoint Moses and Elijah, God's two WITNESSES for their 1260-day ministry during the first half of the Tribulation. In Jn. 16:7, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Since Jesus went away 10 days before the Holy Spirit descended to empower the witnesses in 30 AD, it would be appropriate for the Holy-Spirit-indwelt Body of Christ to be taken away 10 days before the Holy Spirit descends to empower the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost.

> > in Revelation 5 it mentions a specific number in heaven after the rapture of the Bride. Verse 11 says "And I beheld, . . . the elders (the mature ones, the bride): and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands."

I think it makes sense for those that are numbered to be the Bride of Christ. The 144,000 are of this group also. Probably all those not numbered are not members of the Bride group.

> > Just as the early rain of the spirit of God began on Pentecost, the latter rain outpouring could begin on Pentecost, the very first day of the tribulation period.

It seems likely since the two witnesses must be empowered for their 1260 days of prophesying.

> > If the tribulation starts on Pentecost, we can expect mighty signs and wonders. The two witnesses will not be the only ones appropriating supernatural power.

There wereabout 120 upon whom the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost in 30 AD (Acts. 1:15). Maybe about 120 will also be empowered by the Holy Spirit for their ministry during the Tribulation.

> > Evidently there will be a lot of the church that are left that will start believing, 10 days after the shock of being left behind subsides.

Maybe their weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 24:51) will last those 10 days until the Holy Spirit descends to empower them for their ministry during the Tribulation. At that point, they will probably be galvanized for action as the disciples were in the 1st century.

> > starting on the day of Pentecost, if that is the day the tribulation begins, persecution will intensify globally.

Yes. Rev. 13:7 says, "it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." That starts at the beginning of the Tribulation.

I agree, next Ascension Day now seems a likely day for the Pre-Trib Rapture. It fits Song of Sol. 2:10-14 too. Winter will be past. The latter rains of Nisan will be over. There will be green figs and firstripe grapes. It will be in the time of grain harvest. The Rapture could easily be 10 days before the 10 kings of Rev. 17:12 are crowned as the Tribulation begins. Those 10 days could be days of trial, regret, weeping and gnashing of teeth, for those left behind, coming to an end as the Holy Spirit empowers them for witnessing during the Tribulation. Agape

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From: terry j. malone. Re: Eze. 38 and 39 timing
Nobody really knows when anything will occur during the tribulation period. We just know that what is written will happen. The order is not confirmed. The Russian attack may not even occur during the tribulation period. It might take place toward the end of the millennium. I would say that Ezekiel 38-39 could occur during the tribulation or the millennium. Either view has there valid points. One thing is for certain, nobody knows.
Pastor Malone

My reply

Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in THE FIRE OF MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

This DAY OF GOD'S WRATH arrives between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals on the Title Deed of the Earth, which is given to Christ in Rev. 5 after the Pre-Trib Rapture. The 6th seal of this Title Deed is broken in Rev. 6:12. Then 6:17 says, "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME." Then, the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. In 8:8, the "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5; Eze. 25:16; Job 20.23; Amos 8:9; Psa. 91:6). This causes the fishes to shake, all the men of the world to shake, and every wall to fall worldwide. I see no other time that Eze. 38 could possibly take place. Agape

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Re: P&C 598
The symbol on the front page of your web-site is NOT a pentagram. A pentagram is a satanic symbol that looks like an up-side-down star (it actually resembles a goat w/horns). The symbol on your page is a star with a key. Perhaps it was meant to be the Star of David, but that has 6 sides, not 5, and the Key could possibly symbolize the key Jesus took from satan just before His resurrection. It is not satanic in any way. Hidden in Him

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Re: the "bow"
It was mentioned on your site recently, "...See the staff that the Pope is holding. Anyone that has studied the Roman religion knows that the Pope's staff is officially known as "the Papal bow."

I was a Catholic for 20 years and believe me I have studied Catholicism closely. The staff the pope holds is called a crozier, a symbol of his authority as a bishop (to guide his sheep). It is a shepherd's crook, it is not normally called a bow. The pope's has been stylized into a crucifix, and I believe it was created by a Reniassance sculptor, but the symbolism is that of a shepherd and his crook.

My reply

Thanks. I sure had never heard of it, and I read Hislop's Two Babylons. I think the bow is to represent a man of the cloth, a religious leader, just as The Ribbons are used in the gospel in the stars. Agape

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Re: Noah/Lot
God told Noah it was going to happen in seven days. He didn't shut him up as I also used to think, but he told him. His message was clear and unequivocal, "Seven days, Noah, and that's it." After Lot spent some time trying to defend God's messengers, he was told by the messengers, "Get out of town now, keep going and don't look back." Plain and clear.

Jesus says the rapture/departure will be as the days of Noah. I expect, then, a seven day warning with the rapture after those seven days just like the rain started seven days after the warning. Noah was not lifted up until after those seven days. Now, what could happen that would tell us for sure that we were seven days away from the rapture? Plus, we know from scripture that the wicked will not figure this out, only Christians that are looking/hoping/ready for the rapture. The final peace agreement is in a shambles. There are incidents of violence, threats, and posturing from all sides. Jerusalem is a stone around the neck of the world just as predicted. God said it is the center of the earth and right now everyone wants a piece of it. There is no solution to be had. If someone surfaces that finds the perfect solution, I am packing my mental bag for the rapture in seven days. I believe it will be a huge announcement the world over and Christians ready/looking for the blessed hope will definitely recognize it. I think it will be loud and clear just as Noah's warning was clear. I think you will have seven days to communicate with us on this web site. Noah had seven days to round up his family and the animals came into the ark. People paid little attention then and so it will be this time.

Your excellent work has all the dates past the rapture laid out. It is just this one date that eludes us. Noah didn't know exactly when either. He knew approximately as we do but God had to give him an exact time at the proper moment. This makes complete sense to me. You have always quoted scripture that says if we watch we will not be taken unawares. Won't those last seven days be something!

To the lady that mentioned your answering the same questions over and over: I have been with Marilyn on this site since shortly after she developed it. I have read the same questions over and over. Marilyn has a prolific brain so the words in the answers are never exactly the same. There have been, and are, times when I scroll through the answers. If I were Marilyn I would be tempted to say something like, "Go to Pro/Con 25 (whichever no.)." She has done that a few times but I think she loses track of where various answers are. So would I. There are so many of them now.

We all know the most important site on the web is this one. Israeli news sources are second for me. Put them together and watch for the blessed hope date. Love

My reply

Wheeooo! You just made my day. Thanks. And to top it off, the UPS just brought my 2 new books, that someone very nice ordered for me, at the best time, just before we have to go to Cardiac Rehab. I can sit there quietly and read while Ed exercises.

You are right that I don't know where certain answers are. In about 6000 pages of Pro and Cons, I don't have a clue. I may not even know the next day. Sometimes, I am working with 5 Pro and Cons, trying to fit things together to make about 30K each. I try adding an answer to one, and if it throws it over, I take it out and put it on the next one. After jockeying things around awhile to try to make it fit, I don't know where anything is for sure. Agape

Found on the web

A Gem for helping Jews accept Yahshua:
http://www.wincom.net/~mcunning/jew.html
"The Old Testament messianic prophecies were found to be uniquely fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of these prophecies, so that the possibility of their accidental convergence on any ordinary man is completely ruled out by the laws of probability.

"Some of the prophecies are so framed, in fact, as to preclude their fulfillment by anyone living after the first century A.D. For example, the patriarch Jacob said, in Genesis 49:10, "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come." The name "Shiloh" is a title of the Messiah, and the prophecy states that Judah's tribe would remain the chief tribe in Israel, in particular providing their kings, until Messiah would come. The prophecy must have been fulfilled prior to the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem in A.D. 70, by which time certainly all semblance of a sceptre had departed from Judah."

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Sponsored by JVIM. Intelligence Briefing

ISRAEIL PRIME MINISTER SEEKS TO END INFLUENCE OF RELIGIOUS LAW Sept. 13, 2000

The London Telegraph reported: "The Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, set out yesterday on a radical new agenda - known as a 'civil revolution' - designed to roll back the influence of religious leaders on daily life. Mr. Barak's plan, unveiled to almost universal denunciation as over-ambitious and divisive, aims to give focus to his struggling minority government, now that the prospects of a peace deal with the Palestinians appear to be growing ever dimmer. Instead of peace, Mr Barak is offering Israelis a lifestyle in tune with that of Europe and America, abandoning the 52-year-old status quo under which key aspects of life are governed by religious law. The changes include: Bringing in a civil marriage ceremony and ending the rabbis' monopoly on weddings. Currently it is impossible for marriages between Jews and non-Jews to be celebrated in Israel. Allowing buses to run on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, which would open the way for those who do not have cars to go to the beach. Ending the ban on Saturday flights by the national airline El Al…Closing the religious affairs ministry, which has been criticized for channeling money to politically connected Jewish organizations. Dropping the religion category from the identity card. The two million non-Jews in Israel say this makes them subject to discrimination. The proposals mark a U-turn by the prime minister, who has gone out of his way to appease religious parties in the hope of getting their support for a peace deal. But with the chances of a peace agreement put by Mr. Barak at less than 50 per cent, he is returning to his core constituency, the secular Left..."

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Re: Could 2001/5761 be the Jubilee?
Shalom. I was just wondering about your thoughts on the following: Israel won it's independence in May 1948, but according to: Leviticus 19:23, "And when ye shall come into the land, (Perhaps just like the Jews did after the holocaust of W.W.II) and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.", possibly indicating that the first three (3) years of modern Israel's existence wasn't kosher, so to speak. If we take 1951 as it's first "fruitful" year, and if we notice that Rosh HaShannah (Saturday, September 30, 2000) 5761 falls on a weekly Shabbat, then 1951 + 50 =- 2001 could be the jubilee year and year of rapture. September 30, 2000 is Rosh HaShannah, The Hebrew Feast of Trumpets, which we Jews hold to be the anniversary of the creation of the world. The extraordinary thing is that it coincides with the regular weekly Sabbath.

Scripturally and technically that is a little perplexing; for the CREATION-God's work-- to coincide with Shabbat (The day God rested from His labors). I believe the significance is that these tremendous confluent occurrence initiates the Jubilee year, for us it could mean the year of the rapture (my best estimate is the Feast of Firstfruits (Leviticus 23:11) in 2001.) of believers. Leviticus 25:9, "Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement (Yom Kippur) shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.". And Ezekiel 40:1, "In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.". And we know that Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 is all about the Temple, God's Holy Presence and reinstitution of the Levitical sacrificial system, during the Messiah's millennial reign. Thanks for your time.

Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim - Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. Y'varechecha Ad-nai v'yishim'rechecha, Ya'ayr Ad-nai panav alecha v'chunecha, Yisa Ad-nai panav alecha, v'yasaym l'cha shalom. The Lord bless you and keep you, The Lord make His Face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you. The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.

My reply

> > Rosh HaShannah (Saturday, September 30, 2000) 5761 falls on a weekly Shabbat, then 1951 + 50 =- 2001 could be the jubilee year and year of rapture.

I doubt that it is a real Jubilee year for Israel, though it could be the year of the Rapture. Israel was to keep the Jubilee the 50th year after the Exodus, after they had been in the land 10 years and the war was over. They had good reason to be jubilant too, for the men all got to go home to their families at that time.

The Jubilee fits well after Christ returns, for all of eretz Israel will be given back to the Israelites.

> > Feast of Trumpets, which we Jews hold to be the anniversary of the creation of the world. The extraordinary thing is that it coincides with the regular weekly Sabbath. Scripturally and technically that is a little perplexing; for the CREATION-God's work-- to coincide with Shabbat (The day God rested from His labors).

I agree with you closely on the anniversary of creation of this kosmos, orderly arrangement of things, but I think Creation ended as Shabbat began. I think Adam and Eve were put on Earth on Friday, Elul 29, probably Eve late in the day. Then at 6:00 PM, as the Feast of Trumpets began, this kosmos began to operate on its own, and then God could rest. I think that Saturday was Tishri 1, the very date on which Yahshua would be born later as the seed of the woman.

Gen. 1:31; 2:1-3 says, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the SIXTH DAY. Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, and ALL the host of them. And on the SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

I think Tishri 1 is considered "THE TIME OF LIFE" and a certain SEASON. Gen. 18:10,14 says, "I will certainly return unto thee according to THE TIME OF LIFE; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him....Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to THE TIME OF LIFE, and SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON" (Isaac, type of Yahshua, seed of the woman). II Kings 4:16,17 says, "About this SEASON, according to THE TIME OF LIFE, thou shalt embrace a son. And she said, Nay, my lord, thou man of God, do not lie unto thine handmaid. And THE WOMAN CONCEIVED, and bare a son AT THAT SEASON that Elisha had said unto her, according to THE TIME OF LIFE." Shalom and Agape

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