Pro and Con 614

Posted 10-16-00

Incoming email

Re: A theory about the tribulation.
Firstly, absolutely wonderful page. It provides me with new insights all the time about the times in which we live. I started reading your site in around July and already my view on the endtimes has changed quite a bit. Up until then, I had figured that the end would happen within my lifetime, but not anytime very soon. Then A friend of mine recommended your site to me.

Anyhow, with some of the things you presented on your page, I realized just how soon this would be. Now, to my theory about the tribulation. I have done some major thought as to the tribulation and how it fits into the generation Jesus spoke of in the parable of the fig tree. Matthew 24:34 says, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." My interpretation of this is that the events of the end times, the tribulation, shall occur within the generation of the fig tree. I agree with the generation being 40 years and the fig tree's leaves being the land aquired in the 6 day war of 1967. The full tribulation would be 2520 days (The prophets prophesying being 1260 days, marking the halfway point of the tribulation.) The shortened tribulation would be 220 days shorter than that. (2520-2300=220) Here's where my theory comes into play.

Since these things are supposed to happen within the generation, shouldn't the tribulation start with enough time to take place entirely in the 40 year generation? Keeping that in mind, since the fig tree parable was fulfilled around the end of the 6 day war on June 11th (I believe), 1967, I would assume that the generational countdown would begin at the time of that fulfilment. Therefore, one would cound 40 years forward from that date approximately. That brings us to June 11th, 2007. That marks the end of the generation. Then, to figure out around when the tribulation would have to start to take place, I counted backwards from there seven years.

Unfortunately, that brings us to a date already passed. That perplexed me, as Matthew 24:34 clearly states that all these things will take place before the generation shall pass away. I looked for answers and I prayed about it.

What I've come up with, is that perhaps since God knows ahead of time that the tribulation is to be shortened, that it could perhaps start 2300 days prior to the end of the generation, instead of the 2520. If that were so, then it could start as late as around January 21st. This is my theory and I'd appreciate comments on it.

As to current events in Israel, things seem to be getting worse and worse. The conflicts there seem to be getting worse, I am beginning to think this may be leading up to the attack of Gog mentioned in Ezekiel 38. My understanding is that Gog is Russia. Well, a friend of mine said he thought that there was stuff going on with Russia and Arafat so I searched it and found an August article on In this article it said that Putin said that Russia supported a Palestinian state. In this article, it also said that "President Vladimir Putin told Yasser Arafat on Friday that Russia supports an independent Palestinian state, but also believes the Palestinians should continue negotiations with Israel on a peace deal." This was two months ago. With the current state of affairs I could see Arafat trying a desperate maneuver to try and force Israel out of existance.

Certainly, the Arab nations have a strong disliking of Israel, and he could rally them against Israel. If he could use whatever influence he has on Russia to get them to back him, it could very plausibly happen. I'm very interested in your opinion of my theories and await a reply. Either way, I think the end is very near. I hope it's soon, but it's worth the wait, and I'll be happy whenever it happens. This truly is an exciting time in which to live. A brother in Christ

My reply

Thanks for those kind words.

> > shouldn't the tribulation start with enough time to take place entirely in the 40 year generation?

Maybe the war was to take place in the first year and the Day of God's Wrath is to take place in the 40th year. 1967 + 40 = 2007. We know that the millennial Day of the Lord starts with the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets, which is Sept. 13, 2007. Back up the 2300 days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, and we come to the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel on the appropriate Feast of Weeks in 2001.

The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. They were ratified 3 days later in Israel on Tishri 1. If we start with Sept. 13, 1993, add 7 good years and 7 bad years, we come to Sept. 13, 2007. If we start with Tishri 1, 5754, add the 7 good and 7 bad years, we come to Tishri 1, 5768, which is also Sept. 13, 2007. That is too good to be by accident. To me, it seems like something God would do.

It is strange, but from Nisan 8, when Jesus came to Bethany in 30 AD, to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple and Jerusalem were burned, was 40 years plus another 120 days. From Iyar 28, when Israel took the temple in 1967, to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) is also 40 years plus another 120 days.

> > it could start as late as around January 21st

I think the Tribulation will start Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001).

The Rapture seems to be in the spring, according to Song of Sol. 2:10-14. Winter is past and the rain is over and gone. There are green figs and the grape vines are in blossom.

Isa. 18:3-7 may tie in and give us a good clue. See what you think. It says, "ALL YE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD, AND DWELLERS ON THE EARTH, SEE YE, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, HEAR YE (the trumpet of God sounds at the Rapture). For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For AFORE THE HARVEST (as Ascension Day is before Pentecost), WHEN THE BUD IS PERFECT, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower (in May), HE SHALL BOTH CUT OFF the sprigs with pruning hooks, AND TAKE AWAY (i.e., in the Rapure) and cut down the branches (i.e., cut off the foolish Laodicean virgins). THEY SHALL BE LEFT together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth (i.e., the Beast and the False Prophet, Rev. 13): and the fowls shall SUMMER upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. In that time (i.e., when the bud is perfect in the spring) shall the PRESENT BE BROUGHT UNTO THE LORD OF HOSTS (at the Rapture) of a people scattered and peeled, AND from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to THE PLACE of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion" (the heavenly one).

John 14:2-4 says, "I go to prepare A PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare A PLACE for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF (i.e., the Rapture); that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know."

> > this may be leading up to the attack of Gog mentioned in Ezekiel 38

I think that comes on the 2300th day of the Tribulation. Eze. 18-20 shows that it is the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the asteroid impacting the Mediterranean Sea (Rev. 8:8; Zeph. 2:4,5), and the day of the worldwide earthquake of Rev. 16:18.

This is on another subject, but I was reading the Concordant Version of Isaiah today while I waited for Ed at Cardiac Rehab. This caught my eye. Isa. 11:12 says, "He lifts up a banner for the nations, And gathers the expelled of Israel, And the scattered of Judah is He convening from the FOUR WINGS OF THE EARTH." This ties in with the four terrestrial planets, including Earth, being depicted as having four wings in Eze. 1:6. The wheels within wheels are their concentric orbits, and "one wheel upon the earth" (Eze. 1:15).

> > I think the end is very near

So do I. Maranatha. Agape

Incoming email

First I would like to say that much of your writing has been a real blessing to me in my desire to understand the types and shadows and obscure meanings in scripture. Especially as the issues relate to prophecy and the lateness of our time.

Occasionally however, we disagree which is quite OK as long as our dialogue is in the right spirit. In P&C 609 you gave a response to a book authored by Dr. Carl Baugh concerning his belief that man coexisted with dinosaurs. You made the following statements. "The Earth was inhabited by the animal kingdom before Adamic man was put on Earth. Fossils from that previous era show us some of what was on Earth in those ancient days. Many animal life forms existed that are not on Earth today."

Since you have previously stated that you believe (as I do) that the six creation days are literal and not long ages, how can you substantiate from scripture that animals existed long before man?

As far as Im aware, ONLY Genesis 1:20-31 speak of the timeline of the creation of animals and man. I am aware of your view of an "ancient kosmos" but generally speaking, the Bible is to be interpreted just as it is written (literally) unless the only view which makes any sense at all is (figurative). The six day account of creation in Genesis seems to be very straight forward and easy to understand. No theological stretches are needed to help our understanding. I once heard some famous Bible scholar say, "The Bible is not hard to understand, its hard to believe!" Also, I have read your frequently stated position that "scripture is the only rock hard truth we have" and that we must conform our thinking with it. I agree. Once again, can you provide me with another reference which speaks of the timeline of the creation of the animals and man? Thanks as always for your faithful response. In Christ.

My reply

I'm glad you are blessed by my efforts. It is only by the Lord's help that I can understand his word as well as I do. He said that without him, we could do nothing. That's the truth. To him be the glory.

> > how can you substantiate from scripture that animals existed long before man?

Job 38:4-11 took place BEFORE time began to be counted in this "kosmos" in which Adamic man lives. More than that, it took place before the 6 days of Gen. 1:3-31. It says, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all (100%) the sons of God (angels) shouted for joy (i.e., it might have been before 1/3rd sided with Satan)? Or who shut up the SEA with doors, WHEN IT BRAKE FORTH, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and THICK DARKNESS A SWADDLINGBAND, And BRAKE UP FOR IT MY DECREED PLACE, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?"

All that took place before the 6 days of refashioning Earth to make it a fit habitat for mankind. It took place before Gen. 1:2 that says, "the earth was (hayah, lit., became, showing that there was a change since the original creation) without form (tohu, ruin), and void (bohu, desolation); and darkness was (no verb in Heb., showing that here there was no change) upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved (lit., brooded) upon the face (surface) of the waters." The Concordant Version correctly has "Yet the earth BECAME a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos." All the land was drowned in the waters, much of it frozen, and thick darkness wrapped the Earth in a swaddlingband, after God broke up a large portion of the land and blasted it off of the Earth to form the Moon and to dig the Pacific Basin as a place for the sea.

Isa. 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created (bara) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, moulded into a form, as a potter) the earth and made (asah, refashioned) it (in 6 days); he hath established (kun, formed) it, HE CREATED (bara) IT NOT IN VAIN (tohu, ruin, as in Gen. 1:2), he formed (yatsar, moulded into a form) it to be INHABITED." Thus in the original creation, Earth was not "tohu," ruin. It became that way in the catastrophe between Gen. 1:1 and 2. The original creation was "INHABITED." It was not inhabited by Adamic man ("The FIRST man Adam," I Cor. 15:45), so it was inhabited by animals. We know from the bones found in the earth, that many of these prehistoric animals were huge.

There are other scriptures that help us understand what took place so long ago. Psa. 104:5-9 says that the Lord (1) "laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. (2) Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto THE PLACE which thou hast founded for them. Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth."

This "PLACE" is the "ONE PLACE" of Gen. 1:9. It says, " God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto ONE PLACE (the Pacific Basin), and let the dry land appear: and it was so." The NAB says, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a SINGLE BASIN, so that the dry land may appear."

Isa. 51:9 (NEB) says, "Awake, awake, put on your strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1), awake as you did LONG AGO, IN DAYS GONE BY, Was it not you who hacked the Rahab in pieces (split Satan's planet Rahab apart) and ran the dragon through." This seems to be because of a judgment against Satan. The Lamsa Bible says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake as in THE ANCIENT DAYS, AS IN THE GENERATIONS OF OLD. Surely it was thou that didst DECREE A SEVERE SENTENCE that didst slay the dragon (Satan)."

Job 26:11-14 (JB) says, "The pillars of the heavens tremble, awe-struck at his threats. By his power, he has whipped up the Sea, by his skill, he has CRUSHED RAHAB (Satan's planet, now the Asteroid Belt). His breath has made the heavens luminous (the blackness of space lit up by the impact explosions), his hand transfixed (chuwl, hurled, as with a whirlwind) the Fleeing Serpent (Satan). THIS IS ONLY A FRACTION OF WHAT HE HAS DONE AND ALL WE CATCH OF IT IS THE FEEBLEST ECHO." Agape

Incoming email

BBC News: Sudden end for dinosaurs, by Dr David Whitehouse, 8-2-00

...That a massive impact killed off the dinosaurs is now widely accepted. Rocks laid down at the time show an abundance of rare elements that could only have been part of a massive meteor that struck the Earth and disrupted the global climate.

...Hell Creek Formation...formed at the very end of the age of the Montana and North and South Dakota. It consists of about 175 metres (575 feet) of greyish sandstones and shales with interbedded lignites. Fossils such as those from the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex can be unearthed here....

...Dr Peter Sheehan, of the Department of Geology of Milwaukee Public Museum, and colleagues, conclude that dinosaurs were not gradually becoming extinct before the impact.

...there is no evidence of a barren zone just before the K-T boundary...dinosaurs were still flourishing when they were wiped out by a giant impact.
Dinosaur heart found, 4-20-00

The first ever fossilised dinosaur heart has been discovered by scientists in the US.

This means that dinosaurs, certainly the later ones, were probably warm-blooded and engaged in active behaviour

It was found in the remains of a 66 million-year-old creature dug up in South Dakota.

The researchers used a computer tomography (CT) scanner to investigate the organ....

...the beast's circulatory system was more advanced than that of reptiles, and supports the hypothesis that many dinosaurs were warm-blooded animals....

"Not only does this specimen have a heart, but computer-enhanced images of its chest strongly suggest it is a four-chambered, double-pump heart with a single systemic aorta, more like the heart of a mammal or bird than a reptile," said Dr Dale Russell, a palaeontologist at North Carolina State University who helped co-ordinate the study.

"...ventricles and aorta indicate it had completely separate pulmonary and body circulation systems, which suggests it had a metabolic rate higher than we generally see in living reptiles,"...

"...dinosaurs, certainly the later ones, were probably warm blooded and engaged in active behaviour," Dr Russell told the BBC. "They weren't sluggish animals. They were like the animals that we know - birds and mammals today."

Incoming email

Re: Cheshvan 17..the rapture?
If you are correct and the prewrath rapture is as the days of Lot and the rapture is the day before or on Tishri 1, then it only seems logical that if the pretrib rapture is "as the days of Noah were" then the perfect day for the rapture would be Cheshvan 17. Fire fell from Heaven the same day that Lot left Sodom, so it only makes since that we would enter the door and the door would be shut on the same day that Noah entered the ark. To me it makes more since than pentacost or any other day that has been discussed. I know the first thing you would bring up in an answer to this e-mail is the song of Soloman. I don't have an answer to that but maybe it has some symbolic message more than a literal one. agape

My reply

I agree that Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 15, 2000) could be the day of the Rapture--if Song of Sol. 2:10-14 does not apply. However, the Rapture seems to be a wheat harvest. Would it be likely to be harvested at planting time?

Jer. 5:24 says, "Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed WEEKS OF THE HARVEST." James 5:7-9 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the HUSBANDMAN waiteth for the precious FRUIT OF THE EARTH, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (former rain starts Tishri 1) and latter rain (starts Nisan 1). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren (believers), lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge (Christ) standeth before the door." The "open door" is set before the Philadelphian wise virgins (Rev. 3:8).

There will be no rain during the 1st half of the Tribulation. Rev. 11:6 says, "These (the two witnesses) have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

If the 70th week of Daniel/Tribulation starts on the next Feast of Weeks, the time slot for the Rapture could be between the end of Nisan, the end of the rainy season, and the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost. Ascension Day is when the head of the Body of Christ ascended. Maybe the rest of the Body to be in the 1st Rapture will ascend then too. Next Ascension Day will probably be May 18. Agape

Found on BBC News, Sci Tech DNA clues to Neanderthals, 10-11-00
Scientists have analysed the DNA of a third Neanderthal...And there is no evidence to indicate that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans...The DNA was extracted from remains of a Neanderthal found in Vindija Cave, Croatia...only two other samples of DNA from Neanderthal bones have been analysed.

One came from fossils found in Feldhofer Cave, western Germany, the other from a Neanderthal child found in Mezmaiskaya Cave in the northern Caucasus....

"The major question is if they were more like humans in having very little genetic differences within the group, or much variation like chimpanzees and the other apes,"...

...results suggest that they were more like us in having little variation rather than like the apes in having a lot....

Interbreeding unlikely
The DNA sequence of Neanderthals could also solve another age-old mystery: whether interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans may have taken place.

...these results give no evidence that interbreeding took place....The bones used in the new study were dated to at least 42,000 years ago....

"Neanderthals are different from modern humans - they are as different from Europeans as they are from Africans or Australians in this DNA"...

Incoming email

Re: 7 day warning, corner stone
I have said I think we will have a seven day warning that will be so wide spread that prepared Christians will recognize it. If you go to you will read that the Temple Mount Faithful have extensive plans to set the marble cornerstone of the new temple on the temple mount this coming Monday, Oct. 16, the third day of Sukkoth, at 9:00 a.m., Israeli time. That would be Sunday, 11 p.m., central standard time where I am. This article also says they have the approval of Israeli authorities and they will be protected by Israeli security forces.

I do not believe this could possibly happen with the violence that is presently going on. Surely this group will not be allowed to do this. Talk about provoking violence! If, however, a miracle occurs and they lay this cornerstone with major publicity, think I will count 7 days from Monday. Would 7 days from Monday have any significance? Is that any special day? You are the absolute authority on special days. The rapture doesn't have to happen on a special day but that is what we have thought for a long time.

What would you think if the cornerstone was laid? Love

My reply

Seven days from Monday, Oct. 16 (Tishri 17) would be Mon. Oct. 23 (Tishri 24), not a special feast day....

> > What would you think if the cornerstone was laid?

The police have not allowed it in previous years. However, if it did happen, I would think that they were a bit closer to renewing their sacrificing.

In the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9, if Israel has not shown fruit, she is to be dug about and dunged during the 4th year. We seem to be beginning to see this fulfilled. Jesus "spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." Israel should turn to the Lord. If they don't, the Tribulation will take place. Once it starts, I don't think anything will stop it until the Lord steps in and saves Israel.

Zech. 14:2,3 says, "I will gather ALL NATIONS (i.e., the united nation's army) against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when HE FOUGHT IN THE DAY OF BATTLE."

Joshua is the Hebrew equivalent of the English Jesus. Joshua 10:9-14, a type of Jesus' Long Day, says, "the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon (which means pertaining to a hill, i.e., the temple mount), and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron (house of the hollow), that THE LORD CAST DOWN GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN UPON THEM unto Azekah (dug over), and they died: THEY WERE MORE WHICH DIED WITH HAILSTONES THAN THEY WHOM THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL SLEW WITH THE SWORD. Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the SUN STOOD STILL, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for THE LORD FOUGHT FOR ISRAEL." The next time, it will totally be the Lord's doing.

Isa. 13:9-13 in the Literal Concordant Version says, "Behold! The day of Ieue (LORD) has come, cruel, with rage and hot anger, To make the ENTIRE EARTH A DESOLATION, And its sinners is He exterminating from it. For the stars of the heavens are not appearing, And their constellations are not irradiating their light. Dark is the sun in its faring forth, And the moon is not brightening with its light...Therefore the HEAVENS WILL I DISTURB, and the EARTH SHALL QUAKE FROM ITS PLACE, In the furious rage of Ieue (LORD) of hosts, And in the day of His hot anger."

It looks like the 7 good years are really past. As soon as we passed Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000), the status quo started to disintegrate. Agape

Note: Temple Mount Faithful banned from Mount, by Etgar Lefkovits

JERUSALEM (October 16) - In light of the tense security situation, Jerusalem police will not allow members of the Temple Mount Faithful to ascend the Temple Mount today...

The nationalistic group had scheduled a ceremony to anoint a "cornerstone for the Third Temple."...

The police said they will not allow the group to move the stone from its location at the American Consulate in east Jerusalem....

   Pro and Con 615   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-16-00