Pro and Con 615

Posted 10-18-00

Incoming email

Re: incorrect
...This is not the first time I have written to you but it will probably the last. I am just writing to inform and criticize you on a couple of things.

First, why is it that anytime anyone sends you an email regarding their thoughts and ideas on specific prophecies and dates concerning the Bible, you respond most times negatively? It is always "I think" with you as if you are infallible. Let me tell you something Lady, you are fallible. A good example of this would be your constant failings with regard to the rapture dates. It would seem to me that after being wrong for the last three years you might begin to acknowledge that you can't know the day or hour is a true statement. You can guess, as you did and you can also be wrong as you are. Why is it you think that only you have the answer? I have a scenario for you concerning the end times and how they will come about. You say that Russia will not invade Israel prior to the tribulation. I however, believe that is what will signal the start of the tribulation. Why is it the Jews burn the weapons for fuel for seven years? The exact lenght of the tribulation period. Is this a conincidence?

I think not, the fact is whether you were aware of this or not, that this prophecy and the rapture are the only two events in the Bible that are imminent. There are no dates given for these. I would suggest that this is more than likely that the rapture will take place just prior to or at the same time as this invasion. I also find it strange that Ezekial specifically names the nations that are involved in that conflict and it does not include all nations. In Revelations it states that all nations come against Israel. Did you get that part? ALL NATIONS. It is also interestingly enough noted that the merchants of Tarshish and her young lions (or offspring) do nothing to stop it. They simply ask why. History shows that Tarshish the people that settled England many centuries ago. The young lions thereof refers to the commonwealth nations and the United States. It is funny don't you think that while virtually everyone voted for a resolution against Israel for the last weeks of violence in the middle east, that the US abstained from voting. Period.

...I would just like to say that it is nice that you long for the Lord's return. So do I but I will not go so far as to give an exact date as to when it takes place. That all depends on what happens as far as Russia and the Arabs are concerned. Do not think that I am here to judge you. I am sending this to you in the hopes that you will come to realize the errors of your ways. I would suggest that you read the scriptures of Ezekiel and Revelations with an open mind. Do not add things that aren't there. Look at the obvious. The Bible is literal. Any symbolism is explained. In other words, let the Bible speaks where it speaks and let it be silent where it is silent. One more thing before I go. Read Ezekiel 40 after you read Ezekial 38 and 39. Note that it describes the rebuilding of the temple. This is interesting indeed. Sorry the email is so long, it would be longer if I wrote everything that I could write. For these purposes however, I will not. 'Nuff said. Yours in Christ

My reply

> > It is always "I think" with you as if you are infallible.

I say, "I think" and that this is "my opinion" to show that I am not infallible. It IS my opinion. Not being a prophet, I cannot speak for God. I have to speak for myself only. Not being you, I cannot speak for you. I can only speak for me. Why do you suppose I say, "I think"? It is because no human being is infallible, unless God has made them a prophet and is putting words in their mouth, and I don't think we have any of those on Earth today. Moses and Elijah will be here soon though.

We can all make mistakes. I agree with statements that I think are right. I am teachable and want to learn new things. However, I cannot agree with some statements that I think are wrong. I can't be wishy washy. I must tell what I think. I am obligated to back up what I say with Scripture and not to down others because we have different opinions. Each has a right to their own opinions.

Our discussions should be friendly, giving reasons why we believe as we do, ever ready to change our opinion if Scripture warrants it. I need to give my reasons for believing as I do, and James 5:9 says, "Grudge not one against another, brethren (believers), lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." Can't we discuss the pro and cons of this matter in Christian agape love? Shouldn't we approach this thinking that I believe this way, you believe another way, but let's see what the scriptures say? That way, we can each profit by the other's insight into certain areas. No one person knows it all. I am anxious to learn what the Lord has caused others to understand that I do not yet understand. We are not all poured into the same mould.

I have studied the Bible as hard as I can go for 40 years, and I have a right to express my opinion, just as you do. I asked the Lord for understanding, and I have an obligation to share what I have learned as I see it. I can't see through your eyes, so the only way I can do that is to tell what I see through my own eyes. If I am to be judged for what I say, I must say what I actually think.

> > You say that Russia will not invade Israel prior to the tribulation. I however, believe that is what will signal the start of the tribulation.

You have a right to your opinion. However, I personally could not in good conscience say that Russis would invade Israel prior to the Tribulation. I can see very clearly that it takes place on the Day of God's Wrath. It is what causes the Lord to fight for Israel in that day. Eze. 38:18-23 says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME WHEN GOG SHALL COME AGAINST THE LAND OF ISRAEL, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and IN THE FIRE OF MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5, because of the asteroid impact of Rev. 8:8), and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, shall shake (the worldwide earthquake of Rev. 16:18) at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and the mountains (2 asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword (' The sword of the LORD,' Judges. 7:18, the 'flaming sword' of Gen. 3:24) against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone (because of the asteroid impacts). Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the EYES of many nations (the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Eze. 39:4, 7-10 says to Gog, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee ('many people,' Eze. 38:6): I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured....So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I WILL NOT LET THEM POLLUTE MY HOLY NAME ANY MORE (i.e., it is the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord): and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, IT IS COME (the asteroid impact), AND IT IS DONE (God's wrath has been poured out), saith the Lord GOD; THIS IS THE DAY whereof I have spoken (the Feast of Trumpets, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord). And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years (the 1st 7 of the Millennium): SO THAT THEY SHALL TAKE NO WOOD OUT OF THE FIELD, neither cut down any out of the forests."

> > Why is it the Jews burn the weapons for fuel for seven years?

So the trees can regrow after the asteroid impacts on the Day of God's Wrath burns them. Even in the hail of 100 lb. rocks, each meteoroid will come in from space burning.

Rev. 16:17 echoes Eze. 39:8, saying, "IT IS DONE." Rev. 16:18-21 shows the results: "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, so mighty an earthquake, and so great (all the men in the world will shake, Eze. 38:20). And the great city was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL (Eze. 38:20 says that every wall will fall): and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH (the 2nd asteroid impact will destroy Babylon, Rev. 18:21). And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every STONE about the weight of a talent (about 100 lbs.): and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Eze. 39:21 says, "all the heathen shall see MY JUDGMENT THAT I HAVE EXECUTED, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from THAT DAY (the 1st of the Millennium) and forward." Isa. 66:8 says, "Shall the earth be made to bring forth in ONE DAY? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as ZION TRAVAILED, she brought forth her children."

> > I would suggest that this is more than likely that the rapture will take place just prior to or at the same time as this invasion.

I too think that a Rapture will take place just before the asteroid impacts Earth--the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > I also find it strange that Ezekial specifically names the nations that are involved in that conflict and it does not include all nations. In Revelations it states that all nations come against Israel. Did you get that part? ALL NATIONS.

Yes. I think the united nations' army under Gog will include forces of all nations. Eze. 38:6 says, "and many people with thee." Zech. 14:2 says, " I will gather ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." Isa. 34:2 says, "For the INDIGNATION of the LORD is upon ALL NATIONS, and his fury upon ALL THEIR ARMIES: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter."

> > History shows that Tarshish the people that settled England many centuries ago. The young lions thereof refers to the commonwealth nations and the United States.

Be very careful. British-Israelism is false doctrine. Rev. 3:9 warns, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." You want to be on the right side in this situation. Everything that the Lord has promised Israel will come true for literal Israel.

> > Read Ezekiel 40 after you read Ezekial 38 and 39. Note that it describes the rebuilding of the temple.

That is the millennial temple. When the millennial Day of the Lord starts, Christ will be given his kingdom in a ceremony in Heaven (Dan. 7:9-14). Like Solomon, he will purge his kingdom right at the beginning. After that, the Second Advent will take place and the millennial temple will be built.

> > I would suggest that you read the scriptures of Ezekiel and Revelations with an open mind.

That is the way I read all Scripture. I want to know all that it has to say to me. There is so much packed into the Bible that no person can understand everything. All we can do is keep studying and learning, letting the Bible interpret itself. Agape

His reply

Re: incorrect
Thanks for the response. I really wasn't expecting one. I may have appeared to be condemning or judging you in my last email to you however that was not my intent. I believe I had noted that anyway. However, I do feel that I have been given insight into things as well, and as I stated I believe that the Gog Magog invasion is what will trigger the 7 year tribulation period. I could go on about this for hours and hours but I won't. It is obvious that we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. At any rate, I visit your sight virtually everyday to read the pros and cons, which I find very insightful at times. So let me just say that although I don't agree with everything you say (very little actually) I respect the fact that you long for the Lord's return as much as I do. Again no disrespect was intended by my prior email. Yours in Christ P.S. what is meant by AGAPE?

My reply

We can agree to disagree agreeably, but why don't you give me the scriptures that back up your position. How can you ever hope to convince anyone that you are right without showing exactly why you believe as you do? I gave you the scriptures that show that the battle of Eze. 38 comes on the same day as the outpouring of God's wrath to stop it. Where is the proof of your position found in God's Word?

Agape is the Greek word translated "charity" in the KJV, and "love" in the NIV. It is the best kind of love, God's love, "agape," not "phileo," brotherly love. I Cor. 13:1-13 (NIV) says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love (agape), I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs...Love never fails....And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

I Jn. 4:8 (KJV) says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." It is one of his attributes, an inherent characteristic of his, just as he is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and perfect justice. Verse 16 says, "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." Because God is love, and he dwells in us, we love the brethren (believers) with God's agape love and have fellowship one with another. God's love flows between us. Agape

Incoming email

Re: What about The Feast of Tabernacles?
God bless you. The anticipation continues to mount with each passing day. The most recent P/C 611 raised the question of whether the Feast of Tabernacles might be a possible day for the pre-tribulation rapture.

Is it not the third feast day in the year which began with the Feast of Trumpets, followed by the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)? Could this possibly correspond to the "third day", representative of those occasions where a powerful manifestation of God appeared? The calling together of the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai; the calling apart of Peter, James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, even the Resurrection of Jesus Christ all occurred on "the third day." The third day from the creation in Genesis has been an occasion for God to "gather together." Genesis 1:9-12 relates what happened on the "third day":
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after hi kind: and God saw that it was good.

So our being gathered together with the Lord is consistent with this pattern established on "the third day."

Another factor to consider is that the Solomon's Temple was dedicated on the Feast of Tabernacles (I Kings 8:2). In light of its being called the feast of ingathering, bringing in the labor of the field and the fruit of the earth, conceivably those gathered together would be "firstfruits" unto the Lord. The rapture of the those who dutifully watch and wait, would certainly represent God's judgment, "that must begin at the house of God." The pre-tribulation rapture could be the catalyzing force that pulls the remaining members of the Body of Christ together to do the job God designed the Church to do. In a similar way the widespread persecution after Stephen's death was a unifying factor in the first Century Church.

As to whether or not the approaching Feast of Tabernacles is our "appointed time", we'll just have to wait and see. Indeed, we won't have to wait long. We just "look up, for our redemption draweth nigh." Agape

My reply

I wish the Rapture would be on this upcoming Feast of Tabernacles, but it would be a stretch to call Tabernacles the third day. Tishri is the 7th month. Tabernacles is the 3rd feast in the 7th month. The Sacred Year starts in the spring with Nisan. In order of occurrence, the feasts are (1) Passover, (2) Feast of Unleavened Bread, (3) Feast of Firstfruits, (4) Pentecost/Feast of Weeks, (5) Feast of Trumpets, (6) Day of Atonement and (7) Feast of Tabernacles. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Jews, sleeping out doors?
Imagine, with the incredible tension in Israel and the high level of fear for personal safety, believing Jews are being asked to sleep out of doors for the next seven days! Could that explain the sudden lull in flighting? G-d is proving that he is in control of times, seasons, feasts and nations.

And just in case you missed the two posts (below) they describe the prophetic events from Rosh HaShannah through Yom Kippur and on to Succoth. This should leave us in total awe.

FWD: William Zambrano MD. 10-13-00 The Jewish Feast of Succos begins Friday night, October 13, 2000. The following commentary on this feast is via Rabbi Chaim Salenger:

Every Succos we read the Ezekiel, Chapter 38 about the final confrontation at the end of days between Gog and the nation of Israel. How does Succos connect with Gog, Magog and the end of days? It is ironic to note that after the exodus from Egypt, while travelling in the desert, a place that offers absolutely no natural security or protection, the Jewish people experienced their greatest sense of true security, protected from their enemies and entirely provided for by G-d. Every year, when the Jew leaves his home for a week to eat, sleep and live in a succah; an often flimsy structure with a roof made of bits of wood, reed, bamboo, etc., he actualizes this idea that ultimate care and protection come only from G-d. By virtue of the closeness to G-d he has achieved during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, he can now experience a sense of true security. The word "Gog" in Hebrew means roof. Modern man, divorced from a belief in G-d, deeply believes that a good job, a big bank account, a solid economy, a high tech army, in short, a strong solid "roof over his head," is the source of true security. These two world views cannot co-exist forever. We are told by the prophets that armageddon is inevitable, a final confrontation that will witness the destruction of mankind's false faith. Succos teaches us that our apparently flimsy roofs will ultimately be triumphant over modern man's misguided sense of security.

FWD from 5doves site: Jovial (12 Oct), "Mid-East recent events and the Fall Feasts"

The Hillel calendar is about a day late this year, since the observed new moon was the day before the official Tishri 1. Knowing this, take a look at some of the events that happened this month in Israel. Someone pointed out to me that...

1. The current conflict in Israel began on the observed (astronomical) Rosh HaShannah when Ariel Sharon ascended the Temple Mount.

2. For ten days exactly, the U.N. Security Council determined their judgement of Israel. Much like Jewish tradition teaches that each man's judgement is weighed during the Days of Awe.

3. On the day before Yom Kippur, every Nation on the Security Council (except the USA) voted against Israel, and thus sealed their fate. According to Jewish tradition, Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah) is associated with opening the heavenly books, etc., and Yom Kippur is associated with sealing them and sealing each man's fate. Selah

My reply

It sure seems that the 7 good years ended as Tishri 1, 5761 began. Right away, terrible things began to happen. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Heaven?
I saw your website on the location of Heaven however you never said exactly where it was or even where you thought it was. From all the clues it seems as if it would be Mars. Is this true? Didn't Astronauts and bots go there and look at the planet? If it isn't Mars or if you think it is, please let me know...just curious.... might even buy a telescope.

My reply

Astronauts only went to the Moon. They sent a robot to Mars.

I can tell that you don't read my Pro and Cons. I have explained where I think Heaven is located numerous times. The simplest way to tell is II Cor. 12:2. Paul was caught up to the third heaven. I count (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter and (3) Saturn.

Ezek. 1:26-28 says, "above the firmament that was over their heads (i.e., above the four terrestrial planets orbiting the Sun in concentric rings) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone (which means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Christ) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn has golden clouds with amber stripes around it), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (i.e., from the equator, as in a different translation) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about (Saturn's ring system). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."

According to Josephus, the lampstand in the temple represented the planets, and the Sun among them (Ant. III. VI. 7). The western light that was always to be kept burning would represent the Sun. From there to the east, the lamps represented their known planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, the last of the naked-eye planets. The semi-circular arms of the base represent the orbits of the planets, just as the wheels within wheels of Eze. 1:16 and 10:10 do.

I believe Earth is one of the four terrestrial planets in Ezekiel's vision. The central Sun is "a fire infolding itself" (Eze. 1:4). The four cherubim are seen with 4 wings in Eze. 1:6. Isa. 12:12 in the Literal Concordant Version says of Earth, "the scattered of Judah is He convening from the FOUR WINGS OF THE EARTH." Eze. 1:15 says, "behold one wheel (orbit) upon the EARTH."

Eze. 10:1 says, "in the firmament (expanse of space) that was above the head of the cherubims (4 terrestrial planets) there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone (meaning dear to the planet Saturn), as the appearance of the likeness of a throne" (Christ's throne).

A sapphire stone is a symbol of Heaven. That is why at Sinai, "they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as (symbolic language) it were the body of heaven (i.e., the heavenly body we call Heaven) in his clearness" (Gen. 24:10).

In Jn. 14:2-4, Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare A PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare A PLACE for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also. And WHITHER I GO YE KNOW." They knew of the planets from the Sun to Saturn. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Rapture: Worthy and Ready!
Please read...Pls counter check with the bible and email me if you have any comments/feeling/thoughts/whatsoever regarding what I had written whether is it good/bad/ridiculous/whatsover....

My reply

> > There still will be Christians that left behind after the second Rapture, along with those that is not in the book of life, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

No true Christian, one that has accepted Christ as their own personal Saviour, will be "cast into the everlasting fire." Every believer has his name written in the Book of Life. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, those that have only built wood, hay and stubble on the foundation that is Christ will not receive rewards for their work. However, they themselves will be saved. I Cor. 3:15 says, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

> > The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13:24-30) This is the first "The kingdom of heaven is" parable in the gospel. To me, this parable means more to a person, it means more than a enemy of yours does. To me, it means you, you yourself is the greatest enemy, for we know we are sinners after all. For sin are so bonded to us that only at end times can the Lord differentiate the good from the bad, and sent the bad to everlasting fire.

The tares are sown by the "devil" (Mt, 13:39). Those are lost.

> > In Matthew 21, Jesus told His disciples (two of them) to fetch for him an ass (donkey) and a colt. You see, to me this is a very important event for the possibility of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I will explain it shortly. Letís us first look up the meaning of an ass and a colt. See, the reason that Jesus called His disciples to get the ass and the colt and not the ass only because, the ass and the colt in this chapter represents the Jews and the Gentiles. By doing this, Jesus told His disciples that he is fulfilling the prophet who is prophesying this event....
> > Jesus on an ass - the ass represent peace. Jesus on a horse - the horse represent war
> > ...Jesus will come back for the Jews and Gentiles at a time of peace (Pre-Tribulation) and He will be back for the rest of the people at a time of war (Pre-wrath)....

I don't think the Pre-Wrath Rapture is at the Second Advent when Jesus returns riding a white horse. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture is pre-wrath, and there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1 and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1 in a Jewish Leap Year.

> > Question: How could it be possible if Jesus had already fulfilled the prophecy at Matthew 21?

Two animals symbolize the coming of the King at 2 different times. Mt. 21:5 in the Literal Concordant Version says, "Lo! your King is coming to you, Meek, and mounted on an ass, And on a colt, the foal of a yokebeast." Jesus, the "King," rides on one animal at his First Advent and on another animal at his Second Advent.

> > I been asking and praying through this question. Remember Jesus say in Matthew 23:36 ĎAssuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generationí. Jesus had fulfilled it before the destruction of Herodís temple in AD 30. What about this generation?

All the things that were to come upon that generation came upon them 40 years later, in 70 AD, when the temple and Jerusalem were burned.

> > Oh Lord, we await you arrival

Amen. Maranatha. Agape

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