Pro and Con 605

Posted 9-29-00
BBC reported: “Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat are expected to hold fresh peace talks in the next few days...

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Oyyyyy! Looking up.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak has made public for the first time his support for the establishment of twin Palestinian and Israeli capitals as part of an eventual peace agreement. Referring to the Arabic name for the city, Mr Barak said: "It will be Jerusalem and al-Quds, one next to the other, as two capitals."

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They are truly beautiful, aren't they? Imagine being able to see them, to fly thru them and not get burned or even require a ship!!

Fountains of fire on the Sun

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I have a question concerning your infered interpretation of 2nd Peter 3:6-7. You stated the following in a recent P&C.

"Whereby the world ('kosmos') that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (became 'tohu' and 'bohu,' ruin and desolation): But the heavens and the EARTH , which are NOW (since Adam's day), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

As I understand this passage, Peter states in verse 5 that "they are willing ignorant" of some flood event which I interpret to mean the global flood of Noah. Peter makes reference to two global judgments of God; one being of the one which was "overflowed with water" (AT NOAH'S TIME) and the other as "reserved unto fire" (AT THE END TIME JUDGMENT).

My question is this; How do you know that "the heavens and earth which are NOW" refers to: (SINCE ADAM'S DAY) and not (SINCE NOAH'S DAY)? In Christ

My reply

2nd Peter 3:6-7 says, "Whereby the world ('kosmos') that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But THE HEAVENS and the earth, which are NOW (since Adam's day), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Did the Earth perish in Noah's day? Did the Lord have to create "every living creature that moveth" as he did in Gen. 1:21? No. The dove brought Noah an "olive leaf" (Gen. 8:11). Did "THE HEAVENS" perish? No. They dropped a lot of water, but as the Earth dried, a percentage of it would evaporate and form clouds.

II Peter 3:10-12 says of the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, "But the DAY OF THE LORD will COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, and the ELEMENTS SHALL MELT with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the COMING of the DAY OF GOD, wherein the HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" I think this is the type of catastrophe that happened before Adam was put on Earth.

In the Millennium, the Lord will need to refresh the heavens and the Earth in ways in which he did not have to do in Noah's day. Isa. 66:22 says, "as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain." Agape

PS: Re: The Kosmos of the Ungodly

Strong's says that "kosmos" is an orderly arrangement, from komeo, to tend, i.e., to take care of; prop. to provide for. Thayer's says that "kosmos" is an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order. It includes the harmonious arrangement of Earth and its inhabitants.

The meaning is clear in I Cor. 7:31: "they that use this WORLD (kosmos), as not abusing it: for the FASHION (schema, scheme) OF THIS WORLD (kosmos, orderly arrangement) passeth away."

I think the Bible refers to both a kosmos BEFORE Adam and the Kosmos of the Ungodly that BEGAN with Adam and continues to our day.

(1) The kosmos BEFORE Adam
1 Peter 1:20: "(Christ) Who verily was foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION (katabole, founding, casting or laying down) OF THE WORLD (kosmos), but was manifest in these last times for you"

Jn. 17:5 says, "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world (kosmos) was."

Eph. 1:4: "According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

We can see the contrast of the old kosmos and this present kosmos in II Peter 3:3-7. It says, "there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the BEGINNING (arche, first, origin, commencement) OF THE CREATION (Gen. 1:1). For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the HEAVENS (i.e., from the beginning) were of old (ekpalai, from old time), and the EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER (from the beginning): Whereby the WORLD (kosmos) THAT THEN WAS (from the beginning), being overflowed with water, PERISHED (became 'tohu,' ruin, and 'bohu,' desolation,Gen. 1:2): But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW (since Adam's creation), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment (Judgment Seat of Christ) and perdition of ungodly men."

The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, translated into English by Brenton, starts with "EN arche" in Greek and with "IN the beginning" in English. Thus, II Peter 3:4's "from the beginning of the creation" refers to the beginning of creation in Gen. 1:1. It was that kosmos that perished before Adam was created.

(2) The Kosmos of the Ungodly, FROM Adam to our day
Mt. 24:21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the BEGINNING (arche, first, origin) OF THE WORLD (kosmos) TO THIS TIME, no, nor ever shall be. There was catastrophe before this kosmos began, but none since as great as the upcoming one.

Lu. 11:50: "That the blood of all the prophets (including Enoch, 7th from Adam, Jude 14), which was shed FROM the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos), may be required of this generation."

Mt. 25:34: "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos)." I think this kosmos began to operate when God rested after creating Adam and Eve. At that time the food chain was complete. It wasn't at the time God said, "Let there be light."

Rev. 13:8: "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain FROM the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos)." The Lord killed a lamb and made clothing for Adam and Eve from the skin. That shedding of blood was a type of Christ's perfect sacrifice.

Rev. 17:8: "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life FROM the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos), when they behold the beast (Satan) that was (in Judas), and is not (in man now), and yet is."

Mt. 13:35: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret FROM the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos)."

Heb. 4:3: "we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were FINISHED from the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos)." Creation was finished when Adam and Eve were put on Earth. That was the beginning of this kosmos.

Heb. 9:26: "For then must he often have suffered SINCE the FOUNDATION (katabole, founding) OF THE WORLD (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (lit., consummation of the ages) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." I think there are 3 ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews and the Age of the Church, which is the consummation of the ages. Ages seem to be 2000 years. The Millennium is half an age. Therefore, the 3 1/2 years of Christ's ministry is reflected in the scope of time from when Adam was cast out of the Garden to the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jn. 14:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD (kosmos) cometh, and hath nothing in me." Satan took dominion away from Adam in THIS kosmos.

Jn. 16:11: "Of judgment, because the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD (kosmos) is judged."

II Peter 2:5: "And spared not the OLD (archaios, ancient) WORLD (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the WORLD (kosmos) OF THE UNGODLY." This kosmos we live in seems to be the only one in which God's creatures on Earth have God consciousness. Only Adam and Eve's descendants could be the ungodly. Thus, this kosmos we live in must all be called THE KOSMOS OF THE UNGODLY. It sure fits conditions in the world today. It certainly fit conditions in the world before the Flood too.

In Gen. 6:5-9, "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have CREATED (bara) from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

Notice that God did not say that he would destroy the life in the sea in Noah's day. However, in Adam's day, this life had to be restored. Gen. 1:21 says, "God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind."

I Cor. 5:19: "God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD (kosmos) unto himself." This reconciliation applies both to the part of this kosmos that was before Noah's Flood and to the remainder of this kosmos.

Jn. 1:29 says, "John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the SIN of the world (kosmos)."

Jn. 4:42 says, "know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world (kosmos)."

I Cor. 6:2: "the saints shall judge the WORLD (kosmos)".

Jn. 17:15: "They are not of the world (kosmos, i.e., the Kosmos of the Ungodly), even as I am not of the kosmos."

Jn. 17:24: "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am (in Heaven); that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world (kosmos).

I Cor. 11:31,32 says, "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened (as the Laodiceans, Rev. 3:19) of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world (kosmos)."

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Re: Were Laodiceans/Unwise virgins truly Christian?
I am becomming an avid reader of your website, it is a good forum for Christian debate. I have a question regarding your assertion that there will be two raptures, one for worthy and the other for unworthy Christians.

As examples you use the 10 virgins parable and the spewing out of the Laodician church members as proof. How do we know the Laodicians were actually Christian ( at least the ones being spewed out). Ones denomination, as you'll agree, does not prove one is a Christian. In fact I believe many devoted church goers from every denomination will be left behind. Those are the ones, I believe, God is depicting in the aforementioned examples. Those are the ones who will be weeping and gnashing their teeth at finally realizing the errors of their ways. They had a knowledge of the Truth but never accepted it in an intimate and personal manner. Thery will be the ones who will pay for their mistake with their life dying a martyr's death in the tribulation period. The only thing that allows us to participate in the one rapture of the church is the penalty Jesus Christ paid, by his shedding of blood. The only pre-requisite is belief and acceptance, everything else (goodworks) are the fruits of the spirit which will allow us to humbly accept rewards (some more and some less). To think otherwise tends to make one appear to be boastful, in my opinion. Your Brother in Christ

My reply

I think both the lukewarm Laodiceans and the foolish virgins are true Christians and will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Rom. 10:13 says that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." The foolish virgins call the Bridegroom "Lord" (Mt. 25:11). They have lamps, i.e., are sealed with the Holy Spirit. They just don't have an extra supply of the oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (i.e., bodies). We are told to " be FILLED with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). The Laodiceans have to be "in Christ" to be spued (emesai, vomited) out of his mouth. That message is to "the CHURCH of the Laodiceans." Lu. 12:46 shows that those left behind are believers. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the UNBELIEVERS." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In the parable of the wedding feast, we see that the weeping and gnashing of teeth is caused by a man being cast out of Heaven's door because he does not have on a "wedding garment" (Mt. 22:11). The Bride wears white (Rev. 19:8). By the time the Tribulation saints get to Heaven, they will have washed their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white (Rev. 7:14). We can learn our lesson to repent now, or we can learn it the hard way in the Tribulation. In Rev. 3:19, Jesus tells the Laodiceans, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Notice that the Philadelphians are not told to repent. They already have. Agape

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Re: Rosh Hashannah
I've been following your site for about four months now. Nothing has caught my attention more than the recent PC 602 Sept 22 post. I became a Christian 3-1/2 years ago, about two years ago I found a deep interest in Bible Prophecy. I prayed to the Lord about the Rapture, and prayed and prayed. About a 1-1/2 years ago I was totally consumed with dated information that stuck in my mind each and every day. Like a song that you just keep singing over and over. I was puzzled and confused. I didn't know about the Oslo Accords until I searched for what September 13 meant. But that wasn't the only date September 29 and September 30 also came up again and again, and what did this vision of a trumpet have to do with the dates? For a 1-1/2 years the Holy Spirt has led me to these dates, each and every day. Over time with research I begun to understand the visions I have. I've shared these with a few close friends, but fear of date setting and being so young in my Christian walk has keep me quiet. When I read that that post this morning the Holy Spirit confirmed all that had been within me was what I was now reading. Lord Come Quickly

My reply

I hope it is this week, but if not, stay ready (i.e., keep all sins confessed and brought under the blood of Christ, I Jn. 1:9). It could also be next Ascension Day. Maranatha. Agape

Incoming email

I have a question for you or the person that wrote an incoming email that was posted in Pro & Con 602. The quote follows:

"The Holy Spirit also said that knowing the date will do you no good it you do not have a relationship with the Father thru Jesus Christ. He says He is coming back for a Bride that has made herself Holy - Without Sin."

My question is how can a person make himself Holy without sin in time for the rapture? What about those Christians that still struggle with sin but continue to ask for forgiveness and to repent, or least try to repent, and try to live Godly lives? God Bless You!

My reply

We need to realize that the thing the wise virgins (Mt. 25:1f) have that the foolish ones do not is the extra oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (i.e., bodies). Both have lamps, the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Both expect to go with Christ when he comes for his Bride. The foolish call him Lord, but do not have extra oil to last them during the time the Bridegroom (Christ) tarries (our days). Eph. 5:18 says, " be filled with the Spirit." If we fail to have our vessels full, it won't be because we weren't told.

If we are full of the Holy Spirit, we have fellowship with our Holy God. If we sin, the level of the Holy Spirit recedes somewhat and we are out of fellowship. Sin erects a barrier between us and God. I Thess. 5:19 says, "Quench not the Spirit." If we confess our sins since accepting Christ, the Holy Spirit wells up within us like a fountain of living water.

Then, we will be like David, who said that his cup runneth over. He was in happy fellowship at that time. At another time, he was unhappy and out of fellowship. He said it was like God's hand pressing down on him. We are told these things because they can also apply to us.

I John 1:4-9 says, "these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Christ is the righteous judge. He is the one to choose his Bride. He told us a parable of the wedding feast in Mt. 22. A "man which had not on a wedding garment" is cast into outside the doors darkness. There "shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are CHOSEN." Rev. 17:14 says that "they that are with him (Christ) are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful." To be chosen, we need to be wearing those spiritual white robes of righteousnesses. The Bride wears white.

Jesus warned the lukewarm Laodiceans to buy of Him "white raiment." I John 1:9 shows us how to get it. Notice that the Philadelphians are not told to repent. They already have. It is the Laodiceans that are told to repent, so they won't get spued out of Christ's mouth at the Rapture. Rev. 3:19 says to the lukewarm Laodiceans, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

The Tribulation is the trial that is to come upon all the world. If we want to be kept "FROM" this trial (Rev. 3:10), we should not only obey I John 1:9, but also Lu. 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

We must make ourselves ready, and confess any sin the moment we slip and commit it. Agape

Incoming email

Dear Marilyn and Ed, Just wanted to tell you that this May just after I started reading your site, I purchased a baby dove. He is pure white and I named him Shalom. He calls the beautiful familiar coo all the time and is such a joy.

He lives in the living room in a cage and I am enjoying him very much. Every time someone writes in about seeing a dove, I have meant to write to tell you about him.

I love the site - alway feel excited when there is a new Pro and Con. I have learned so much from you - you are a blessing in my life. May God richly bless you and Ed. In His love.

My reply

Thanks for those kind words. I have never heard of anyone having a dove for a pet. They seem very unafraid and friendly in the wild though. A gray one greeted me with repeated cooing the first time I walked out on the patio at this house. I walked back and forth trying to find out where it was and it didn't fly away. I finally spotted it on the edge of the roof overlooking the patio. It seemed to be welcoming me to the house. Agape

Incoming email

Knowing God is not the author of confusion, and he dosen't put stumbling blocks in peoples' way,why is it he seems so ambiguous and he leaves Satan to try and confound us?

I have formed my own ideas on these questions: God is working his will through and around Satan --who is the one who sinned.And, it is our own sin that makes him hard to see.But, is there scriptual evedence that shows this? I know how Satan can fool us into believing what is bad for us and at the same time making us beleive it's not from him.Satan is ultimately the deciever.

I long for the termination of this age of man ruling this world under the sway of Satan.

Afterthought...Maybe when the bride of christ makes itself completely ready they will be able to know the "Rapture" date for sure. This could be done when the last individual recognizes their little bit of sin left in themselves that has to be confessed before the word of God is clear enough to see the date of the "rapture". Remember he is not slow as some might think, He is just patient.

My reply

It seems that man was put on Earth to prove a point to Satan. Eph. 3:10 says, "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God." I Peter 1:12 says, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO."

Satan and his fallen angels were probably judged and sentenced to prison. Satan may have appealed the sentence, saying something like, "How can a loving God sentence his creatures to prison?" God may be proving that he is perfectly just in doing this, in that a less powerful creature that cannot see God can still obey him. Thus, Satan's interest in our failing our test. "For WE WRESTLE not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES (i.e., heavenly places)" (Eph. 6:12).

There is an angelic conflict that overflows to us. Col. 2:14,15 says, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, HE MADE A SHOW OF THEM OPENLY, TRIUMPHING OVER THEM in it." II Cor. 10:4 says, "For the weapons of OUR WARFARE are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds."

Mankind was to be tested. He was not to walk by sight. He was to walk by faith. He was given a book of instructions so he could pass his test. Things in that book foretold the future, so that as those things came true 100%, man would know that they were all going to come true 100%. The Bible could be trusted. However, for everything to come true, some things needed to be obscure enough so that it would require the indwelling Holy Spirit to understand them.

Isaiah 28:9-13 explains why everything was not set down in words that all could understand. It says, " Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

A friend told his children something like this, that it was as if God wrote everything down, then cut it apart and put it back together with the pages in different order. Actually, it is even more involved than that. There are sentences that refer to two things that are widely separated in time. For instance, Isa. 61:2 says, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God." Notice that Jesus stopped reading at the comma (Lu. 4:19) for that reason. That was the acceptable year of the LORD. The day of vengeance of our God is still future in our day. Jesus spoke in parables to the unbelievers for the same reason, so that hearing, they still would not understand. However, Jesus explained these things to believers.

The story of salvation is very clear, but to understand prophecy, we have to study hard, comparing scripture with scripture. Not every detail we need to know is in one place. I think this is one reason the accounts in the four gospels differ slightly, so we have to put them together to get the full picture. One fact that is crucial to full understanding may only be in one of the accounts.

Compare Mt. 14:22-36, Mk. 6:45-56 and Jn. 6:15-21. Only in John 6:21 do we get this important information that shows that another miracle took place. It says, "Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went." Even then, we need to also know that they were "in the midst of the sea" from Mk. 6:47, then were IMMEDIATELY at the other side. You don't find all that in one account.

< < I long for the termination of this age of man ruling this world under the sway of Satan.

I know, it isn't hard to see that the end of this age is near. Everything is dropping right into place, just as the scriptures predict. One of the lessons we needed to learn out of all this was that we don't want to live where evil is in the mix. We will obey God willingly. Who knows, maybe we will replace the third of the angels that failed their test in the government of God.

Re: afterthought: Maybe we will get a clear warning. Maybe we have already gotten enough warning. I don't know. What I do know is that we had better get ready and watch patiently as our perfect Lord works his perfect plan. Maranatha. Agape

Incoming email

Re: mother has just emailed me (she lives 5 minutes from the old city
very serious!!...I was down near damascus Gate--swat teams (israel) in the streets, after what happened this am--many wounded and killed at the temple mount--a beautiful young Israli medic was sitting in his car with his partner (near Gaza) and a palistinian police just came up spoke the name of allah and shot him in the face--this is piercing the heart of Israel (for when one son is lost, it is a terrible loss to all the community) outbreaks now in Bethleham, ramalah, we had a whold group come here from mnt of Olives, because they could not get in to their hotel because of the violence--I believe this will allow the UN to come into Jerusalem--a grieving Roshanna for Israel--who knows what tommorrow may bring!!--very, very tense!! love

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