Pro and Con 606

Posted 10-2-00

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I was just reading your reply to fifteen year old Joshua in P/C 604. I will pray that this boy comes to Jesus before it is too late as the Master seems to be dealing very directly with him for a good reason. Anyway, I noticed you mentioned that the Bible is our manual God left for us, and it brought something cute to my mind. I don't know if you have ever heard this before, but a born-again actor (Gary Bussy) mentioned on T.V. one night that Bible, B-I-B-L-E, stands for "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth". I thought your readers might enjoy that. Agape.

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this is my motherinlaws response to your response to the previous email...

To me Tishri 1 is the beginning of the first day of Creation, and man was made on Tishri 6, and Tishri 7 is the end of the week and God rested or did Sabbath. How does a beginning start before the beginning? Remember that some of the so-called Kabbala is occultic and is opposite to the true Word of God. Everything the rabbis said does not hold true. They did just like Christian ministers do today, some things are true and then some things are not. The Scripture says that God caused light to shine the First Day, and so it was and Adam was created on the Six Day. Just like I do not believe in the gap theory of Genesis 1:1 and 2. I KNOW satan fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him, but nothing has been proven to ME when? . it took place. But that does not bother me.

I don't know why the Second Coming of Christ should be on Nisan 1 when Joel 2:15-17 plainly tells us the bridegroom and bride come out of the hadar - wedding chamber - and the closet - chuppah- wedding canopy under which they were married, and everything in the passage points to Tishri 10, Day of Atonement and Yom Kippur.. The Last Three Feasts are the ones we are working with. You will get it one of these days. As was said, 'Whichever way, Be Ready, have your heart attitude right for all the daily walk of life from now till then. Learn as fast as you can. WALK in love, peace, joy, LONGSUFFERING, (not short-suffering, which is so easy to do) kindness (graciousness), goodness, faithfulness, gentleness (notice this one too), self-control (don't blow it) This all takes a lot of practice and trials come to test these attributes. Which way will we go? ? ? Blessings and Love

My reply

> > To me Tishri 1 is the beginning of the first day of Creation, and man was made on Tishri 6...How does a beginning start before the beginning?

This "kosmos," orderly arrangement of things, in Greek, could not start until the food chain was complete. Therefore, I think the 6 days that God spent refashioning the Earth to make it a fit habitat for Adam preceded Tishri 1, God's day of rest after it was finished. Gen. 2:1 says, "Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED, and all the host of them." At that point, the "kosmos" was able to operate as it does today.

> > I do not believe in the gap theory of Genesis 1:1 and 2.

I do. You know that "hayah" is used in Hebrew to show that there is a change. Therefore, in the KJV, when "was" appears in the text, it shows that there is a change. If there is no change, "was" appears in italics. The verb form for "to be" is not there. It has to be supplied by the reader.

Genesis starts out, "In the beginning God created (bara) the heaven and the earth. And the earth was ('hayah,' lit., became; showing that there was a change) without form (tohu, ruin), and void (bohu, desolation)."

> > I don't know why the Second Coming of Christ should be on Nisan 1 when Joel 2:15-17 plainly tells us the bridegroom and bride come out of the hadar - wedding chamber - and the closet - chuppah- wedding canopy under which they were married, and everything in the passage points to Tishri

Eze. 29:17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." Then v. 21 says, " In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (i.e., the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

This agrees with Hos. 6:3. It says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts Tishri 1, the latter rain Nisan 1.

Joel 2:15-18 says, "Blow the trumpet (the Feast of Trumpets) in Zion, sanctify a fast (the upcoming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly (Heb. 12:23): Gather the people (those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture are gathered from one end of Heaven to the other), sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts (the Tribulation saints are caught up from Earth in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Mk. 13:27): let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Mk. 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

We know the wrath of God is poured out on the Feast of Trumpets. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." Joel 2:1-3 and others show that this is the Feast of Trumpets. It is when the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

Eze. 18-20 shows us what happens that day. It "shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains (asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

This is the worldwide earthquake. Rev. 16:18,19 says, " there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH."

I believe the Second Advent is 7 Jewish months after the Marriage of the Lamb on Tishri 1, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Day of God's Wrath. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them (Gog's army), that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD. Since there must be 7 Jewish months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1, this shows that the year of the Second Advent is a Jewish Leap Year, which 5768 is.

PS: I grabbed the very literal Concordant Version of Genesis to read while Ed exercised at Cardiac Rehab. This is the way they translated Gen. 1:1,2: "Created by the Alueim (Elohim) were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth BECAME a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos." Agape

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Re: Partial Rapture Question
Your site is such an encouragement. I check it often. Thanks.

I have a question on the idea of a partial rapture though. Perhaps it's because we focus so much on the living Christians at the time of the Rapture.

From 1 Thes. 4:16,17 there seems to be a resurrection of the dead in Christ at the same time as the rapture of living Christians. Wouldn't this include "carnal" believers in Christ who died previously? And if "carnal" dead believers gain heaven, what about the carnal living believers? They must die because they're carnal, but we don't have to die because we're good enough?

I know this flies in the face of the way we think justice should be done. And be assured, I am not advocating we can all be "carnal" and get away with it. God is not mocked, and what we sow, we reap. But by the grace of God we are saved; none of us should be good enough to gain heaven anyway.

And 2 Thes. 2:6,7 seems to indicate that the restainer must be removed beforehand. If the Holy Spirit is the Restainer and indwells all believers (including "carnal" ones ) then wouldn't every Christian be taken in the rapture?

The Scriptures seem to indicate to me that the Resurrection/Rapture includes all believers in Christ at that time. Some will be saved as through fire (i.e. no good works to be rewarded).

I don't mind good debates if done in love and I'm open to other views if they are supported by Scripture. Someday, we won't have to debate. We'll know as we have been known! Thanks for your time. In Christ

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

> > rapture of living Christians. Wouldn't this include "carnal" believers in Christ who died previously?

Not necessarily. It seems to me that only the Bride will be in this group. In the parable of the wedding feast in Mt. 22, the man without a wedding garment is cast outside the door, which is probably Heaven's door of Rev. 3:8; 4:1. When we see the Bride group in Heaven in Rev. 5:9,10, they are the ones that are made "kings and priests." They shall reign over Earth. The Tribulation saints are to "serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15). They are not said to be kings. A crown is mentioned for the Philadelphian saints in Rev. 3:11. No such crown is mentioned for the Tribulation saints.

> > 2 Thes. 2:6,7 seems to indicate that the restainer must be removed beforehand. If the Holy Spirit is the Restainer and indwells all believers ( including "carnal" ones ) then wouldn't every Christian be taken in the rapture?

I don't think so. The Laodiceans have to be in Christ to be spued out of his mouth at the time of the Rapture. The foolish virgins have to be in Christ to have lamps. Yet, they are left behind. The man at the wedding feast that was put outside the door did not have on a white wedding garment. Neither do the Laodiceans (Rev. 3:18). I think those wearing white robes of righteousnesses will be the Bride taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > The Scriptures seem to indicate to me that the Resurrection/Rapture includes all believers in Christ at that time. Some will be saved as through fire (i.e. no good works to be rewarded).

Those saved as though from a fiery furnace are those caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That 2nd Rapture is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." The 1st Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell, only rain, the symbol of the Spirit of Christ. Agape

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RE: Were Laodiceans/Unwise virgins truly Christian?
my point is that even if someone knows about the Lord, it doesn't necessarily make him a Christian as you assert. St. Paul reminds us that the demons believe and tremble. Even in the book of Acts there is a story where two men are trying to cast out demons in the name of the Lord, I believe the demons responded and I paraphrase, "Jesus I know and Paul I know but who are you?" which prove that even though they knew of Jesus, they were not Christian! Revelations states that in the great white throne judgement God will tell people who thought they were saved to " depart ye who work iniquity, I never knew you." These examples to me imply that there is a distinction between True Believers who are blood bought and therfore merit an escape from the comming judgement of the world and those who may know about Jesus but have never made a real spiritual commitment. The latter I believe are the ones described by the word of God as "lukewarm" and "unwise" To believe otherwise would negate the 100% effectiveness of the cleansing aspect of the blood of Christ, which I believe cleanses a truely born-again Christian from past, present, and future sins. AGAPE

My reply

> > if someone knows about the Lord, it doesn't necessarily make him a Christian as you assert.

I don't say that. I think that a person has to exercise his will and make a definite decision to accept Christ as his own personal Saviour. The message to the Laodiceans is to "the CHURCH of the Laodiceans." They have to be IN CHRIST to be spued out of his mouth. Jesus said, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES" (Rev. 3:22).

> > Revelations states that in the great white throne judgement God will tell people who thought they were saved to " depart ye who work iniquity, I never knew you."

Read Rev. 20:11-15. It doesn't say that. Mt. 7:21-23 says something similar. However, it does not tie in with the Great White Throne Judgment. V. 21 says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter (i.e., by being caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture) into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Jesus mentions a "wise man" in v. 24 and a "foolish man" in v. 26. This ties in with the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 wise, 5 foolish. The only difference between the wise and foolish virgins is that the wise "were ready" (Mt. 25:10). They had enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies) with their lamps (the sealing of the Holy Spirit). The foolish only had their lamps, no extra oil.

> > the blood of Christ, which I believe cleanses a truely born-again Christian from past, present, and future sins.

Christ took sin out of the way as an issue in salvation. Now it is "What think ye of Christ? (Mt. 22:42). However, there are 2 Raptures. To be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture is "the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:14). To not win this prize means that one is, at the time of the 1st Rapture, a "castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

When we accept Christ, we are purged from our "OLD SINS." New sins have to be confessed to bring them under the blood of Christ. It is like Christ washing Peter's feet. "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me" (Jn. 13:8).

Peter learned that lesson. II Peter 1:4-11 says, "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling AND ELECTION sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance (the Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Paul was caught up to Heaven more than 14 years before he wrote II Corinthians 12:1-7. He was also confronted by Christ on the road to Damascus. He had faith in Christ. However, he was still running the race to avoid being a castaway. In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul said, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY."

If Paul could be a castaway, so can we. We are running a race to win the prize of being caught up with the Bride group. The wise virgins win, the foolish lose. The foolish will have to wait for the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Agape

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Re: Prepare for the coming of the Lord
Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22:7 "Behold. I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Indeed, our Lord Jesus is coming and He is coming quickly. As christian we believe we live everyday that the next day is the coming of the lord, how true is it?

If it is for me, I would live today as if he is coming for the next very second. Your eternity question:

My reply

> > Revelation 22:7 "Behold. I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

What does it mean to KEEP the words of the prophecy of this book? Rev. 1:3 also uses the same word. It says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and KEEP those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

KEEP is "tereo," to keep a watch, to guard from loss, fig., to fulfill a command, hold fast, keep, preserve, watch, observe.

We want to keep the Pre-Trib Rapture. Therefore, we should pay close attention to Jesus' evaluation of the church when "the time is at hand"--NOW.

We must stay ready and wait patiently. In Rev. 3;10, Jesus says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP (tereo) THEE FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

We want to KEEP the Rapture and BE KEPT FROM the Tribulation. Our patient perseverance in well doing will pay off. We will be kept from the trial that is to come upon the whole world during the Tribulation by being caught up to meet Christ in the clouds.

Gal. 6:8,9 says, "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in DUE SEASON we shall reap, IF we faint not." Let's not trip over that little word "IF." We must faint not. We must persevere. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Noah and a 7 day warning
I hope all is well with you and Ed. I appreciate your site very much. I have been reading your pro/cons and have noticed many people are expecting a 7 day warning for the rapture like Noah receive. When I read Gen. 7, 10-13, I don't see it. In verse 10: "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood came upon the earth" verse 13: " In the self same day entered Noah". Therefore did not Noah enter the ark with his family the same day, not 7 days prior with a warning? Your comments. Thanks

My reply

Gen. 7:4 shows that Noah knew 7 days ahead of time. It says, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." During those 7 days, I assume that he was loading the Ark with supplies for the coming year. All in the Ark needed food for that year. Agape

My reply to Jason's reply to an earlier email

Jason: The Feast of Trumpets is also known as the coronation of the Messiah, when he will start reigning as king, thus the beginning of the "Day of the Lord", which includes the tribulation.

Marilyn: I think Trumpets is Coronation Day and the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord, but it comes on the 2300th day of the Tribulation.

Jason: Good, we both think the coronation Day and the millennium start at the same time.

Jason: I don't have any ideas on the 2300 days. I suppose you believe the "wrath" starts after the 2300 days then? I believe the wrath starts with the 70th week. The reason? The 70 years were the 'wrath' of god, and the 70 weeks was a 7 times worse curse from Leviticus. Thus, the 70 weeks are a curse of the law, and thus, the 70th week is a curse of the law. And since Christians are not under the curse of the law, we are not in the 70th week. The whole tribulation week is the wrath, not just some special part near the end. Yes, the wrath gets worse and worse, it's like the birthpangs. For scriptures on the last week being the wrath, see my page at:
http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/wrathweek.htm
---
From your web site:
> > The entire 70 years was the Wrath of God, and the entire 70 weeks of years is the Wrath of God. Thus, the entire 70th week is the Wrath of God.

Jason, I wish you would read Dan. 9:24-27 again. The word "wrath" does not appear there or anywhere else in the book of Daniel. V. 24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The first time the word wrath appears in Revelation is 6:16,17, after the 6th seal is broken. It says that men say, "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" The Day of God's Wrath begins the millennial Day of the Lord, which I think begins on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation. It is between the breaking of the 6th (Rev. 6:12) and 7th (Rev. 8) seals that the Tribulation is shortened for the elect's sake (Mt. 24:22). The 6th seal is broken on the last day of this age. The 7th seal is broken on the first day of the Millennium.

Believers are not appointed to wrath. I Thess. 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Therefore, the wrath of God is not poured out on mankind until the Tribulation saints are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14).

> > Ah, we both agree that "that day" is the "Day of the Lord", and yes, I believe the millinnium starts with the day of the lord, but I believe it is starting with the pre trib rapture, before the 70th week.

Mal. 4:5 says, " I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." Elijah and Moses prophesy during the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. Therefore, the Day of the Lord has not yet begun at Mid-Trib. Agape

My reply to another email from Jason

> > this male child is compared to a nation being born in one day in Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Isa. 66:7 says, "BEFORE her pain came." Rev. 12:2 says that she "PAINED to be delivered." They are not at the same time. Jesus was born "before her pain came." Rev. 12 is Mid-Trib. Israel is in pain during the last half of the Tribulation.

> > This male child symbolizes both Christ and Christians.

It does not represent Christ. I think it represents Moses and Elijah, who are caught up Mid-Trib.

> > the "time of Jacob's trouble" is seven years

I think it is one day that is like no other day that preceded it since there was a nation. Dan. 12:1 says, "there shall be a time of TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." This is ONE DAY, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. God's Wrath is going to be poured out on the unbelievers left behind.

> > who are the "remnant of her seed". I think those are the tribulation saints

They are the Messianic Jews of the Tribulation.

> > And if the "remnant of her seed" are obviously believers, then her "male child" can easily be believers as well -- those who rule with Christ as the Bride, with the rod of iron.

I think Israel's "male child" at Mid-Trib represents Israelites, i.e., Moses and Elijah, not the largely Gentile Bride of Christ that was taken up to Heaven before the Tribulation started.

> > there are many "born" stories in the Bible readings for this day.

We can only go by what the Bible says, not by what portion Israel reads on certain days. Agape

Incoming email

Re: The Tabernacle
A few P&C's ago, someone asked about the signifigance of the Tabernacle. I mentioned to you that I had ordered Rod Parsley's take on that and that after I viewed it, I'd send it on. It should come in a few days...

The last 2 or 2 P&C's have been dynamite! I check every day for a new one. Life is good, but I'm looking up with much excitement. How I wish I could say something NOW that would wake up my two children and their families in Hawaii. I think I've said enough that when the Rapture occurs they'll recognize what I've been talking about. All any of us can do is to continue to pray for our loved ones.

Thanks so much for being a beacon in this dark world. I love how the Gospel is laid out on your site, and how much it gets my brain to working and studying on things I hadn't thought of before. Maybe you can help me with this one. How many days, or months, or years between Elijah's rapture and Noah and family in the Ark? Maranatha.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words and the tape....

> > How many days, or months, or years between Elijah's rapture and Noah and family in the Ark?

I don't know the exact time between the 2 events. The Flood was in 1656 AH (BC 2387). Elijah's Rapture was much later. Ussher has BC 896. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Time Zone difference?
I was wondering whether will we be affected by the time zone difference?

Is there any way of preparing myself better for the rapture?

My reply

I think biblical time is Jerusalem time. The rest of us probably would have to take into consideration the time zone we are in. Here in CA, USA, I am 10 hours behind Israel.

To prepare for the Rapture, we need to confess all sins committed since we accepted Christ, so God can cleanse us of all unrighteousness (I Jn. 1:9). Agape

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