Pro and Con 628

Posted 11-5-00

Re: Saturn's new moons. The 4 new moons of Saturn are in the 10 to 50 kilometer range. Their irregular orbits far from Saturn suggest that they are are captured asteroids.

Incoming email

Re: Add 40 days to November 15th
Just a thought. Add 40 days to November 15th (Chechvan 17, Genesis 7:11) for the 40 days it took to rain on Noah's ark and lift it completely above all the Earth. Add 40 days to when Jesus was crucified for His body to be lifted above the Earth. We arrive at December 25th, Christmas. But since I am one to think that God gives us many hints and Jewish days start at sundown and the Bride of Christ is the new Eve, this brings us to Christmas Eve, 2000.

What gives me greater pause is that Jesus fulfilled Jewish Holidays (Holy Days) when He came first to the Jews, (Romans 2:10). Would he not fulfill a Christian Holiday (Holy Day) when He came second for His Gentile Bride?

However there are so many things I realize I haven't figured out. Like Jesus redeemed our souls at Calvary, but our bodies, the Bride Redemption, not redeemed till the snatching away the Bride and the resurrection of the Dead? Or is the Bride of Christ redeemed sometime before the snatching away? And is the marriage seven years later on Tishri 21 to fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles? Shalom

My reply

Christmas is not the correct day to celebrate the birth of Yeshua/Jesus. I think it should be Tishri 1, the Jewish New Year (Sept. 30 in 2000). Dec. 25 was celebrated as the birthday of Tammuz (the Sun god) in the Mystery Religion of Babylon. That day came to be celebrated as the birth of the Son of God, but it is the wrong day, and I don't think the Lord would pick Christmas Eve to come for the Bride of Christ. I think Eve was taken out of Adam's side on Elul 29, just before this "kosmos" began to operate as it does now on Tishri 1, the day that God rested. Therefore, the Eve of Trumpets would make more sense to me than the Eve of Christmas.

I think the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ are on Tishri 1, the beginning of the Jewish Civil Year, and Nisan 1, the beginning of their Regnal Year and Sacred Year. Christ the Lord was to come as the rain to Israel. In De. 11:14, the Lord promised, saying, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts Tishri 1. The latter rain starts Nisan 1.

Joel 2:23 says, "rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." In the Bible, when a month is mentioned without a day number, it is the first day of the month, because the same word means both new moon and month. They start the month on the new moon. Therefore, we can see that the 2 comings of Christ are on Tishri 1 and Nisan 1.

Ezekiel used the Sacred Calendar. We can tell because Eze. 45:18 says, "In the first month, in the first day of the month." Then verse 21 mentions Passover "in the fourteenth day of the month."

In Eze. 29:17 Ezekiel mentions "the first month, in the first day of the month" (Nisan 1). Then v. 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Since Christ was to come as the former and latter rain, and he is to return as king on Nisan 1, I think his first coming would have been on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets.

> > Jesus redeemed our souls at Calvary, but our bodies, the Bride Redemption, not redeemed till the snatching away the Bride and the resurrection of the Dead? Or is the Bride of Christ redeemed sometime before the snatching away?

I think you understand most of this, but I'd like to clarify the whole picture. Our being redeemed is when we are saved. We must be saved before the snatching away. Otherwise, we would not be part of the Bride. Christ became our Redeemer at Calvary, but our souls are actually saved when we accept Christ as our own personal Saviour. Rom. 10:9,10 says: "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

At the Rapture, the dead in Christ will receive their resurrection bodies and "rise first." Then we will "be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16,17), presumably in the same type of bodies. Since the resurrection body "is raised in incorruption" (I Cor. 15:42), our bodies would also be made incorruptible at that point.

> > is the marriage seven years later on Tishri 21 to fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles?

That is close, but not exact. The 7 years are to be shortened a bit, and I think that the Marriage of the Lamb will take place on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, Jesus' birthday. I'll try to explain.

There are 2 Raptures, one Pre-Trib, the other Pre-Wrath. The Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14) comes just before the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth (Rev. 8) at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I think that will be on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1) that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. On that day, all the saints are called to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." Mk. 13:27 shows that they will see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky, as in Mt. 24:30, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (to gather those taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

The millennial Day of the Lord will start on the Feast of Trumpets. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." We can tell from Joel 2:1-3 that it is the Feast of Trumpets. It also is the Day of God's Wrath. Joel 1:15 says, "the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty (Christ, Rev. 1:8) shall it come."

I think the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are all on Jesus' birthday, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the same day that all the saints are called to the general assembly in Heaven. That day should be at least 2300 days after the 1st Rapture, because the Tribulation is actually shortened to 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) for the sake of the elect. I do think there is a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation, so that gap would add some days to the 2300-day total.

Song of Sol. 3:11 says, "GO FORTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), O ye daughters of Zion (the 144,000 of Rev. 7), and behold king Solomon (type of Christ, the Son of David) with the CROWN wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals (chathunnah, WEDDING), and in the day of the gladness of his heart." Agape

Incoming email

...I was struck by the signs in the heavens and I can't get over Psalm 100. Will send it to you. May God Bless You and Yours

My reply

Thanks. I read JR Church's book about secrets in the Psalms, and read what you sent too. I just can't see it. We sing a new song after the Rapture (Rev. 5:9). That appears in Psa. 33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 98:1and 104:9. The Rapture can't be in all of those years, and time has shown that all but 2004 have already passed without it taking place.

Psa. 100 does sound the most likely, but we may still have to wait until next spring. Shalom and Agape

Incoming email plus my interspersed comments

From: Gavin Finley
Sorry for the delay in responding. Marilyn, I am no Bible scholar but have been told that the KJV is incorrect in the Rev. 5:8-10 passage. The 1611 King James scholars did not have access to the original manuscripts and had to use the Catholic Latin Vulgate for Revelation. Accordingly I use the NASB for Revelation and the KJV for most other studies. The correct rendition is "Thou has made THEM to be a kingdom and priests and THEY shall reign upon the earth" Rev.5:10. This shows the priestly role of the 24 elders before the throne of God on behalf of the redeemed saints on earth below coming into God's divine purposes.

***From Marilyn: Green's Interlinear has "...the SAINTS. And THEY (refers back to the saints) sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, because You were slain and have purchased US to God by Your blood, OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION." Psa. 149:5 (KJV) agrees. It says, "Let the SAINTS be joyful in glory: let THEM sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in THEIR mouth, and a twoedged sword in THEIR hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: THIS HONOUR HAVE ALL HIS SAINTS."

***Evidently, all 24 elders are Israelites. John is one (II Jn. 1:1). Peter is another (I Peter 5:1). In Mt. 19:28, "Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." The other 12 seem to be the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel, the patriarchs. The elders are of ONE NATION. Yet, the SAINTS, whose Representatives in the Government of God are the 24 elders, are out of ALL NATIONS. There are more than 24 nations on Earth. Both Peter and John are of the group participating in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Marilyn, here is a reply I made to a brother on a discussion board on the subject of the 24 elders. He too sees the church in heaven in this scene.

24 elders yes. But is the church in Rev. 4 & 5?

The 24 elders has a strong case for being the church! they wear crowns they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb!

In Rev. ch. 4 and 5, Larry, I see that the 24 elders are in a priestly ministry before the throne of God on behalf of the saints on earth below. That much is clear from the text. They bring the prayers of the saints before the Lamb it is true and worship God for His marvellous works in redeeming the saints on earth below. But I do not see any evidence that the 24 elders are indeed the saints or that they are the church in heaven with John. John sees this eternal historic judgment made at the throne of God and views events at the throne of God as they relate to the saints on earth below.

***These saints are in Heaven with John and Peter. If Peter is part of the 1st Rapture, so are we. These saints see Christ take the "book," the Title Deed to the Earth that is sealed with 7 seals. So will we. They are there singing praises to Him BEFORE the 1st seal on that "book" is opened in Rev. 6. So will we.

The fact that they are 24 elers in number suggests a connection to the 12 tribes of Israel and a connection to the 12 apostles of the church. We see this mentioned in Relation 21 to the 12 gates into the New Jerusalem which is the Bride of the Lamb/Bride of Christ. The scripture below outlines what the 24 elders do at the throne of God. The scene John is transported to is the heavenly throne/court of God. The event is in the eternities of eternities. It is not linked to any specific 70th week time spot on earth.

John is caught up intothe heavenly realms and witnesses an eternal truth, an eternal event, as the Lamb receives the scroll. The scroll is the title deed to the cosmos. He receives it amidst great rejoicing from the four living creatures and the 24 elders up there in heaven.

***Since the "book" has the 7 seals that bring on the Tribulation, Christ has to receive it before the Tribulation starts, and the saints out of all nations are there in Heaven to see Him take the "book." Therefore, the saints are in Heaven before the Tribulation begins.

The court scene in the heavenly realm is not a chronological event happening in earthly time at the beginning of the 70th week. Rather it is an eternal event. This throne scene explains why Christ has the right to break the seals of the 7 dominions of holy history on this earth and to establish His kingdom. It could have been put elwhere in the book of Revelation and not disturbed matters.

***It has to be BEFORE the 1st seal is broken. That happens in Rev. 6.

It just gives the legal reason why the endtime events are able to roll on into the Kingdom of God. God is no tyrant. He bought and paid for this great salvation and the redemption of the cosmos with His own precious blood. Certain dominions must unfold and be witnessed to in holy history before He returns. The 5th seal sacrificial witness of the saints is one of those steps. Only the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth has the right to break these 7 seals and to usher in the trumpets announcing the coming of God's Kingdom to the cosmos and earth.

See if you see the church in heaven in the verses below. Larry, I have looked. I see that their prayers are there in heaven. I also see God's pronouncement of the redemption of the saints and His intent to give them rule. But I do not see the church in heaven at this eternal event. The book of revelation is not always a chronological sequence. It is also a series of pictures of eternal events and as they culminate in the return of Christ to this earth. See if you see the church in the verses below. I don't believe you will. Blessings, Gavin

***The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when we see him revealed at the Rapture. The Rapture is "at hand" in the 1st and last chapters (1:3 and 22:10).

***Everything in Revelation past the Pre-Trib Rapture in 4:1 is "hereafter" the Rapture, except the sign-off at the end of the book. The book is well organized. There are 7 seals. Out of the 7th seal comes the 7 trumpet judgments. Out of the 7th trumpet judgment comes the 7 vials that fill up the wrath of God. Between the 6th and 7th seals, the 6th and 7th trumpets and the 6th and 7th vials are parenthetic portions, just as the Tribulation is a parenthetic portion between the end of the 6th millennium and the beginning of the 7th millennium. In all parenthetic portions, we have to look for match marks to see exactly where they fit in the Tribulation. The clues are there, if we look closely.

***For instance, the setting of Rev. 17 is just after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. In v. 15, "they that ARE with him ARE called, and chosen, and faithful." At that time, the "ten kings...have received NO KINGDOM AS YET." We know from Rev. 13 that when the 1st 1260 days of the Tribulation begin, all ten kings are wearing crowns.

***Knowing the setting gives us new insight into the 7 kingdoms. The Mystery Religion was set up at the Tower of Babel. Therefore, the 5 kingdoms that have fallen are Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire. The king that "IS" is the Tribulation Pope, head of Ecclesiastic Rome. The Tribulation Pope is the 6th head of the Great Red Dragon. The 7th head that "is not yet come" is the False Prophet, who will rule the last half of the Tribulation. We can also see from v. 18 that, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Mystery Religion is still headquartered at Vatican City. It is later moved to Babylon, as in Rev. 18.

Revelation 5 NASB: 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns andseven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

***"they" refers back to "the saints." They are out of ALL NATIONS. The elders are only out of ONE NATION, Israel.

10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.''...

***These saints are ALL to reign over the earth. II Tim. 2:12 says, "If we suffer, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he also will deny us." Rev. 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is HE that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY (the saints of the first resurrection) shall be PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM a thousand years." Agape

Incoming email

Fw: Shroud of Turin lecture
This was sent to me by a friend who attended the lecture. I thought you might like to read the info. Veeeeeryyy Inteeeresting. ---
Last week I had the opportunity to attend a lecture on the Shroud of Turin at the University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma in Chickasha, Oklahoma. It was delivered by a guy named Barry Schwortz, an internationally-renowned expert on the Shroud ( who was a member of the team that was allowed to study the famous artifact for five days and nights in 1978. Mr. Schwortz is a Jewish non-believer (in the Divinity of Jesus).

At the conclusion of the presentation I approached Mr. Schwortz and asked him this question, "Are you convinced that the linen cloth known as the Shroud of Turin was used to wrap a man from the 1st century who had been crucified?"

He replied, "No, I can be more specific... I am totally convinced that the Shroud of Turin was used to wrap the man known as Jesus."

Shocked by his reply and coupled with his earlier statement that he was NOT a believer, I asked him how he could believe in the authenticity of the Shroud and NOT believe in the Divinity of Jesus? He replied that he believed that he had been honored by God to participate in the 1978 study and that God had sent him as an objective messenger to present what he had learned to people like me. He went on to state that belief in the Deity of Christ originates in your heart and not in your mind and that he had not had the knowledge move from his head to his heart.

He's right of course about heart v. mind... please pray for a "heart" experience for Barry Schwortz... he's a deserving candidate for Christendom if anyone is!... thought you'd like to know.

My reply

Thanks. How interesting. Wonder what it would take when one is that obstinate, seeing Christ in the sky? Agape

Incoming email

Re: Please read this if you have time
...It may prove worth reading. As always best wishes.

My reply

Thanks. I read that piece. Here is what I copied: "It is one thing to allude to vague conspiracies, but quite another to name names and point to specific actions that may have dire consequences for humanity in the very near future. Even if we are flatly wrong and absolutely nothing happens in November 1998 or June 1999, we must face the fact that comets are still coming. We have the knowledge, technology and incentive to act to save our planet. We have just lacked the will, the vision to face our fears."

Nothing did happen on those dates, so I don't think they had it all figured out. However, we have Rev. 8:8,10 showing us that "a great mountain burning with fire" will be cast into the sea (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5) and "a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" will impact Earth and destroy Babylon. This is the sure word of God's prophecy. I think that both will impact Earth at noon on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), destroying civilization as we know it. When God says it, we can know that no matter what man does to try to head it off, it will strike Earth.

Our only hope is to be caught up in either the Pre-Trib Rapture or the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The 1st is the better choice. It looks like that Rapture is the prize we are running the race to win. It is for the Bride of Christ, the wise virgins of Mt. 25:1f. Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The destruction of that day will be so bad that it will be necessary for the Lord to again refresh the Earth so it will be a fit habitat for man during the Millennium. Isa. 30:26 says, "Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and HEALETH THE STROKE OF THEIR WOUND."

He will renew the atmospheric heavens and the face of the Earth. II Peter 3:10-13 says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new (lit., refreshed) heavens and a new (refreshed) earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." Agape

Incoming email

Re: Goliath was Palestinian!
Just found this very interesting:

Philistines, highly civilized inhabitants of the coastal region of Palestine. They lived, from some time in the 12th century BC, on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, to the southwest of Judea (a part of what is now the West Bank), from Ekron toward Egypt. According to the Old Testament (see Amos 9:7; Jeremiah 47:4; Deuteronomy 2:23), they came from Caphtor, which may probably be identified with Crete (Kríti). A Pelasgian origin was also suggested, but modern scholars believe that the Philistines, undoubtedly immigrants, came from Crete.

It is not known whether Abimelech, king of Gerar (see Genesis 20-21, 26), was king of these people or merely of the country that later became Philistia. More probably, the Philistine skirmishes with the Danites mark their first appearance as aggressive enemies; the migration of the Danites (see Judges 18) about the 11th century BC is credited to Philistine pressure on their earlier home territory toward the south. They had five princes, who ruled over the five cities of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashqelon, Gath, and Ekron. Under the last of the judges of ancient Israel, Samuel, their rule was terminated by the Battle of Mizpah. At Mount Gilboa', Saul, the first king of ancient Israel, and his sons fell in battle against them. David, king of Judah and Israel, routed them repeatedly, and under Solomon, David's son and successor, their country seems to have been incorporated in the Jewish Empire.

The internal troubles of Judah emboldened them once more to resistance, but Hezekiah, a later king of Judah, subdued them in the 8th century BC with the aid of the Egyptians. The Assyrians afterward took Ashdod, and in the time of the Maccabees (2nd and 1st century BC) the Philistines were Syrian subjects; thereafter the name of the country became lost in that of Palestine. ---
If the Philistines are Palestinians then perhaps this current conflict mimics the David and Goliath story. Goliath tormented the Israelites for 40 days then David slew him.

Sept. 28 began this current torment of Israel and 40 days later puts us at November day. Perhaps on November 7 Israel will act as David and finish off the Palestinians or maybe God will.

Anyway, just an idea. Thought it interesting that Goliath (a form of Palestinian) tormented Israel for 40 days before DAvid got him. Any significance? Have a good day. Because of Him

P.S. How ironic that Goliath the Palestinian was killed with a thrown rock and now the current Palestinians are using the same weapon (throwing rocks) but it will not give them victory. :)

My reply

> > If the Philistines are Palestinians then perhaps this current conflict mimics the David and Goliath story. Goliath tormented the Israelites for 40 days then David slew him.

The Palestinians are probably a mixed group. Some may be Philistines. Others may be Ishmaelites. They call themselves Arabs, and Ishmael's mother was an Egyptian.

I think the David and Goliath incident was a type of Christ winning over another hybrid creature, the Satan-possessed False Prophet, with a stone. I believe the Sign of the End of the Age was when Israel grew leaves in the Six-Day War of 1967. Forty years from 1967 is 2007, when 2 pieces of what seems to be a binary asteroid will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). At this time, the False Prophet will be wounded and deposed from office.

Evidently, the asteroid will break apart at the Roche Limit, about 11,000 miles out. The smaller piece is still as big as a mountain. It impacts the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5) to stop Gog's army that is attacking Israel. The larger "aster" will destroy Babylon on the Euphrates River. A hail of approx. 100 lb. rocks will fall. They are probably dislodged by the breakup at the Roche Limit.

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (an asteroid)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I WILL DRIVE THEE FROM THY STATION, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

Jer. 49:17 says, "Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof." Egypt will be hurt so badly that no one will live there for the next 40 years. Eze. 29:10-12 says, "I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries." Isa. 17:1 says, "Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap."

> > now the current Palestinians are using the same weapon (throwing rocks) but it will not give them victory

No. God's weapon packs the greatest wallop. The impact explosion will probably far surpass the explosion that would result if every nuclear bomb the world has ever made was set off at once. The globe will be turned upside down. Isa. 24:1 says, "the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." The men left will be so few that a child could write the number. I thank the Lord for giving us a chance to get out of here ahead of time. Agape

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Updated 11-5-00