Pro and Con 616

Posted 10-19-00

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Re: A STUDY on the word "IT" in Lu. 21
...Luke 21:8-12 has already occured, while we are here on earth, before rapture and tribulation.
Between verse 12 and 13 is when the rapture of the church occurs. Verse 13, the key word is "IT".
13 And "IT" shall turn to you for testimony....Now we go on to read, that the tribulation has started, as in verse 16 proves that. People being turned in to the world order by both parents and brethren, and kinsfolks and friend, and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. This is the martyring going on during the trib....

My reply

> > Between verse 12 and 13 is when the rapture of the church occurs.

I don't think so. In Lu. 21:12-14, Jesus said to the disciples of 30 AD, "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on YOU, and persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to YOU for a testimony. Settle it therefore in YOUR hearts, not to meditate before what YE shall answer."

Just before Jesus told them this, he said that there "shall be" (in the future) great signs from heaven. Then he dropped back to start again with the disciples. By v. 24, he reached our days when he said, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This brings us to 1967, when the rest of Jerusalem and the temple area again belonged to Israel.

Then Jesus picks up the former theme, the signs in the Sun, Moon and constellations, in v. 25. In v. 28, the Rapture is nigh. It says, " when these things (the signs) begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth NIGH." He continues this theme in the parable of the fig tree, and says, "when ye see these things come to pass (in 1967), know ye that the kingdom of God is NIGH at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Forty years from 1967 is the end of this age. By that time, both Raptures will have taken place, separated by the 2300-day shortened Tribulation plus a gap that comes between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Tribulation (Rev. 17:12-14).

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Re: Rapture/Tribulation
Will the Rapture come prior to the seven years of tribulation? Will the HOLY SPIRIT leave the earth with the rapture? If so, who will discourage those that are left to take the mark of the beast? I am new at this and very curious. Please help me to understand - please provide scriptural backing. Thanks!

My reply

> > Will the Rapture come prior to the seven years of tribulation?

Yes. Rev. 3:10,11 in the Literal Concordant version says, "Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be keeping you OUT OF (ek, 'from' in the KJV) the hour of trial which is about to be coming on the whole inhabited earth to try those dwelling on the earth. I am coming swiftly! Hold what you have, that no one may be taking your wreath" (crown).

The group caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture are seen in Heaven around Christ in Rev. 1:12,13. In the KJV, it says, "IN THE MIDST OF the seven candlesticks (representing the 7 churches, v. 20) one like unto the Son of man (Christ), clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hars were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire."

This group surrounding Christ is the Bride of Christ, just caught up to Heaven in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10. In the Bible, a woman often represents a religious group. Jer. 31:22 says, "the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man." The woman is the Bride of Christ. The word "compass" is "cabab" in Hebrew. It means to surround, to be on every side of, just as in Rev. 1:10, Christ is "in the midst of" the churches.

The Bride of Christ is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, BEFORE the "book," the Title Deed of the Earth, is given Christ, BEFORE the 1st seal on it is broken in Rev. 6. Rev. 5:9 says this group of saints is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

> > Will the HOLY SPIRIT leave the earth with the rapture?

No, not entirely. God is spirit (Jn. 4:24), also omnipresent (I Ki. 8:27). "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). What will be removed is his restraining influence, his holding back the revelation of the wicked one, the False Prophet. The FP will be revealed when he confirms (Dan. 9:27) the covenant with the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10. This act will kick off the Tribulation.

> > who will discourage those that are left to take the mark of the beast?

Those left on Earth are to be tested. The indwelling Holy Spirit will give the believers the strength they need to stand the testing, but many will have to be martyrs.

When a Christian first accepted Christ, "he was purged from his OLD sins" (II Peter 1:9). When he sins after that, he must confess it to God, so that the Lord can cleanse him from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9). This is called letting Jesus wash our feet. John 13:8 says, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me." If we want to be part of the Bride of Christ and go in the 1st Rapture, we must be wearing spiritual white robes of righteousness (Rev. 3:18; 19:8). In Jn. 13:10, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit." Agape

Incoming email

What do make of the Palestinean uprising in Isreal? Do you think it's going to all blow over or do you think there is going to be a war. I think if a war starts we may see the coming of the Anti-Christ to settle the peace negotiations for the first 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. Something tells me we are very close to the rapture. What's your opinion?

My reply

I don't know how much fighting they will have. There are to be wars and rumors of wars, so it is hard to tell about that. However, I expect the Tribulation Pope (the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10) to confirm the 7-year covenant with the leader in Israel as the Tribulation begins. It looks like that will be next Pentecost. I think we will be gone by then, maybe on Ascension Day if not before. Agape

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Re: Heaven?
Did you know Venus also fits this description. It is both a morning star and an evening star. It as all the aspects of ice, clouds, etc. It conceivably can be heaven as well. it is also known to be a blue star.

So you think it's Saturn? Too many "henseforths, hitherto's, and wherefors" for me to understand the point.

My reply

I don't see how it could be Venus. How could Venus be the third heaven? In II Cor. 12:2, Paul was caught up to the third heaven: (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter and (3) Saturn. That's easy to understand.

Roughly speaking, Saturn is a morning star in the spring and summer and an evening star in the late fall and winter. Jesus said he would give "the morning star" to the overcomers. If we go beyond 2/3rds of the month of November, I'll think the Rapture will be more likely next spring when Saturn will again be a morning star. In Rev. 2:28, Jesus said, "I will give him the morning star." Agape

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Fwd: What's at Babylon? 9-26-00 (omitted, too long, excerpts below) Babylon, Iraq in Bible Prophecy: www.rapturewatch.com

My reply

> > the Babylon International Festival, a cultural event that began Friday night

That would have been 9-22-00, the first day of autumn.

> > Jeremiah Chapters 50 and 51, Babylon, Iraq is destined to be destroyed by a great confederation of nations in these last days. The description of the destructive power that will be unleashed does not harmonize with Babylon being only a restored archaeological site reserved for festivals and tourists. There is a great threat hidden underneath Babylon, in our opinion, that will justify the nation's decision to utilize weapons of mass destruction against this apparently harmless parcel of land.

Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a STONE like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." I think his "stone" is the asteroid of Rev. 8:10. It says, "there fell a great star (aster, star, burning meteor, or asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp."

I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It says, "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces."

Jer. 23:19,20 says, "a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The ANGER OF THE LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly." Until the latter days, NEA's (Near Earth Asteroids) were not known. Now, we can understand what will destroy Babylon.

Rev. 8:8-11 says, "the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood."

Evidently this asteroid will be a binary that will break apart at the Roche Limit, about 11,000 miles out. The larger piece will destroy Babylon, the headquarters of the One World Government and United Religions during the Tribulation. The smaller piece will impact the Mediterranean Sea (Zech. 2:4,5), wiping out all but 1/6th of Gog's army that will be attacking Israel (Eze. 38-39:6).

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (his planet Rahab was split into pieces forming the Asteroid Belt), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (Satan now lives on a piece of that planet)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Satan will be cast down to Earth Mid-Trib. Then on the Day of God's Wrath, his star (aster) will be tossed down to Earth and will destroy Babylon.

I believe this asteroid is the key of the bottomless pit. Rev. 9:1-3 says, "the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a STAR FALL FROM HEAVEN UNTO THE EARTH: and to him was given THE KEY OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts (symbol of demons) upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

Jer. 50:13 ties the final destruction of Babylon in with the wrath of the Lord. It says, "Because of THE WRATH OF THE LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues." Verses 23-25 say, "How is the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH (i.e., the impacting asteroid) cut asunder (from the planet Rahab) and broken (when it impacts Earth)! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations! I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD. The LORD HATH OPENED HIS ARMOURY, AND HATH BROUGHT FORTH THE WEAPONS OF HIS INDIGNATION: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans."

Jer. 50:39,40 says, "it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation. As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (with an asteroid impact) and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein." Verse 46 says, "At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations."

Jer. 51:4-9 says, " For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the TIME OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE; he will render unto her a recompence. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for HER JUDGMENT REACHETH UNTO HEAVEN, AND IS LIFTED UP EVEN TO THE SKIES." Verses 25 and 26 say, " Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and ROLL THEE DOWN FROM THE ROCKS, and will make thee A BURNT MOUNTAIN. And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD."

Jer. 51:36,37 says, "thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy cause, and take VENGEANCE for thee; and I will dry up her sea, and make her springs dry. And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant." Agape

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Re: Links to website with devotional/exhortational endtime articles
I am an Aussie living in the USA now for half my life. I saw your wonderful website with a lot of excellent articles. I bring you greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus. Here are some devotional/exhortational articles I have written that you may link to your website if you wish. I really do believe that our future even as Hosea found love with his wife again finding her in the Valley of Achor or trouble. Even in deepening secular and religious darkness our walk in the Spirit will lead us along a "highway of holiness"-Isa.35:8-10. There, as Madame Guyon discovered, we shall enter into realms of glory the likes of which we are at present unable to imagine. I really do believe that this is a journey of the heart more than merely an intellectual scriptural exercise. We can only interpret from scripture what our heart allows us or what our heart can bear. That is why God goes slowly with us....

The "Rapture Train Shuffle" is a play. It shows the inseparable blood covenant bond we have with all the saints that have gone before us and with the ones who will finish the last leg of the relay race of this age. We shall all be together in the harvest/last day event of the first resurrection-rapture.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/9345/gavin/rtrain.html...

I pray God will continue to anoint you as you minister to Him in your writings. Blessings to you on the journey, your servant in Christ

My reply

You wrote:
> > "I will be taking every last one of you out of here precisely on time and as promised". "And when will that be?" I whimper. Michael replies, "We'll be pulling out when the seventh and last trumpet blows."

Do you realize that if this were true, the saints would receive the 7 trumpet judgments on the Day of God's Wrath? The Day of God's Wrath comes in Rev. 6:17, before the first trumpet sounds in Rev. 8. Rev. 6:17 says, "the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev. 8:2 says, " I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

All 7 trumpets are sounded by angels. Haven't you noticed that the "trump of GOD" sounds at the Rapture? God is not an angel. He does not sound the 7th trumpet. I Thess. 4:16-18 says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words."

I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." We are not to receive the 1st trumpet judgment, much less the rest of them. Do you think God would leave his saints on Earth when the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth when the 2nd and 3rd trumpets sound? Is that what we are to COMFORT each other with? No!

Rev. 11:17,18 places all saints in Heaven receiving their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ at the same time that the unbelievers on Earth are receiving their just rewards for their unbelief. It says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

We are to be kept out of the trial that is to come upon all the world. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (ek, out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Therefore, we are to watch and pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape these terrible things. In Lu. 21:36, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Only the wise virgins who have prepared themselves go with the Bridegroom when he comes. The foolish virgins are left behind. The difference is that the wise have allowed Jesus to wash their feet, as Jesus washed Peter's feet. How do we do this? We use I Jn. 1:9, confess sins committed after we first accepted Christ, so he can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The wise virgins are ready. They are in fellowship with our Holy God. They have enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies). They will "escape all these things that shall come to pass, and...stand before the Son of man" in Heaven the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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Re: 2520 and 2300 Days
I have been reading Revelations 2000 by you once again as I sit in my study watching the sudden explosion of Anti Semitism. These are thoughts, I may be on the wrong path here but could you be so kind as to consider:

1) We agree the Day of The Lord "that day" is the busiest day ever. But it is only ONE day, that is 24 hours. Many Bible Scholars have suggested that it is a longer time period. Am I correct in interpreting that "that day" is the END of the Dispensation of Grace?

2) Based on this "end", on "that day", the LORD comes (second advent) seven months later, which of course requires a Jewish Leap Year.

3) The tribuluation is shortened to 2300 days for the sake of the Saints. The 2300nd day would be "that day". 2300 days plus the seven months (7 x 30) to the Second Advent does not add up to 2520 days. Now I know that the average of a Jewish Month is 30 days, not the absolute count. I do not understand well enough the relation of the monthly counts, could there be an extra ten days in seven months from Rosh Hashannah to the second advent?

4) I have not been able to rationalize these extra ten days, therefore I have been looking BACK 220 days from the start of the Tribulation, May 28 of 2001. We all agree that this is the start of the Tribulation.

5) Subtracting the 220 days brings us back to, how appropriate, the middle of October 2000. Right about now!

6) The sixth temple has to be built, so that the daily sacrifices are done. as the Tribulation starts May 28, 2001. The issue I can not resolve in my thinking is that if the Pre-Trib Rapture did not occur until next ascension day in 2001, how could a temple possibly be built in even a few weeks?

My conclusion is that next Ascension Day is too late, especially considering the current situation in Jerusalem, as I write this on Yom Kippur.

We agree that everything is falling into place, that is for sure. We agree also that all must stay prepared, and confess our daily sins with 1John1:9. I am suggesting to all the Spirit Filled Believers to once again be watching for HIS appearing ANY DAY, even if is suggested to occur sometime after October 2000. Agape

My reply

> > "that day" is the END of the Dispensation of Grace?

I think you have good understanding. Yes, I think "that day" is the 2300th day of the Tribulation, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and therefore the end of the Dispensation of Grace. If the Tribulation/70th week of Daniel starts on Pentecost/Feast of Weeks in 2001, "that day" 2300 days later falls on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. It is an actual count of the days, not adjusted to a so-called prophetic year of 360 days.

Since there is an extension to the Age of the Jews, it seems that there is also an extension to the Age of the Gentiles and the Age of the Church, all 3 to run concurrently during the Tribulation. This extension is the trial that shall come upon "ALL THE WORLD" mentioned in Rev. 3:10, which the Bride of Christ is to be kept from. It is not just on the Jews. This trial is upon every nation and people in all the world. Its end is so severe that it could not have taken place as the previous ages ended.

The 1st Adam was placed on the Earth after 6 days of preparation. Then on Tishri 1, this "kosmos" began to operate as God rested. In these latter days, there will be 6 years of preparation before the millennial day of rest begins. The Millennium is called the "sabbatismos" in Heb. 4:9: "There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God." Psa. 149:5 reflects this. It says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds." The 2nd Adam will return to Earth after the 6 years of preparation for the Millennial rest. I expect the 1st day of the Millennium on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) and the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008). There are 7 Jewish months between those dates because 5768 is a leap year with the 13th month.

> > The 2300nd day would be "that day". 2300 days plus the seven months (7 x 30) to the Second Advent does not add up to 2520 days.

I think that Christ will return on the first day of the Jewish Regnal year, Nisan 1. On that day, the sanctuary will probably be cleansed. Dan. 8:13,14 says, " How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED." Eze. 45:18 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY." Verse 21 says, " In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

The next day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the 2520th day of the 70th week of Daniel/Tribulation. It seems that Satan has dominion until then. Therefore, I expect the Judgment of the Nations to be in the following day. It would be fitting that dominion be taken from Satan on the Feast of Firstfruits, because it was that Resurrection Day in 30 AD when Christ won out over Satan.

> > could there be an extra ten days in seven months from Rosh Hashannah to the second advent?

Not on the Talmudic Jewish Calendar. I have counted the exact number of days.

> > if the Pre-Trib Rapture did not occur until next ascension day in 2001, how could a temple possibly be built in even a few weeks?

They could just build the altar and start sacrificing as they did in Ezra's day. I thought Rev. 11:1-3 indicated that the temple was there to start the Tribulation, and that Moses and Elijah would be the ones that actually go into the temple, but time will tell. If the UN takes control, things could change in a hurry. Also, Israel may have more prepared for the temple than we know about. I'll just have to keep watching and see what develops. One thing I am sure of, every detail will go as God has planned. I thank the Lord that he is in charge of it all.

No matter what happens, we are nearing the coming of the Lord. I agree that we must stay ready and keep watching. Agape

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