Pro and Con 607

Posted 10-3-00

Someone nice sent me the book, Starlight and Time, Solving the Puzzle of Distant Starlight in a Young Universe, by D. Russell Humphreys, a Board member of the Creation Research Society. It is interesting, but I am still not convinced that 15 billion years equal the 6 days in Genesis 1.

Like Gerald L. Schroeder, in The Science of God, Humphreys leans heavily on Einstein's general theory of relativity, but he disagrees with Schroeder in some ways.

Humphreys is convinced that the large distances projected by scientists are generally correct within a factor or two, that gravity distorts time, and that this Universe was created by God in 6 Earth days. He is also sure that the 6 days of Genesis 1 are six 24-hour days and tries hard to build a theory that will reconcile all of this. He admits that he considers this "only the outlines of a theory," yet he ends up with the statement, "God used relativity to make a young universe." I disagree.

On page 16, Humphreys said, "Now hang onto your hats, because it's really impossible for anyone to actually imagine a fourth dimension, but the equations of GR seem to require that space have an extra dimension. (One more than length, breadth, and width--and I'm not referring to time as the extra dimension."

These things he assumes to be true as a basis to his theory: (1) The cosmos is bounded, (2) The Earth is near the center, (3) The cosmos has been expanded, and (4) The cosmos is young. If he is wrong on any of these points, his theory fails. "BIG-BANG THEORIES," he says, "ASSUME AN UNBOUNDED COSMOS," so there is no consensus of opinion on whether the cosmos is bounded or unbounded.

He adds two more ideas to that list: (5) The original matter God created was ordinary liquid water, and (6) God transformed the water into various elements by compaction. Following this, he said, "I have suggested, but not proven, here that God did this by the simple means of creating the original waters within a black hole, allowing the resulting rapid gravitational collapse to heat the waters to the point where nucleosynthesis would occur, and finally on the second day converting the black hole to a white hole by beginning the rapid expansion of space. The high temperatures, followed by the expansion, would produce the cosmic microwave background radiation."

The Bible is so much simpler than all these assumptions and mathematical equations. What Humphreys doesn't want to understand is that there is a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 2, that the heavens and the Earth were already there in v. 1, and that they became ruin and desolation. Gen. 1:2 in the literal Concordant Version has, "Yet the earth BECAME (hayah) a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (emphasis mine). From what I know about the verb "hayah," that seems to be a valid translation.

II Peter 3:3-7 (KJV) says, "there shall come in the last days scoffers... saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were OF OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos, orderly arrangement) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

There is a definite division here. The Earth of old is contrasted with the Earth which is now. I think it is plain that the division of the old "kosmos" on Earth from the present "kosmos" on Earth took place between Gen. 1:1 and 2.

Humphreys quotes the NASB in support of his theory that God made the Universe, including the Earth, out of water, just H2O. II Peter 3:5 says, "by the word of God the heavens existed LONG AGO and the earth was formed out of water and by water." However, the passage goes on to say, "through which the world (kosmos) at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." No matter how God formed the Earth, there still was a destruction of the "kosmos" of LONG AGO and the present "kosmos." If we follow Humphreys' theory through to a logical conclusion here, it seems as if he thinks the Earth was first formed by water and then destroyed by water.

To me, the KJV makes more sense: "the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos, orderly arrangement) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It agrees with Gen. 1:2: "And the earth WAS (hayah, became, indicating a change) without form (tohu, ruin), and void (bohu, desolation); and darkness WAS (verb supplied by the translator, indicating no change) upon the face (i.e., surface) of the deep (i.e., the water covering the land). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In Hebrew, when the verb form "to be" is used, it shows that there is a change. When it is left out, the reader has to supply the verb. This shows that there is no change involved. In Gen. 1:2 above, the 1st "WAS" indicates a change has taken place. The 2nd "WAS" indicates that there was no change. In the KJV, we can easily tell whether the verb form is there or not. If it is there in the original, the verb is not italicized. If the verb is not there, the verb is italicized. Therefore, at that point in time, the Earth had become changed, but the darkness was not changing.

Because Humphreys thinks the Universe has expanded, he thinks Isa. 40:22 refers to that. It says, "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle (i.e., the orbit) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that STRETCHETH out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." I think the reference is to the Tabernacle curtain. It's 10 widths represented the 10 original planets, including Rahab, which split apart and formed our Asteroid Belt. When Rahab was split apart, the space between Mars and Jupiter looked empty. The space separated the terrestrial planets from the rest of the planets.

In chapters 1 and 10, Ezekiel saw visions of "the heavens." I think he saw the 4 terrestrial planets flying in concentric orbits, wheels within wheels. Above their heads, farther out in space, was "the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, fr. Sanskrit sani, Saturn, and priya, dear): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus Christ) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is golden)...and it had brightness round about. (Saturn's rings) As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about." (Eze. 1:25-28).

Isa. 51:9 says, " Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ); awake, as in the ANCIENT DAYS, in the GENERATIONS OF OLD. Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab, and wounded the dragon?" I think this event eventually caused an asteroid to impact Earth. That impact ended the old "kosmos," the one of Gen. 1:1, and the Lord had to refresh the Earth to make it a fit habitat for Adam.

I think the Sun was already in the sky in Gen. 1:1, that it made plant and animal life possible, and that the dark atmosphere caused by the asteroid impact prevented its light from reaching Earth in v. 2. All God had to do then was thin the atmosphere for light to appear.

Here is what Humphreys thinks. On p. 32,33, he said, "Because of the great concentration of matter, this ball of water (i.e., the whole Universe) is deep within a black hole, whose event horizon is more than half a billion light-years away. The earth at this point is merely a formless, undefined region of water at the center of the deep, empty of inhabitant or feature. The deep is rotating slowly and there is no visible light at its surface....Because the enormous mass of the whole universe is contained in a ball of (relatively small size, the gravitational force on the deep is very strong, more than a million trillion "g"s. This force compresses the deep very rapidly toward the center, making it extremely hot and dense. The heat rips apart the water molecules, atoms, even the nuclei into elementary particles. And God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light. THERMONUCLEAR FUSION reactions begin, forming heavier nuclei from lighter ones and liberating huge amounts of energy. As a consequence, an intense light illuminates the interior, breaking through to the surface and ending the darkness there." To me, that sounds as if he would be placing Adam and Eve into a dangerously radioactive habitat.

He quotes "God separated the light from the darkness." Then he says, "This paragraph following is the most speculative of my reconstruction of events. As the compression continues, gravity becomes so strong that light can no longer reach the surface, re-darkening it. Psalm 104:2, 'Covering Thyself with light as with a cloak,' in context appears to refer to Day One. This suggests to me that at this point the SPIRIT OF GOD, 'moving [or 'hovering'] over the surface of the waters' (Genesis 1:2), BECOMES A LIGHT SOURCE."

I just don't think he is right on this speculation. I think the Sun was the light source. On p. 53, he does say that "no one today can start from observed data and build up a cosmology by rigorous scientific deduction. Instead, some ideological initial assumptions are necessary." I do agree with that, because God has not seen fit to tell us how he created the heavens and the Earth, only that he did it in the beginning.

Humphreys quoted Psa. 68:33: "To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of OLD." To me, that is talking about the OLD "kosmos" of Gen. 1:1, but not to him.

On page 57, he quoted Ex. 20:11 (parenthetic statement mine), "For in six days the LORD made (asah, refashioned) the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

He takes "made" (asah) as if it were "create" (bara). In Genesis 1, "bara" is used in v. 1: "In the beginning God created (bara) the heaven and the earth." It is not used again until v. 21: "And God created (bara) great whales, and every living creature that moveth." Therefore, what God did on the first 4 days was not original creation. He was refashioning the Earth to make it a fit habitat for Adam. The seeds of the previous "kosmos" were in the Earth. Therefore, in v. 11, God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass", etc. In v. 16, "God made (asah, refashioned) two great lights." He thinned the atmosphere to make the Sun and Moon visible. After all, the very 1st day had both evening and morning caused by the Earth rotating in the sunlight.

On page 65, Humphreys quotes II Cor. 12:2, when Paul was "caught up to the third Heaven." I count them (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, and (3) Saturn, but not him.

Here is his explanation. "Numbering outward from the earth, there is the first heavens, interstellar space, also known as the expanse, created on day two. The earth's atmosphere, by my view, is simply the face of the expanse. Above the first heavens, out beyond the most distant galaxy, is a wall of ordinary water (the surfaces of which are now probably ice), of unknown thickness. Beyond the outside surface of the waters is a space which I here call the second heavens, also called the heavens of heavens, the heavens of day one. We know very little about the second heavens, except that it is a created thing and is of finite extent. This space could be closed and unbounded, but the matter within it is bounded. Somewhere beyond the second heavens is the third heavens, about which we know little."

He puts the 3rd heaven way out in nowhere. Yet Paul was able to go there and return to Earth (II Cor. 12:1-7). Also, in Jn. 14:2-4, Jesus said, " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare A PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go YE KNOW, and the way ye know." They knew of the planets out to Saturn in those days, and yet where Heaven is they "KNOW." Saturn fits. Humphreys' far off nowhere does not. Josephus, a Pharisee priest of the 1st century AD, indicated that the candlestick represented Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (Ant. III. VI. 7). That agrees with the Bible.

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From the Jerusalem Post
JERUSALEM 10-3-00 - The Palestinians are calling for international intervention to stop the violence in the West Bank and Gaza. They are demanding that the UN Security Council send international forces to the Temple Mount to keep Israeli soldiers away from the site. They also echoed the Arab League's demand for an international commission of inquiry into the violence.

Palestinian security officials warned yesterday that the situation is getting out of control, and measures are needed on the ground to calm it.

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Re: Joshua, P & C 604
What an incredible blessing your site has been to me since I found it several weeks ago (through a link from Stan and Holly Deyo's website.) Thank you, most sincerely.

I have to share with you that I literally wept, and prayed, and an hour later am weeping again as I write this, over the young man - Joshua - from your P & C 604. My heart is so heavily burdened for him right now. And I don't understand why it hurts so much. I pray that he writes back to you as did Christopher from Sweden. May God continue to bless you. Your sister (in Christ)

My reply

Thanks for those kind words.

I hope Joshua writes back too. About the only thing I can do otherwise is keep praying for him. Blessings and agape

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From: Jason. Re. comments on your web page

> > Jason, I wish you would read Dan. 9:24-27 again. The word "wrath" does not appear there or anywhere else in the book of Daniel.

????????????? I don't understand...

That's like saying the word "rapture" does not appear in the bible... This argument is not holding water here...

If you are holding to "wrath" as a special word, then it must have peculiar meanings in the Greek?. But, as we see from orge and thumos, it does not.

Of course you will never find any greek words in the hebrew scriptures, so the concepts that are peculiar to your greek words from Revelation are the concepts we will look for in Daniel, Ezra, and Neh, with regard to the 70 years, and the 70 weeks.

3709 orge and 2372 thumos

3709 orge {or-gay') from 3713; TDNT - 5:382,716; n f
AV - wrath 31, anger 3, vengeance 1, indignation 1; 36
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

2372 thumos {thoo-mos'} from 2380; TDNT - 3:167,339; n m
AV - wrath 15, fierceness 2, indignation 1; 18
1) passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again
2) glow, ardour, the wine of passion, inflaming wine (which either drives the drinker mad or kills him with its strength)

Anger, indignation, punishment, are perfectly acceptable English substitutes.

You will NEVER find orge or thumos, Greek words, in the Hebrew Scriptures, of course they do not exist in Daniel. It doesn't mean the concepts are not there.

And these concepts, "anger, indignation, punishment, wrath", are, indeed, spoken of with regard to the 70 years of captivity, not only in Daniel, but in Ezra, and Neh too. Read all of Daniel Chapter nine, not just verses 24-27.

And the 70 weeks of years... that comes from the Law in Leviticus, the previous "anger, indignation, punishment, wrath" of the 70 years were just multiplied by a factor of seven, because, as we see in the chapter of Daniel 9, and the books of Ezra and Neh, the people did not repent.

A curse that is seven times worse is all of a sudden no longer considered wrath?

How can you possibly hold to such a belief?

The 70th week is the Wrath of God, just as the previous 69 weeks were, just as the 70 years were.... The wall was rebuilt in "even in troublous times."... that's because of God's wrath!

My reply

The book of Daniel does not have the word "wrath" in English or "ebrah" in Hebrew. Revelation tells us what Daniel doesn't. Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH (orge) IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH (orge) IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

God's wrath comes in ONE DAY, the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Since "God hath not appointed us to wrath (orge), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thess. 5:9), all believers must be removed from the face of the Earth BEFORE God's Wrath can be poured out on unbelievers. Therefore, God's Wrath does not begin at the start of the Tribulation, but on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14). The Tribulation saints are in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. Then the trumpet judgments hit in Rev. 8f.

Let's look at some scriptures that speak of the Day of God's Wrath and see what happens that day. Isa. 9:19: "Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the LAND DARKENED, and the PEOPLE shall be as the fuel of the FIRE." That comes at the end of the shortened Tribulation, not at its beginning. Isa. 13:9: "the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall DESTROY THE SINNERS THEREOF OUT OF IT." He doesn't do that at the beginning of the Tribulation. Isa. 13:13: " I will shake the heavens, and the EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the WRATH of the LORD of hosts, and in THE DAY OF HIS FIERCE ANGER." The Earth will remove out of her place when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact. That does not happen at the beginning of the Tribulation. Jer. 10:10: "AT HIS WRATH THE EARTH SHALL TREMBLE (the worldwide earthquake of Eze. 38:20; Rev. 16:18), and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation." Jer. 50:13: "Because of the WRATH of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues." Babylon is destroyed in one hour by an asteroid (Rev. 18:10,21).

Eze. 7:19: "They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE WRATH OF THE LORD." Zeph. 1:14-18: "The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near (the next day), and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the DAY OF THE LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of DARKNESS and gloominess, a day of clouds and THICK DARKNESS, A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH." Joel 1:15: "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY SHALL IT COME." These things do not happen as the Tribulation begins. They happen on the 2300th day, when the Millennial Day of the Lord starts on the Feast of Trumpets.

> > the 70 weeks of years... that comes from the Law in Leviticus, the previous "anger, indignation, punishment, wrath" of the 70 years were just multiplied by a factor of seven...> > A curse that is seven times worse is all of a sudden no longer considered wrath? > >How can you possibly hold to such a belief?

I just simply let Scripture tell me when the Day of God's Wrath is. Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will CHASTISE you seven times for your sins." Thus the 7 years are chastisement.

Eze. 38:18-20 shows us when his fury comes up in his face. It says, "it shall come to pass at the SAME TIME WHEN GOG SHALL COME AGAINST THE LAND OF ISRAEL, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in THAT DAY there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5), and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth (worldwide earthquake), shall shake at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains (asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." This takes place on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, not at the beginning of the Tribulation.

> > The 70th week is the Wrath of God, just as the previous 69 weeks were, just as the 70 years were.... The wall was rebuilt in "even in troublous times."... that's because of God's wrath!

The Lord is longsuffering toward us. He chastises. However, his awful final outpouring of wrath is reserved for the day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. They are the immediate effects. The seven "vials of the WRATH OF GOD" (Rev. 16:1) fill up the measure of his wrath. Their effects are spread over a bit more time. As "the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: AND GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of THE FIERCENESS OF HIS WRATH" (Rev. 16:17-19).

The Tribulation before the Day of God's Wrath is chastisement. Rev. 3:19 warns the lukewarm Laodiceans, "As many as I love, I rebuke and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent." The Tribulation is the TRIAL THAT SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (pierasmou, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try (pierasai) them that dwell upon the earth." Agape

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Re: thank you for your site
Dear Marilyn, I have been following your site for some time. Now, after reading the dream sent in from the individual who was told by the Holy Spirit to contact you, I am compelled to write and say how much you site has been of value to me.

It is a lonely path, believing in "end times" prophecy, as it is not a popular sermon topic in mainstream churches. I attend one of those in the Washington DC area and have determined that I must stay to continue to be a witness when I can be.

Time is so short . . . the other day at work I commented to a girl that THE EXORCIST has been re-released; she asked me if I believe in demonic possession; I said yes. She then looked at me with such an odd expression, an expression of disbelief. I told her to check out C.S. Lewis' THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS. Certainly demonic possession might be hard for her to digest, but demonic influence, as Uncle Screwtape counsels his nephew, is very much a daily activity.

Joshua, those who are left behind and come to a faith in Christ might do so because of your testimony left for them to read. Yes, it will be the greatest suffering the world has ever known, but those who come to Christ after the rapture will share in the same glory as those who did beforehand. I see you as an example of the parable of the workmen who get the same pay for working part of the day as those who have worked the whole day. I encourage you to chose Christ now. Let Him decide where best to use you. All the best

My reply

Thanks for your kind comments.

The same pay for working at the end of the day probably refers to Salvation. We can also win the prize of being accounted worthy of being part of the Bride group. They are the ones caught up to Heaven first. As far as I know, the only ones to be added to the Bride group during the Tribulation are the 144,000 Israelites.

The ones that are accounted worthy are the ones that escape in the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride of Christ. Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Agape

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Re: Words of Encouragement
Dear Marilyn, God's blessings to you and yours. For the past two years I have been reading your website, and I have never written to express my gratitude to God for your ministry. You have been such a gift to the Body of Christ. Although you have stated that you are not a "prophet," unquestionably there is a prophetic dimension to your ministry. Ephesians 4:11-13 remind us:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I thank God for your obedience in diligently studying the Word of God and then publishing the insight you have received from God. I really can't express in words how much the Word of God shared in "The Prophecy Corner" has meant to me. The hope of Christ's return has never burned more deeply in my soul. Throughout my life I have experienced what a minister called "a sense of impending good." The ultimate expression of this anticipation is the blessed hope of Christ's iminent return. What "joy unspeakable and full of glory" it will be when we are present at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The words of our Lord encourage us:

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Thank you for your continual exhortation to watch and wait. Maranatha!

My reply

Gee thanks. I'm glad you find what I write edifying. I'll have to get a tight cap to keep from getting the big head. :-) Agape

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