Pro and Con 619

Posted 10-24-00

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Re: Peace & Safety
I hope all is well with you and your loved ones. Please answer the following question. With all the recent violence, and the possible declaration of war by the Arabian peoples, due to the escalation of violence in the middle east, is this the possible time frame of,"when they say peace and safety then shall come sudden destruction" if a peace treaty is realized in the near future? As always, best wishes.

My reply

We are hurting financially, but ok healthwise, except Ed needs dental work. So far, we haven't taken our granddaughter's cold. We take colloidal silver and vit. C.

I don't think this is the time of the "sudden destruction." We are still here, and that can't happen while we are here. Not only the Bride saints, but even the Tribulation saints won't be here. Both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Rapture groups will have been caught up to Heaven. None of the saints will have to go through the time of God's Wrath on Earth. Psa. 91:8 says, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked." We can view the catastrophe from Heaven, much as we saw Jupiter get hit by the comet pieces. That was a warning of what can happen to Earth.

This sudden destruction is when the 2 asteroid pieces impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10) on the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14). It will be so severe that there will be a worldwide earthquake. Every wall shall fall (Eze. 38:20). The cities of the nations will fall (Rev. 16:19). Babylon will be no more (Rev. 18:21). The bottomless pit will be opened, and demons will come out of the escaping smoke to torment men 5 months (Rev. 9). Christ will not return to set his feet on the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:4) until 7 months after the catastrophe (Eze. 39:13,14) on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

What we are seeing now are the preliminaries leading up to the confirmation of the covenant of Dan. 9:27. It seems that Israel and the PLO will finally sign a 7-year peace agreement. Then, to kick off the Tribulation, the Beast (Tribulation Pope) and the False Prophet (a Jew, probably from the tribe of Dan) will "confirm" the agreement. The 10 subordinate kings over the 10 regions of the world will also be crowned at that time (Rev. 13:1).

Dan. 9:27 says, "he (the False Prophet) shall confirm the covenant with many (probably the leaders of United Religions and One World Government) for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (II Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (end of the 7 years), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (desolator, i.e., the False Prophet).

When that agreement is confirmed, Rev. 6:2 will be fulfilled. I think that man is the Tribulation Pope. He rides forth on a white horse to show that he is a prince of peace. He has a bow (toxon, simple fabric) to show that he is a man of the cloth, a religious leader.

We see this type of fabric used in The Ribbons held aloft by Cepheus the king that represents Christ in the Gospel in the Stars to show that he is a religious leader.

At the time of the Rapture, "they that are with him (Christ) are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14). At that time, the "ten kings" have "received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (the Tribulation Pope, Rev. 13:2-10). Agape

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Fwd: Was Yeshua born around this time of year?
by James Trimm (
There is evidence that Messiah was born at Sukkot (Booths/ Tabernacles) in 4 B.C.E.

The key to calculating the date of the birth of Messiah is Luke 1:5 where we learn that Zechariah the father of Yochanan was a priest of the course of Abijah.

The priests became to numerous to all serve at the Temple all the time, so they were divided into 24 courses (1Chron. 24). Each course served for two weeks each year, once in the former rain (first half of the year) and once in the latter rain (second half of the year). There were also three weeks in which all the priests were required to serve, these were the three pilgrimage festivals (Dt. 16:16). 24 times 2 is 48 plus three is 51. 51 weeks is 357 days fitting nicely within the 360-day lunar year.

The course of Abijah is the eighth course (1Chron. 24:10) which serves the tenth week during the former rain portion of the year (this is because during Passover and Shavuot (Pentecost) all of the priests serve together Dt. 16:16). Zechariah had his vision while serving in the course of Abijah in the tenth week (It will become apparent that he was serving his first course...Thus Zechariah's vision took place during the 10th week of the year (The religious year beginning at Nisan/Abib around 14 days before Passover). We must add two additional weeks before Yochanan (John) could be conceived, due to the purity laws (Lev. 12:5; 15:19, 25). So Yochanan was conceived in the 12th week of the year. He was born about 40 weeks later during the 52nd week of the year (12 + 40 = 52) which brings us to Passover. Thus Yochanan was born at Passover, the very time that Elijah was, according to Jewish tradition, supposed to appear.

Yeshua was conceived 6 months (about 25 weeks) after Yochanan's conception. This means Yeshua was conceived around the 37th week around Chanukah. This would mean the light of the world was conceived during the festival of lights.

Yeshua was born 40 weeks later (around week 77 that is week 25 of the following year) this brings us to the time of the fall feasts.

There are several clues that Yeshua was born at Sukkot:
1. Bethlehem was "booked solid." This would have been due to the census, which would have taken place over the period of a year. Every Jew was required to come to Jerusalem for Sukkot (Dt. 16:16) this would have over run Jerusalem as well as Bethlehem just five miles away.

2. Yeshua was born in a stable. The Hebrew word for "stable" is "sukkah" (as in Gen. 33:17) so it is likely that Yeshua was born in a Sukkah/booth.

3. If Yeshua was born on the first day of Sukkot then he would have been circumcised on the "eighth great day" a festival following Sukkot. This day was the original "Simchat Torah" (Rejoicing in the Torah) which is now held the following day in Rabbinic Judaism. Yeshua would have entered the covenant on the day of "rejoicing in the Torah."

4. When the angels appeared to the shepherds they made a statement which closely echoes the ancient Sukkot liturgy"...behold, we have come to declare to you glad tidings of great joy." (Lk. 2:10-11)

5. Sukkot is symbolic of God dwelling in a "tabernacle" (body?) with us.

Now in Mt. 2:7-8, 16 Herod kills all the children two and under. The fact that he killed such a wide range indicates that he did not know quite how long ago Messiah had been born. Yeshua's parents fled to Egypt until they heard Herod was dead. They were back in Bethlehem in time to perform Miriam's (Mary's) purification and Yeshua's dedication on the 40th day after Yeshua's birth (as required by Torah) (Luke.2:22-38. By this time Herod had to be dead or they could not have come to theTemple in Jerusalem. Herod had to have died during the 40 days between Yeshua's birth, and his dedication 40 days later. Herod is known to havedied in September of 4 B.C.E., So Yeshua had to have born in the fall (thisrules out that Zechariah could have been serving during Abijah'ssecond course of the year, since that would place Yeshua's birth in the Springand not allow for Herod's death during the 40 days after his birth inthe fall). This also tells us that the year of Yeshua's birth was 4B.C.E.

My reply

> > We must add two additional weeks before Yochanan (John) could be conceived, due to the purity laws (Lev. 12:5; 15:19, 25)

Lev. 12:3-5 says, "in the eighth day the flesh of HIS foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THREE AND THIRTY DAYS; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a MAID CHILD, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

The 2 weeks is AFTER a GIRL is born--AFTER childbirth. The writer must have been searching for a way to make Scripture fit a preconceived theory. This 2 weeks has nothing to do with conception anyway. Right here, we have a mistake of 2 weeks. This accounts for the difference between Tishri 1 and Tishri 15 without doing a lot of figuring.

However, I have figured it by actually counting the 280-day gestation period on the Jewish Calendar. It does not have to come out on Tabernacles. It can be Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, which agrees with Scripture.

Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." There are two comings and two 1st months, Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. The former rain starts Tishri 1 (the beginning of the Civil Year, the First Advent). The latter rain starts Nisan 1 (the beginning of the Regnal and Sacred Year, the Second Advent). It is the Regnal year because Jesus Christ is King of kings, the Sacred Year because he is Lord of lords.

This is in answer to the promise God made in De. 11:14. He said, " I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." Both the arrival of the former and latter rains are "HIS DUE SEASON."

Eze. 29:17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." Then verse 21 says, "In that day (1st month, 1st day) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

> > Bethlehem was "booked solid."

This would have been due to the census, which would have taken place over the period of a year. The year ended as Tishri 1 began, not Tishri 15.

> > Herod kills all the children two and under. The fact that he killed such a wide range indicates that he did not know quite how long ago Messiah had been born. Yeshua's parents fled to Egypt until they heard Herod was dead. They were back in Bethlehem in time to perform Miriam's (Mary's) purification and Yeshua's dedication on the 40th day after Yeshua's birth (as required by Torah) (Luke. 2:22-38. By this time Herod had to be dead or they could not have come to the Temple in Jerusalem.

I believe that Herod killed the male children 2 and under because Jesus was then in his 2nd year of life. The wise men visited when Jesus was in a house, not the manger. Mt. 2:8,11 says that Herod, "sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the YOUNG CHILD (paidion, toddler, not brephos, infant); and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also....when they (the wise men) were come into the HOUSE, they saw the YOUNG CHILD (paidion, toddler) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh." Mary, Joseph and Jesus had already gone to the Temple on the 40th day before they fled to Egypt. Thus Mary was spared the pain of traveling both to and from Egypt within the 1st 40 days after childbirth.

The same word was used in Mt. 18:2: "Jesus called a LITTLE CHILD (paidion, toddler) unto him, and set him in the midst of them." This child could walk. I think Jesus could too when the wise men came to see him. For one thing, it would have taken them 4 months travel time after the time of birth just to get there if they started immediately.

> > the year of Yeshua's birth was 4 B.C.E.

I believe it was Tishri 1, in BC 5. The wise men could have visited in BC 3, before Herod's death soon after the lunar eclipse of Jan. 10, BC 1. Agape

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Re: Are the 2 Witnesses here?
Thank you so much for your reply. BUT, could you have missed something in your assessment of 1Cor. 15:51-52 not being the pre-trib rapture?:

My reply

I don't think so. It is when "ALL" are in the assembly (Heb. 12:23), both church saints and Tribulation saints. ALL will then be changed, made immortal. There would be no reason to say "the last trump" if there were no first trump. When the first sounds, there is no need to say it is the first. When another blows, there is a reason to say that it is the second or last.

Here is the type. Nu. 10:2-4 says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING (i.e., the Rapture) OF THE CAMPS (i.e., at 2 Raptures). And when they shall blow with them (BOTH), ALL (as in I Cor. 15:51,52) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., elders of Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel (i.e., 12 patriarch and 12 apostles), shall gather themselves unto thee." The Bride out of every nation will all be caught up with the elders, Rev. 5:9.

The Lord is very careful how he words things. Notice that "they shall blow with THEM." Mk. 13:27 helps us understand this careful wording. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture). The 1st trumpet sounds again to gather the saints from Heaven. Then the "LAST TRUMP," not necessarily the 2nd toot heard, sounds to gather the Tribulation saints from Earth. One trumpet sounds at the 1st Rapture. Two sound at the 2nd Rapture, the last one. Agape

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FWD: Interesting Commentary on Revelations
Of particular interest is the section, The Rapture In Revelation 12:5
> > The Apocalypse Of John And The Rapture Of The Church:
A Reevaluation, by Michael J. Svigel

> > ...Of the passages above, none completely satisfy as an explicit reference to the rapture of the Church in the Book of Revelation. Some may imply a rapture/resurrection while missing the event itself (e.g. Rev 3:10). Others may relate certain similar elements on the surface but lack genuine concord upon closer examination (Rev 4:1-2; 11:11-19; 19:11—20:6). After brief examination of the positive and negative evidences, we are still left with the impression of Mounce that “the very discussion of a ‘rapture of the church’ lies outside John's frame of reference.”78 From this point in the reevaluation of the Apocalypse of John and the rapture of the Church, we move to one final place in the Revelation which has been an occasional candidate for the rapture of the Church: Revelation 12:5.

***From Marilyn: John is one of the 24 elders caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture of Rev. 4:1. I think the elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles. When the elders are caught up, a group of "saints" (Rev. 5:8) "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) are caught up too. They seem to be the wise virgins, the Bride of Christ, the Philadelphians before whom the Lord has set the "open door" (Rev. 3:8). They are present in Heaven before the first seal is broken to kick off the Tribulation in Rev. 6.

***Let's look at the scriptures that show this. In Rev. 3:8-11, Jesus tells the Philadelphians, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee AN OPEN DOOR, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name....I have loved thee. BECAUSE thou hast kept the word of my patience, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly (at the Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

***Rev. 4:1,2 shows what happens when this DOOR is OPEN. It says, "behold, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: and the first voice (Christ's, Rev. 1:10,11) which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET (the FIRST 'TRUMP OF GOD' of II Thess. 4:16) talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER (the Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER (i.e., the Tribulation is after the Rapture). And IMMEDIATELY I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

***Since the OPEN DOOR is set before the Philadelphians, it is the Philadelphians who go through the OPEN DOOR in Rev. 4:1. They were not told to repent for they already had. They are the wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies). John is one of the 24 elders who are caught up. Others are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the other 11 apostles. Besides these 24 Israelites, there are in Heaven wise-Philadelphian-virgin saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). This group sees the Lamb of God given the Title Deed of the Earth sealed with 7 seals. Therefore, they are in Heaven before the Tribulation begins. At this point, they have already been made "kings and priests." Rev. 5:10 says, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth."

***Rev. 11:12 only has to do with the 2 witnesses, the "man child" of Rev. 12:5. They are caught up 3.5 days after Mid-Trib.

***The 2nd Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, takes place in Rev. 7. They are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (v. 9). Verse 14 says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." These are caught up between the breaking of the 6th seal in Rev. 6:12 and the 7th seal in Rev. 8.

***In Rev. 11:18, those of both Raptures, both the "small and great," are present in Heaven to receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

***Rev. 19:11—20:6 is not about either Rapture. In 19:11-13, the Second Advent is in view. In v. 14, we see that all the saints gathered up in both Rapture will return from Heaven with the Lord. Rev. 19:17f to 20:6 describe events that follow the Second Advent.

> > The Rapture In Revelation 12:5
> > ...This section will examine one final placement of the rapture in the Book of Revelation, one that has been either over-looked by commentators in spite of its merits79 or rejected for what I hope to demonstrate are weak objections. In this section I will show that a formidable argument from genre, context, and lexical analysis can be presented for identifying the rapture of the Church with the catching up of the male child of Revelation 12:5....

***I think the "man child" represents the 2 witnesses that are caught up Mid-Trib. Since the time is Mid-Trib, when Satan is cast down from Heaven (Rev. 12:7-9), it can't be Christ, the Bride caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture, or the rest of the Body of Christ caught up later in the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath. Overcomers are told that they "shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Rev. 2:27). They will rule "with a rod of iron" as kings with Christ, the King of kings, who "shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Rev. 19:15).

> > The Symbols Of Revelation 12
There are primarily three symbolic personages in Revelation 12:1-6—the woman, the dragon, and the male child....

> > The woman. The first sign is the woman, introduced in Revelation 1:1. She is described as “clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars” (12:1). Such is her appearance. Her condition is as follows: “She was pregnant and was screaming in labor pains, struggling to give birth” (12:2).

> > Some have identified this woman as the Church of both the Old and New Testaments.89 Others, especially dispensationalists who assert a strong distinction between Israel of the Old Testament and the Church of the New, see the woman as representing national Israel alone.90 Still others lean towards the Israel view, but with a caveat: the woman is “ideal” Israel.91

> > ...this woman represents Israel. The sun, moon, and stars correspond to the symbols in Joseph’s dream of Genesis 37:9, where they represented the patriarch, matriarch, and the sons of Jacob, the father, mother, and twelve tribes of the nation of Israel respectively....

***I agree that the woman represents Israel.

> > The Dragon. Later, in Revelation 12:9 the dragon is called “the ancient serpent, the one called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world.” Although the dragon is identified as “Satan,” he is much more than merely an individual. The symbolism of the seven heads and ten horns is not intended to identify him as the beast of Revelation 13, but as the nations throughout history who were opposed to God’s people. In fact, the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon in Revelation (and the beast in Revelation 13) are likely meant to correspond with the seven heads and ten horns of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-8.99 Thus, the dragon symbolizes both the world system as the great inimicus of God's people throughout history and the secret ruler of that world system, Satan himself.

***I think the 7 heads of the great red dragon represent the 5 empires that have fallen (Rev. 17:10) (1) Babel I, (2) Babylon II, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Roman Empire, plus the one that "is" at the time of the Rapture: (6) Ecclesiastical Rome, and the "other" that "is not yet come" at the time of the Rapture: (7) Babylon III. I think the one that "is" at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture is headed up by the Tribulation Pope. The one that "is not yet come" at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture is Babylon, headed up by the Satan-possessed False Prophet. He comes to full power Mid-Trib.

> > The Male Child. The crux of the argument of this paper lies with the identification of the male child born to the woman, Israel. The following section will examine this identification in greater depth. In preview, it will be argued that the male child born to the woman has, like the dragon, and possibly the woman, a double referent, one an individual, Jesus Christ, the other a corporate body, the Church. Five main arguments for this identification will be given: 1) the consistency in symbolism in Revelation 12; 2) the significance of the allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8; 3) the lexical issues involving the snatching up of the male child; 4) the identification of the male child as the one who will “rule over all the nations with an iron rod;” and 5) the absence of the death and resurrection of the Messiah argues for the identification of the male child with the Church....

> > This notion of “snatching away” does not fit at all the descriptions of the ascension of Jesus to the Father.108

> > 2. For the ascension of Christ, the New Testament authors use terms such as ejpaivrw “to be lifted up” (Acts 1:9), ajnabaivnw “to ascend” (John 20:17; Eph 4:8-10), and ajnalambavnw “to received up” (Mark 16:19; Luke 1:11). These are more neutral terms of spatial relocation in an upward direction. Some of these terms are used with Jesus as the actor (John 20:17; Eph 4:8-10), not simply a passive object of the action. Jesus was actively involved in his own ascension, which is portrayed as a gradual upward action.109

> > John was well aware of these ascension terms. Besides using the word ajnabaivnw for the ascension of Christ in John 20:17, John also uses the exact word some twelve times in the Book of Revelation itself. Especially noteworthy is that John used ajnabaivnw just twelve verses earlier in describing the ascension of the two resurrected witnesses to heaven (Rev 11:12). With the ascension vocabulary fresh in his mind, John used instead aJrpavzw in Revelation 12:5. If the removal of the male child to heaven represents the ascension of Christ, it must be asked why John did not use the ascension term, especially since it would have made the most sense and identified most clearly that the male child was, in fact, Jesus Christ....

> > Revelation 12:1-4 sets up a rather intense situation in which the dragon lies with “open jaws,” waiting to devour the male child as soon as it is born. The vision clearly portrays imminent danger towards the male child from an intended attack by the dragon. Thus, the term aJrpavzw here seems to be used in a rescue context, a context which is appropriate for the term. (Acts 23:10; Jude 23). Such a rescue nuance is utterly incompatible with the New Testament portrayal of the ascension of Christ. Jesus Christ was not snatched away to God to escape any threat, either real or imagined, either from Satan or from any other.111 Ladd emphasizes this problem when he writes, “This can hardly be an allusion to the ascension of Christ, for his rapture did not have the purpose of escaping Satan's hostility. On the contrary, as the crucified and resurrected Christ he had already won his triumph over satanic power (Heb. 2:14; Col. 2:15).”112...

> > Identifying the male child as the body of Christ best harmonizes with the quotation of Psalm 2:9 found at the beginning, middle, and end of Revelation.113 J. Dwight Pentecost argues that the quotation of Psalm 2:9 offers undeniable proof that the male child is Jesus Christ. He writes: “Since this child is born ‘to rule all nations with a rod of iron’ (Rev. 12:5), it can only refer to Christ, the one whose right it is to rule. The Psalmist confirms this interpretations in Psalm 2:9, which is admittedly Messianic.”114 Such a bold statement requires a substantial response.

> > It is my assertion that the quotation of Psalm 2:9 actually strengthens the identification of the male child as the body of Christ rather than Jesus Christ alone. This is demonstrated by an examination of the other two occurrences of the quotation of Psalm 2:9 in the Book of Revelation.

> > Psalm 2:9 is first quoted in Revelation 2:26-28, where the promise of the psalm is extended by Jesus Christ to believers. Jesus says:

> > And to the one who conquers and who continues in my deeds until the end, I will give him authority over the nations: He will rule them with an iron rod and like clay jars he will break them to pieces, just as I have received the right to rule from my Father, and I will give him the morning star. (NET)

> > At the return of Christ to earth recorded in Revelation 19:14-15, the passage is quoted once again, this time applied to Christ:

> > The armies that are in heaven, dressed in white, clean, fine linen, were following him on white horses. From his mouth extends a sharp sword, so that with it he can strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod, and he stomps the winepress of the furious wrath of God the All-Powerful. (NET)

> > This dual application of the promise of Psalm 2:9 harmonizes perfectly with the identification of the male child with the body of Christ, for such an interpretation does not deny that something of Christ is in view, but contends that it is Christ in union with his spiritual body, the Church, that is being symbolized.115 This may place the catching up of the male child in the midst of a great inclusio (Rev 2:26-27; Rev 19:15), from which it could be argued that the event of Revelation 12:5 is at least a significant, if not central passage in the structure of the book....

> > Conclusion. In examining the arguments set forth by various commentators and scholars which oppose the view that the male child represents the body of Christ, the present writer has found the following: 1) there is no good reason to reject the view that the male child represents the Church; 2) the identification of the male child as Jesus Christ alone does not account for all of the evidence; and 3) the identification of the male child as the Church incorporates all of the evidence. Therefore, it seems to the present writer that the best explanation for the identification of the male child in Revelation 12:5 is the body of Christ, the Church.

***The writer fails to explain Rev. 2:26-29. It says, "he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him (that overcometh) will I give power over the nations: And he (that overcometh) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Christ) received of my Father. And I (Christ) will give him (that overcometh) the morning star (Heaven seems to be a morning star at the time of the Rapture, the overcomers already have Christ, who has his throne on this morning star). He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

***The overcomers seem to all be poured into the Philadelphian group before whom the "open door" is set. All these that are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture are kings and priests who rule with Christ when he, and they, rule Earth with a rod of iron during the Millennium.

> > Implications And Conclusion
> > The Apocalypse Of John And The Rapture Of The Church
> > If the male child represents not simply the individual, Jesus Christ, but the unio mystica, the believers of every generation of the Church who are ejn Cristw'/, then Revelation 12:5 is the only explicit mention of the rapture of the Church in the Book of Revelation. While other passages may, in fact, imply a rapture (i.e. Rev 3:10) the event itself is not described. Revelation 12:5, which stands at the heart of the Apocalypse and which brings together the two allusions to Psalm 2:9 found at the extremes of the Book, seems an appropriate place for the rapture of the Church in a book that was written to “show his servants what must happen very soon.”

***I disagree. The Rapture is plain in Rev. 4:1 to those with eyes to see. Not only John, but the other 23 elders and the group of saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) appear in Heaven right after John is caught up.

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