Pro and Con 609

Posted 10-6-00

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Re: How do you do it!
Blessings to you my dear friend! You are SO amazing! How do you manage to read such deep books as the ones people have sent you recently and keep up with posting the P&C's every other day?!! Do you ever sleep, or cook, or clean house? Do you ever go out, just for a drive or to see a pretty view?

God must love you very much, to give you such wisdom and insight to His word! You may not be a Prophet, or stand in the office of Prophet in any church, but you DO have the manifestation gift of prophecy, which is true, Godly discernment (Rom.12:6). You see things very much in black and white and can spot a lie or an untrue statement quickly. That is a gift that all should desire. Truth is important to you and you always compare any statement to the plumb-line of our truth - God's word. May this scripture be yours always: 3John2 "Beloved, I pray that you may *prosper* in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers."

prosper: Greek: euodoo, meaning literally 'to help on the road' or 'succeed in reaching'. It implies that divine prosperity is not a momentary, passing phenomenon, but rather it is an on-going, progressing state of success and well-being, intended for every area of our lives. Hidden in Him

My reply

Thanks for all your kind words.

> > How do you manage to read such deep books as the ones people have sent you recently and keep up with posting the P&C's every other day?!! Do you ever sleep, or cook, or clean house? Do you ever go out, just for a drive or to see a pretty view?

I love to read. I feel like I have studied just about my whole life. When we lived in Yorba Linda, I frequented 5 libraries in 4 cities. Don't do that now, Riverside libraries have no money for new books. I read the last book (report below) between lunch and bed. It is a rare night that I turn in before midnight. I only do what chores just have to be done, washing among them, don't cook a lot. With the price of gasoline, we don't drive more than necessary. In this arid area, there are no pretty views I want drive to see. We did that when we were young and had a truck and camper. Yosemite was our favorite. Its different now that I'm nearing 72 and Ed is 76. We are not campers any more. We now walk in the grocery stores nearby instead of driving to the mall and gas up and shop on the trip back from Cardiac Rehab, where Ed exercises and I read. I don't watch much TV, but will watch ice skating, the Olympics and a ball game here and there. Saw the Yankees beat the Oakland As today. Agape

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Re: Question of Zechariah 14
...I found this scripture which seems to indicate that he doesn't come physically until the restoration of all things. Acts 3:20-21 says, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you Whom the HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

That seems to be pointing to the time that he restores the earth and it's atmosphere, so that would indicate that verse 4, that talks about his feet touching down on the Mt. of Olives has to occur on the day of the second advent. So, I guess the question now is, why would Israel have to flee to the mountains (v. 5) after Jesus comes back physically? Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

I don't know exactly how it happened, but somehow all my Inbox ended up in the Deleted Items folder. I took everything out and put it back in the Inbox, but it is mixed with the previous contents of the Deleted Items. Now I'm not sure what I have answered and what I haven't.

> > why would Israel have to flee to the mountains (v. 5) after Jesus comes back physically?

Some of the people left on Earth are the "goats." They should be afraid. Mt. 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Agape

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From the 5doves site: Phil D. Massey (2 Oct)
10-2-00 By URI DAN - Jerusalem Post

The 1973 Yom Kippur War caught the Israelis unaware. But Israeli military and security officials were well prepared for what probably will come to be known as the 2000 Rosh Hashanah terror.

Prime Minister Ehud Barak and his security services have known for some weeks that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was planning a major crisis, believing it would advance his tough negotiations with Barak....

When Barak was asked by Israeli state radio whether the visit last Thursday by opposition leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount had sparked the riots, Barak answered clearly, "No. It has nothing to do with it."

His spokesman Gadi Baltyansky, when asked the same question by a BBC reporter, answered, "Every Jew has the right to visit the holiest place for the Jews."

The issue of who will control the Temple Mount, which Arafat says should be under full Palestinian sovereignty, has been one of the most burning issues in peace talks since the Camp David summit last July.

Barak has been ready for a compromise, Arafat not.

So Arafat went to his usual method, which he used under all the Israeli prime ministers since he came back to the Gaza Strip in 1994 - violence.
Middle East peace talks collapse

Talks aimed at ending the seven-day bloodshed that has spread throughout the West Bank and Gaza have ended in deadlock.

Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Barak has rejected further talks in Egypt with Palestinian President Yasser Arafat accusing him of failing to sign an agreement reached in Paris on Wednesday.

Mr Barak has returned to Israel. Mr Arafat is going to Egypt as is US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright who acted as mediator in the marathon session. She will brief Egypt's president Hosni Mubarak.

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From: Jim Bramlett. Re: 7 years to the day!!!
I find this timing absolutely astonishing.

The Oslo Accord between Israel and the PLO was signed on the White House lawn on September 13, 1993. However, I understand it was not officially ratified until three days later in Israel on TISHRI 1, 5754 on the Jewish calendar. Many believe the Oslo Accord had profound prophetic significance, obviously not triggering the final seven years, but some believe the beginning of the "seven good years," before the bad years. Many consider the Oslo agreement the "covenant with death" of Isaiah 28:18.

Although the trouble began a few days earlier, EXACTLY seven years after Oslo was ratified, to the very day, Saturday, September 30, 2000 (TISHRI 1, 5761) CNN headlines read: "The battle for Jerusalem has begun."

Also, thanks to a fax from friend and fellow watchman Dr. Armando Pardillo in South Florida, I have an article from the Miami Herald on Sunday, October 1, 2000 (Tishri 2) which said, "Proclaiming the start of a RELIGIOUS WAR, thousands of Palestinians clashed with Israeli forces in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza on SATURDAY..." (emphasis supplied. Saturday was TISHRI 1.)

To the very day -- a religious war and the battle of Jerusalem proclaimed -- exactly seven years from Oslo!

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Thanks for the tape and book, Footprints and the Stones of Time, by Dr. Carl Baugh (founder of Creation Evidences Museum, Glen Rose, TX) and Dr. Clifford Wilson (founding president of Pacific College of Graduate Studies in AU). I haven't heard the tape on the Tabernacle yet, but read the book today.

Shown are pictures of human-like 5-toed footprints and 3-toed dinosaur footprints, mainly at the Paluxy River at Glen Rose, TX. Mentioned are "human" footprints found in Australia, Moab (Utah), Glen Rose (Texas), and in Turkey. The authors are certain that this is proof that man existed with dinosaurs and all but Noah and his family were wiped out by the Flood catastrophe. They have live sharks getting buried by sand and silt being laid down fast in the sea and limestone being laid down in several layers interspersed with clay marl at Paluxy River.

Dr. Baugh said, "In fact, all life forms had to be created simultaneously. They are so interdependent and anterially related." I think he goes a bit too far. True, the food chain had to be complete, but that doesn't mean that every single creature was created simultaneously. To me, dinosaurs and Adamic man do not have to be created simultaneously any more than sabre-toothed tigers had to be created at the same time as Bengal tigers and Siamese cats.

Under a picture of a section of the Grand Canyon, they said, "A visit to such places as the Grand Canyon in Arizona shows the way the various strata are formed. It is almost as though they have been put there with a sharp knife. These various strata did not slowly merge together over vast periods of time. They were put down suddenly, resulting from one great catastrophe."

I agree that the layers were put down suddenly by a catastrophe. However, it seems to me that it would take a much more drastic one than the Flood of Noah's day to accomplish it. I can't see how the globe could have rocked enough to do it in Noah's day.

If the Moon material was blasted out of the Pacific Basin by an asteroid, that could do it. The globe would rock back and forth until it regained its equilibrium, depositing layer after layer of debris. It could lay down limestone when it rocked one way and clay when it rocked the other way, building up these layers.

These authors assume that these human-like footprints are of Adamic man, but they don't have to be. That is really stretching it to reconstruct a whole creature from footprints. Isa. 45:18 says, "thus saith the LORD that created (bara) the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made (asah, refashioned) it; he hath established it, he created (bara) it NOT in vain (tohu, waste, without form), he formed it to be inhabited." The Earth was inhabited by the animal kingdom before Adamic man was put on Earth. One of those creatures may have had feet like ours. Whatever was here was wiped out by the catastrophe between Gen. 1:1 and 2.

Gen. 1:6 says, "God said, Let there be a firmament (raqiya/raqia, an expanse, i.e., of space) in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Raqiya is from the root raqa, to pound, expand (by hammering), by implication to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):--beat, make broad, spread abroad, stamp, stretch.

Dr. Baugh said of raqia, "literally that word in the Hebrew means to 'compress,' to 'pound together,' and to 'stretch out' this arch or firmament, with one of its compositions being thin metal sheets. "When that interpretation was made known to us, it really threw us until further research made certain aspects much clearer. If the elements of water are put under very strong electromagnetic force, a canopy actually is held in suspension. There is what we call the Meisner Effect (levitation). Hydrogen atoms will do the same with extreme pressure, but you have to get it to two or three magabars. We are talking about extreme pressure, when it becomes super-conductive--as I say, due to what is called the Meisner Effect.

"What is more, we can keep it in suspension, because tests have been run in modules showing that if you have just a vapor canopy, or a water canopy, it collapses. In order to have the context that is described in the Bible, and as well as the ancient world (especially the fossil record), IT HAS TO BE A LITERAL STRETCHED-OUT-CANOPY WITH METAL-LIKE COMPONENTS" (emphasis mine).

First, he takes the meaning of the root for the word derived from that root. He seems to be searching for things that support his theory instead of letting the Bible say what it will. Raqiya basically means expanse (i.e., the expanse of space, sky, the heavens). Raqiya is translated "firmament" all 17 times in the KJV. What Dr. Baugh calls "a literal stretched-out--canopy with metal-like components," God calls heavens. The literal Concordant Version of Gen. 1:7,8 says, "And separating is He between the water which is under THE ATMOSPHERE (raqiya) and the water which is above the atmosphere. And calling is the Alueim (Elohim) the atmosphere (raqiya) 'HEAVENS.'" V. 20 says, "and the flyer shall fly over the earth on THE FACE OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE HEAVENS." Birds fly in the lower expanse of space. The Sun and Moon are also in this expanse of space. V. 14 says, "Become shall luminaries IN THE ATMOSPHERE (expanse of space) of the heavens."

"Dr. Baugh: Limestone is actually concrete calcium carbonate....limestone cures or lithifies by a chemical reaction which causes a heating, and then a diminishing--and its cured. You can cure it in a matter of hours! You can go as far as thirty-six hours in the process, but it has to be very rapid, and additionally we have found with what are called polystrate fossils (these are fossils that extend down into one layer and up into the next layer) that there was a cycle to the whole thing."

"Dr. Wilson: If you have a stratum of limestone and then mud and clay and more limestone strata--and find that you have one of these fossils that extends up through the lot, clearly it could not possible just grow there. It has to be encased in the various strata, and therefore the catastrophe must be a sudden, simultaneous thing.

"Dr. Baugh: We found very tender plants like lepidodendron, extending from one limestone stratum through marl into the next limestone level."

To me, many layers of limestone alternating with clay marl being built up around a tree, for instance, fit the rocking after an asteroid impact far better than sedimentation in the Flood of Noah's day. The inclusion of tender plants in several layers fit the rocking too. They do not seem to fit flood-laid silt so well.

"Dr. Baugh:...Precursors are previous forms leading up to the present. However, there are no forms leading up to man: he simply and suddenly appeared on the scene. There are no transitional forms, no missing links. Man appears suddenly IN SUPERIOR FORM--and superior is correct. We have excavated many tracks that demonstrate all this. In the last eight and a half years we have found fifty-seven human footprints, one hundred and ninety-seven dinosaur footprints, a major dinosaur, and we have a fossilized human finger that was brought to us from these limestone ledges."

I don't believe in evolution. God created everything. I think that the old "kosmos" was destroyed so completely that the sky was dark and all the land was covered with water afterward. Fossils from that previous era show us some of what was on Earth in those ancient days. Many animal life forms existed that are not on Earth today. One of them may have had feet and fingers similar to ours. They do not exist on Earth today, either. Adam was a brand new creation, different from anything that went before. To assume that a fossil footprint and finger show that Adamic man and dinosaurs lived at the same time is to run too far with the information at hand. These men jump to that conclusion because that is what they are trying to prove.

"Dr. Wilson:...How do things fossilize?
"Dr. Baugh: It must be fossilized rapidly. Fossils are not being formed today....unless they are buried immediately you will not get fossilization. They must be encased very rapidly and essentially buried as they are dying in material (not sand) that will encase them, as in a vault."

If fossils are not being formed today, and we have floods, I don't see how the Flood of Noah's day could have done it, either. A large asteroid impact could cause fossilization when the Earth rocked.

Dr. Wilson told of finding dinosaur footprints in the area of Dinosaur State Park. "These dinosaur footprints," he said, "were on a higher level than human footprints we had found, and therefore the dinosaurs had to be there after those particular humans whose footprints we had uncovered." He was convinced by this that Adamic man lived with the dinosaurs. However, it could be an animal with feet like ours. It does not prove to me that Adam was on Earth at the time the dinosaurs were.

"Dr. statement. What we have talked about--and particularly about human and dinosaur cohabitation--is not new. It is found in the biblical record. In Genesis 1 we learn that on the fifth day of creation great whales were created, great sea creatures and some of the water dinosaurs, and marine creatures. On day number six, God created the rest of the physical creation, such as the mammals and the dinosaurs. Man was also created and then, before the day was out, God created a mate for him. And God always does it right.

"So the introductory chapter of the book of Genesis shows man and dinosaur living contemporaneously. In Job 40:15 the statement is made, 'Behold now behemoth [the dinosaur], which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.' Man and dinosaur did live contemporaneously--the Bible tells us so."

I don't think so. The Bible does not have the word "dinosaur" in it. I think that is because Scripture is mainly about the 7000 years that begin with Adam. The dinosaurs were wiped out by that time. There were also flesh-eating dinosaurs as well as herbivorous ones. In Job, behemoth only eats grass as an ox. Young's Concordance says of behemoth, "a large beast. It is uncertain whether this is the elephant or the hippopotamus: but the weight of argument seems on the side of the latter." Unger's Bible Dictionary says it is a hippo. The elephant, hippo and rhino are pachyderms. V. 24 says, "his nose pierceth through snares." The rhino's horn on his nose might be indicated. It can pierce.

Dr. Wilson has the nerve to say that Abraham "quite likely" had the Epic of Gilgamesh on tablets with him when he came into Israel, "and that centuries later they came into the possession of the leader Moses who then edited them into the form of the book we now call Genesis."

To me, there could be no such possibility. God told Moses what to write. II Tim. 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
PS: Re: The expanse of space called the firmament in the KJV.
The word translated "heaven" in the KJV is literally "heavens" in the Hebrew in Gen. 1:1 (God created the heavens), 1:8 (God called the firmament Heavens), 1:9 (Let the waters under the heavens), 1:14 (Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens), 1:15 (let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens), and 1:17 (God set them in the firmament of the heavens).

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (NASB). This has to include the three heavens of II Cor. 12:2.

The word translated firmament, raqiya, means an expanse (of space). Surprisingly, this particular expanse has boundaries. There are waters above it, and the Sun is in it. Therefore the expanse reaches to the Sun on one side of Earth. Where do we see waters on the other side? in the rings of Saturn. Therefore the heavens include the three heavens mentioned by Paul in II Cor. 12.2. He was "caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven," (1)Mars, (2) Jupiter, (3) Saturn, which I think is our destination at the Rapture.

Ezekiel saw visions of the heavens. Eze. 1:1 (KJV) says, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God (i.e., Christ)." Ezekiel saw the Sun in the center and the four terrestrial planets orbiting around it in concentric circles. There was an expanse of space over their heads, i.e., farther out from the Sun. "And above the firmament (expanse, Green's Interlinear) that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone" (Eze. 1:26). Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani (Saturn) and priya (dear). I believe this is the location of Christ's throne. Verses 27 and 28 say, "and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." This represents Saturn's rings, "the sea of glass like unto crystal (krustallos, ice)" (Rev. 4:6). Some crystals catch the sunlight and break it into the spectrum as prisms do.

Therefore, it seems that this particular expanse we are being told about includes (1) the Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7, God's number of perfection) Saturn, which are also represented by the candlestick according to Josephus.

In Ant. III. VI. 7, he said, "It was made with its knops, and lilies, and pomegranates, and bowls, (which ornaments amounted to seventy in all;) by which means the shaft elevated itself on high from a single base, and spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them. It terminated in seven heads, in one row, all standing parallel to one another; and these branches carried seven lamps, one by one, in imitation of the number of the planets. These lamps looked to the east and to the south, the candlestick being situate obliquely."

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On Sept. 5, the Pope issued the document "Dominus Jesus," drafted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In it, he made it clear that the Catholic Church was the mother church. He also said that other Christian churches were "gravely deficient." Other Christian churches had "significance and importance in the mystery of salvation," but were said to "suffer from defects."

As could be expected, Jewish, Protestant and Muslim leaders took offense. They said that it threatened the inter-religious dialogue that has been part of John Paul's 22-year papacy.

To quiet the ruffled feathers and try to repair the damage, on 10-1-00, Pope John Paul II issued another document. Sunday, he said that he hoped "this declaration, which is close to my heart, will act as a clarification and as an opening." It says that other Christian churches contain "precious elements of salvation" and that "SALVATION IS NOT DENIED TO NON-CHRISTIANS" (emphasis mine).

The Pope, who claims infallibility, is not in agreement with Scripture. John 3:18 plainly says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

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It has just been announced that "Left Behind" the movie based on the series of novels by the same name penned by Tim LeHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins will be released in theaters nationwide on February 2, 2001.

Originally scheduled to be shot three years ago, this movie has been delayed for economic and other reasons until this time. Wouldn't it be interesting if this movie is either released nationwide just before, just after, or is playing at the time of the actual rapture. You know how powerful of a message a motion picture can deliver. Never in history has the message of the rapture ever been as widely presented as is will be in the release of this movie. It is very interesting that it has been delayed until this time.

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URL: Re: Shroud of Turin, 10-4-00

"Scientists: Relic authenticates Shroud of Turin
Exhaustive tests show sacred cloth much older than carbon-14 date," By Mary Jo Anderson,

This is an interesting article. The Sudarium of Oviedo is supposed to be the linen face cloth found in Christ's tomb. It is claimed that this cloth authenticates the Shroud of Turin.

They found dirt in the foot area of the Shroud that has in it marble dust. There are crystals of a relatively rare form of calcite, travertine argonite, found near the Damascus Gate.

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Re: The Shroud. Hello to all:
I hope this is as interesting to you all as it is to me. I found it on the Five Doves site:

It has to do with what's called the Sudarium, which was the face cloth that covered Jesus' face for the time prior to His being wrapped in the Shroud. Apparently, it has caused questions in the scientific community about radiob carbon dating. Here is a quote from the last paragraph of the article:
>>Juan Ignacio Moreno, a Spanish magistrate based in Burgos, Spain, asks the critical question. "The scientific and medical studies on the Sudarium prove that it was the covering for the same man whose image is [on] the Shroud of Turin. We know that the Sudarium has been in Spain since the 600s. How, then, can the radio carbon dating claiming the Shroud is only from the 13th century be accurate?"

Just thought I'd tickle your curiosity

Thanks. I don't know what to make of the Shroud of Turin, but I am very interested everything they turn up. My question has always been this. Was the body covered with a flat cloth, or was it wound in mummy-like wrappings, or both.

Mt. 27:59 says, "when Joseph had taken the body, he WRAPPED it in a clean linen cloth." Mk. 15:46 says, "he bought fine linen, and took him down, and WRAPPED him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre." Lu. 23:53 says, " he took it down, and WRAPPED it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre." Jn. 19:39,40 says, "there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and WOUND it in linen clothes with the spices, AS THE MANNER OF THE JEWS IS TO BURY." We can see how Lazarus was buried to compare them.

Jn. 11:43,44 says, "he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, BOUND HAND AND FOOT with graveclothes: and his face was BOUND about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go." If Lazarus could walk, his feet must have been wrapped separately. To me, wrapping with mummy-like strips makes sense to hold the spices next to the body.

The word WRAPPED is entulisso (from tulisso, to twist, and prob. akin to heilisso, to coil or wrap, roll together). Entulisso means to entwine, i.e., wind up in, wrap in (together). It is a different word from sparganoo, to wrap an infant in swaddling clothes.

The word BOUND, when Lazarus was "BOUND HAND AND FOOT," is deo, to bind or be in bonds, to wind, knit, tie. When Lazarus' face was BOUND, it is perideo, to bind around one, to enwrap.

Before we decide that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, we have to consider some other things. Even though wrapped like a mummy underneath, the body still could have been covered with a loose flat cloth. Also, if someone dies in bed, the sheet is pulled up over their head. If someone dies in an auto accident, it is covered with a flat piece of material. When Jesus' body was taken down from the cross, they probably covered the body with a cloth before carrying it to the tomb. That cloth could be something like the Shroud of Turin.

The detective in me is still looking for clues. The case is not yet solved, but their recent finding of marble dust on the bottom of the Shroud that is also found at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem is favorable. So is the Sudarium. Agape

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