Pro and Con 600

Posted 9-18-00

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Re: Pro/con 599, Ascension Day
I think pro/con 599's suggestion that Ascension Day could be the rapture date makes a huge amount of sense. I have been jiggling with the numbers and dates and this is how I figure it. I am also putting in the 7 day warning I think all "looking up" Christians will recognize without a doubt . I started with your concrete date of May 28, 2001, as Pentecost and start of the tribulation and worked backward. Jump in if I screwed up:

Easter, resurrection, would have to be April 8. My calendar has April 15.
May 11, 7 day warning prepared Christians will recognize.
May 18, Ascension Day, Rapture day (40 days after resurrection).
This is 33 yrs, 11 mths., 23 days, after the June 10, 1967, end of six day war. Jesus was "about" 33 1/2 yrs. old when he died. Got the June 10th date off the internet.

Ten days of tribulation for left behind Christians. Could this "tribulation" be the personal inner chaos Christians left behind will experience rather than an outward attack on them? May 28, Tribulation begins, Holy Spirit descends on left behind Christians, they get their act together, Moses and Elijah begin their work.

All your other dates fall as they are already Biblically dictated. This looks right and falls right. Thanks to the person who sent that discussion of Ascension Day for the rapture. Love

My reply

> > Easter, resurrection, would have to be April 8. My calendar has April 15.

Resurrection Day, Nisan 16, 5761, is Mon., Apr. 9, 2000. Therefore Easter would be celebrated the next Sunday, which is Apr. 15, as your calendar says.

Ascension Day makes good sense to me because it fits Song of Sol. 2:10-14 and is still before when I think the Tribulation begins. Winter is past. The former and latter rains are past. There are green figs and firstripe grapes. The turtledoves have returned to Israel. They are there Apr. - Oct. If this passage applies to the Rapture, and I think it does, then the rains knock out from Tishri 1 to Nisan 30. The turtledove's absence knocks out from Oct. to Apr., including Cheshvan 17, when Noah entered the Ark, which is Nov. 15 this year.

James 5:7 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren (believers), unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." The early rain is the former rain, which starts Tishri 1. The latter rain starts Nisan 1. Winter is Israel's rainy season. It does not rain from the end of Nisan to Elul 29. Ascension Day is still spring. It fits. They rains are over, but summer has not yet begun.

I thought Pentecost made sense, but Ascension Day does too. Since the head of the Body of Christ, The Firstfruit, ascended that day, maybe the rest of the firstfruits will also ascend on that day. That is a powerful type.

Rev. 2:10 says to the church that is under persecution, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast SOME of you into PRISON, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." I take the PRISON literally. Agape

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From: Mark Copfer. To: Re: Does Being A Christian Guarentee You A Free Ticket To Heaven At The Rapture?

...After talking with Phil Rogers for several hours on the phone, and learning a whole lot more than what I thought I did :) I have come to the conclusion that Luke 21:34-36 means exactly what it says. And my interpretation of what I can see in those scriptures is that a whole lot of Christians are going to be left behind to endure the 7 year tribulation. I believe that just because you are saved, and a spirit filled Christian, does not mean you get a free ticket to heaven "at the Rapture". Yes, you are guarenteed Eternal Life when you are saved, but that is it. Luke 21:36 proves that Christians will be left behind.

36 Watch ye, "THEREFORE", and "PRAY ALWAYS" , that ye may be accounted worthy to escape "ALL" these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man. Now, the key words in the above passage are "THEREFORE" & "ALL" Jesus is talking to the Church, not the Jews or Israel. The word THEREFORE means it is a continuance of verse 34 and 35.

Think about this. If Christians are given a free ticket to heaven in the Rapture, then why is Jesus telling us to WATCH, and PRAY ALWAYS, that we may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things. If Jesus was talking to the Jews here, then the word ALL in the above verse means absolutly nothing, as the Jews would already be in the tribulation.

So, my conclusion on this, and after Phil Rogers opened my eyes to the scriptures on this, is that Millions of Christians will be left behind on earth at the time of the Rapture, simply because these Christians were NOT WATCHING, as God commanded us to do, and they are NOT PRAYING ALWAYS to escape ALL these things that SHALL come to pass. Meaning that they have not already passed. Those Christians that miss the Rapture will be those that were asleep, and NOT Watching.

Again, Jesus would not tell us to PRAY ALWAYS that we be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all things, if he didnt mean it. Christians are not given a free ticket to the rapture in my opinion...

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FWD: from Mark
From What Saith The Scripture
Let me begin by introducing myself. I was raised in the Baptist church and have been a Christian for 25 years. During this time I have been involved in various Christian service: teaching Sunday School, leading youth discipleship groups, participating in mission trips, participating in prayer groups, involved in women's ministry, etc.

"Having been raised in church, I have heard Revelation taught many times and have been taught about the Rapture. My entire teaching, AND belief has always been that the entire church, the Bride of Christ, all genuine believers in Jesus, will be raptured either prior to the tribulation or certainly before the worst of the tribulation.

"Early in the morning of October 25, 1997, I had the following dream.
"I was driving home, alone in a Volkswagen van, down a country road bordered by farmland. Ahead of me on either side lining the road were large eucalyptus trees. I looked ahead of me and saw a beautiful house that sat on the right hand side of the road just before the line of eucalyptus trees started. As I was looking at the house I saw, with my peripheral vision, to the left, on the horizon, what appeared to be a eucalyptus tree that was so large it reached all the way from the horizon as far into the sky as I could see. (I could see this far because the land was very flat.) When I looked closer I saw that it wasn't a tree at all but thousands of people in white moving up into the sky. I knew it was the rapture and I was terrified. I slammed on the brakes; the van turned end over end. I remember thinking, 'I should be hurt or killed' but instead I was standing on the side of the road with my arms in the air crying out to Jesus. Then I woke up, very shaken.

"I went downstairs to ask God what the dream meant. I couldn't understand why I was not in the rapture because I know I am a Christian. God showed me that on the side of the van was written the word 'carnality'. Then He reminded me of the Parable of the Ten Virgins. He told me several things and said, 'Do not listen to Satan's whispers. There are not many days left.'"

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I love your website, I keep hearing Sep 2000 as the month many scholars on the rapture have been saying could be the month. But then I hear 2001 by some others. It is all so exciting, could we really know within the exact month or are we just hoping too much? God Bless you

My reply

If we get past the Eve of Trumpets (Sept. 29) and Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 15), I'll be looking forward to the anniversary of Jesus' ascension. Ascension Day is 40 days after Firstfruits and 10 days before the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost that I think starts the 70th week of Daniel, Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001). Ten days before that would be Iyar 25, Fri., May 18. This would be counting Resurrection Day, Nisan 16, as day number one.

The 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:14) only fit the Feast of Weeks being on Sivan 6, not Sivan 7.

Here is a strange coincidence. Our possibilities, the Eve of Trumpets, Cheshvan 17 (when Noah entered the Ark and the Lord closed the door), and Iyar 25 are all on Friday. Will the Lord again work on Friday to take the greater Eve out of the side of the 2nd Adam as he did in Gen. 2:21,22? The Lord rested at 6:00 PM, as Saturday began, right after he made Eve out of Adam's rib. Will he again rest on Saturday after extracting the Bride of Christ from the Body of Christ? It would be true to the type.

Another thought. By using Adam's rib, not only was the picture of the Bride of Christ being taken out of the Body of Christ near his heart depicted, but Adam's DNA was utilized. Truly, Adam and Eve were of one flesh.

One thing leads to another. In turning to Gen. 2:21,22, I happened to look at 2:24. It says "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be (hayah) one (echad, united) flesh." When "hayah" is used, it shows that a change is involved. Otherwise Hebrew leaves out the forms of "to be" and lets the reader supply it. Therefore, I can better understand this if I say to myself that they shall BECOME united flesh. Now I can clearly see that the child of this pair truly becomes their united flesh, receiving genes from both parents. There sure is a lot of information in the Bible that speed reading won't reveal to us. Agape

My reply

I agree with you. Common sense tells me that if all believers were guaranteed a free ticket to go to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture, there would be no need for all the instructions on how to walk the Christian walk to even be in the Bible. The story of how to be saved would do it.

Some people say that the Laodiceans were never saved. I can't agree with that. A person has to be "in Christ" to be capable of being spued out of his mouth. Jesus also tells them, "As many as I LOVE, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." That is advise for the "CHURCHES" (Rev. 3:19,22).

Some also say that the parable of the 10 virgins has nothing to do with the Bride of Christ, that the virgins are bridesmaids. I can't agree with that, either. An account of the Bridegroom coming for the bridesmaids would not leave out the Bride. That makes no sense in my head. Who is to say that all bridesmaids are virgins? Mt. 24:10 says, "they that were ready went in with him (the Bridegroom) to the marriage: and the door was shut." What bridesmaid goes in with the bridegroom to the marriage and "the door was shut." That is the rightful place of the bride only.

Joel 2:16 doesn't say to let the bridesmaids go forth from their "chuppah." It says, "Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the BRIDE out of her closet (chuppah)." Behind that door is the BRIDE. In II Cor. 11:2, Paul said, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN to Christ." He wasn't talking about bridesmaids.

He was talking about "A CHASTE virgin" too. We want to qualify as "a chaste virgin," and therefore a wise virgin when the Bridegroom comes. We must "BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man" (the Bridegroom). The Lord himself said to pray this, and if we disregard his words, we might be woefully sorry. We should use I John 1:9, confess our sins so he can cleanse us of all unrighteousness. The Bride wears WHITE.

Rev. 19:7,8 (New Scofield) says, "the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath MADE HERSELF READY. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, CLEAN AND WHITE; for the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUSNESSES of saints." Agape

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when the earth had a canopy of water around it, pre-flood, wouldn't it have spinned faster, like a figure skater with their arms out, and then have spun faster, as it does today, with all that water closer to its center of gravity?...

My reply

It seems to me that since the atmosphere is not attached to the Earth, it's effect would not amount to much. The mass of Earth is so much greater, and it could spin inside the cloud canopy at a greater rate than the clouds. That faster spin is why the black clouds spread around the Earth like a swaddlingband, when the Lord "MADE (suwm, put up, set up, heaped up, changed; NOT 'bara,' created) the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it" (Job 38:9). The word transliterated as suwm/siym/sum/sim is translated "heaped up" in Job 36:13. It says, "But the hypocrites in heart HEAP UP wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them." This meaning fits Job. 38:9. The Lord heaped up the dark clouds that then spread around the Earth as it rotated. I think the Lord heaped up the dark clouds by means of an asteroid impact. Agape

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In P&C 599, an email titled, "Re: Ascension day, day of the rapture of the Bride?" appears to have several errors.

First, the writer refers to the end of the seven year tribulation as, "the completion of the testing period for the church." The tribulation is for the Jews, not the Church. The Church is removed before the tribulation. Gentiles left on earth who become true believes during the trib is a totally different subject.

The writer says:
It is interesting to me that in Revelation 5 it mentions a specific number in heaven after the rapture of the Bride. Verse 11 says "And I beheld, . . . the elders (the mature ones, the bride): and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands."

This number refers to the "many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders," of verse 11. This in no way refers to the Bride.

Verse 11: And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them [the many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders] was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11)

This is the same type of inadvertent mistake that is made with Rev 9.16. These horsemen are not the "Kings of the East" as most presume. These horsemen are the locusts of verse 7 in the same chapter. Give Ed my best, Agape always

My reply

> > The tribulation is for the Jews, not the Church

When we look at Dan. 9:27, it sure looks that way. However, when we look at Rev. 3:16, where the lukewarm Laodiceans are spued out of Christ's mouth, we find out that some members of the church are still here during the Tribulation. Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise believer) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

Here is the way I see the Tribulation. First, there seem to be three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews and the Age of the Church. Since the Age of the Jews has the Tribulation extension, it makes sense that all the ages have this same extension. Rev. 3:10 says it is the hour of trial "which shall come upon ALL the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." That takes this trial out of the realm of just trying the Jews. It is to try all the people of the world, whether they be Gentiles, Jews or the Church. I could see all 3 ages coming to a photofinish at the end of the Tribulation.

> > This number refers to the "many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders," of verse 11. This in no way refers to the Bride.

To the writer and to me, the elders are the representatives of the Bride. John is a member of the Bride. He is an elder. When he is caught up to Heaven, the rest of the Bride group are caught up with him. Rev. 5:8,9 refers to these "saints. And they (the saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION." I think all the elders are Hebrews, but this group is out of every nation on Earth.

There are "many angels round about the throne" in Heaven, but their number is probably not given. The huge number given probably refers back to "the elders," of which there are only 24 Hebrews, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. Therefore, I think the huge number is of the Bride which the elders represent. It is like us having Representatives in Congress. The elders present our wishes, "the prayers of saints" to the Lord, just as the Representatives present the wishes of their constituents to Congress. The constituents have authorized their elected Representatives to do this in their behalf.

> > Rev 9.16. These horsemen are not the "Kings of the East" as most presume. These horsemen are the locusts of verse 7 in the same chapter.

I agree. I think these are demons, the "angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation" of Jude 6. If that is true, and these are the "bene ha Elohim" ("sons of God" of Gen. 6:2, there were one heck of a lot of hybrid creatures on Earth before Noah's flood.

No wonder Gen. 6:1-74 says, "it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God (bene ha Elohim, as in Job 1:6; 2:1) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

If it hadn't been for Noah being "perfect in his generations" (Gen. 6:9), being a just man and walking with God, we wouldn't be here. Satan surely thought he was winning the angelic conflict at that point, but right when he thinks he is winning, that is when he is being defeated. Agape

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Another P&C 599 question.
Concerning Jesus' age of 33.5, do you know exactly how many days there were between His birthday and His Ascension. If you do, it would be interesting to see how that would correlate with this year. Agape

My reply

I think Jesus was born on Tishri 1 and died on Nisan 13. According to "The Jewish Calendar, Re-constructed with Equivalent English Dates for every day in the Public Life of Jesus Christ," there are 30 days in Tishri, 29 in Cheshvan, 30 in Kislev, 29 in Teveth, 30 in Shevat, 29 in Adar, and 13 in Nisan, for a total of 190 days, by Jewish inclusive reckoning.

According to Hillel's rules, as set forth by George Zinberg, in "Jewish Calendar Mystery Dispelled," there are only 3 months that can vary, Cheshvan, Kislev, and Adar.

Since there are 29 days listed in Cheshvan and 30 in Kislev, it must have been a Jewish Normal Year of 354 days. In a Deficient Year, those 2 figures would be 29 and 29. In a Full Year, those figures would be 30 and 30. Also, there is the regular 30-29-30-29-30-29 that occurs in the Normal Year and not in the Deficient or Full year. Agape

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Thank you for your recent reply to my last question. Another I am afraid. I am having discussions with someone at the moment about the true birth date of Yeshua. He says the feast of Tabernacles, I say Rosh Hashana. Please can you help with your views and scripture to support them. I would be so grateful. Thank you sister (from) UK...

My reply

I agree with you on Rosh Hashanah, the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, the Jewish NYD.

In De. 11:14, the Lord promised, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain."

Hos. 6:3 says, " the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain begins Tishri 1, the latter rain Nisan 1. Tishri 1 is the 1st day of the Civil Year. Nisan 1 is the 1st day of the Sacred and Regnal Year.

Eze. 29:17,21 agrees. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month...In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

A man that comes to my house says that Jesus tabernacled among us, therefore, he was born on Tabernacles. I can't see that. Tabernacle means dwelling, as Jn. 1:14 is translated. It says, "And the Word was made flesh, and DWELT among us." That would be as true of Tishri 1 as Tishri 15.... Agape

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From: Mark Copfer, Re: Lukewarm Christians
...I have prayed about it, and what I have been shown, is that there will be many lukewarm Christians left behind.

Verst 10 and 11 below prove that it is not referring to the Jews. The reason being, is the Marriage has NOT occured yet. If Jesus was talking to the Jews during the tribulation, then how can verse 10 be talking about going to the marriage ? The marriage takes place within 3 days of being raptured. So the below verses prove once again, that it is not in reference to the Jews.

Verse 11 also is pretaining to lukewarm Christians. Jews would not be saying " Lord Lord, open to us, so that they could go to the wedding right ? The Jews do did not believe in Jesus, so therefore would not be asking to go to the Wedding.

Once again, Matthew 25:10, when read, clearly states that The Church, Christians, are going to the wedding , and lukewarm Christians are left behind. And again, it is Impossible to be referring to the Jews, as no Jews are Raptures, only Messianic Jews and Christians who are watching and ready. Christ , whom is the Bridegroom, would not be coming for a bride that was not ready right ? And the below scriptures is not talking about the Second Coming, because the Wedding has NOT occured yet.

The Wedding of the Messiah in Heaven, and the Coronation of the King happens all within a 3 day period immedietly after the Rapture... So with all this said, and what the Holy Spirit has shown me, it is final in my mind, and it is my "opinion", that is not "ALL" Christians will be raptured. Only the ones who are ready, and watching. As the others will be sleeping, meaning not having a care at all about the rapture, or when it occurs. Again, this is my final email with regards to this topic :) Time indeed is running out, even so , Lord Come Quickly!!!

[Mat 25:1-13] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And by the way, verse 13 is also referring to the Rapture, and not the second coming. The trib saints will know exactly when Christ returns at the second coming, as all eyes will see him decending on his white horse, with all of his raptured saints and resurrected dead saints.

My reply

I agree with you "that there will be many lukewarm Christians left behind" at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > The marriage takes place within 3 days of being raptured.

What proof do you have of that? I think the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That is neither within 3 days of the Pre-Trib nor of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. In Rev. 14:4,5, the 144,000 "ARE VIRGINS." They are also "the firstfruits," and In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." I think they are added to the Bride group just before the Marriage of the Lamb.

> > The Wedding of the Messiah in Heaven, and the Coronation of the King happens all within a 3 day period immedietly after the Rapture

I expect the Coronation of Christ on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath and therefore of the Judgment Seat of Christ. It comes after the 6th seal is broken on the last day of this age, not 3 days after the Pre-Trib Rapture, which comes before the 1st seal is broken. After the 7th trumpet sounds, we read in Rev. 11:15,18, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Agape

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From: Mark Copfer, Re: Lukewarm Christians
There is no scriptural proof of a pre-wrath rapture at all

My reply

To me, there is. The foolish virgins are left behind when the Bridegroom comes for his Bride (Mt. 25:1f). The lukewarm Laodiceans are also spued out of the Body of Christ and left behind (Rev. 3:16). Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

Those believers left behind and appointed their portion, 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation, with the UNBELIEVERS cannot be subjected to God's Wrath. Rom. 5:9 says, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." I Thess. 1:10 says, "Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Therefore, there must be a 2nd Rapture for the Tribulation saints before God's Wrath is poured out on Earth.

In Revelation, we find two times that groups are gathered before the throne of God in Heaven, in Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:14. Those are the 2 groups that are to be raptured. The 1st is caught up at the first trump of God (I Thess. 4:16), before the first seal is broken on the Title Deed of the Earth that is given Christ right after the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 5:5). The 2nd group is caught up at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. This is between the 6th and 7th seals.

Mk. 13:27 shows the 2nd gathering. Concerning the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, it says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell. The 2nd Rapture is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:28 says of that day, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." That is the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. Agape

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