Pro and Con 63, Uploaded 2-12-98
The last response in Pro and Con 62 was awesome! (Note: about the struggle with faith and praying) Pro and Con 62
Your advice to whomever was certainly a blessing and witness of the Spirit working. A guidepost to all and a much needed reminder for me. On my behalf, thank you!
My reply Thank you very much. I couldn't do anything without the Lord's help. He says that without him we can do nothing, and it's the truth. I went through my early years believing but not really pouring out my heart to the Lord for help. My prayers were on the order of the Lord's prayer, thanks for food, etc., not very personal. What a difference it made when I turned my life over to the Lord 100%, started asking him what he wanted me to do, asked for understanding of his word and just talked to him with the realization that he hears because he dwells in us. It changed my life.
Incoming Email The Lords Prayer my whole life as always bothered me. I couldn't understand why our Lord would "lead us into temptation," and it went against other scripture. Then in my study a couple of years back, my bible (NRSV) at the bottom of the page has corrections that have been made. For the Lords Prayer, the original Greek is "and bring us not into the time of trail, but rescue us from the evil one." It's as if the whole bible points to the end of the age, and how to get out of it. By the way, I just bought your book "The end of the age" and began reading it last night. I got to the part about The Lords Prayer, and it reminded me of this. If this isn't correct, please let me know.
My reply Bless you. I had missed this note. I made a note of it in the back of my KJV. Thank you so much.
Mt. 6:13 (KJV) says, "And lead us not into temptation (peirasmon, trial), but deliver us from evil."
This ties in directly with Rev. 3:10, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth."
No wonder we are told to "Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36).
Incoming Email I have read some and skimmed some of your pages. Interesting, but I'm not sure about it. I see a question about dinosaurs and someone asks if they were before and died before Adam. You answered yes. Now I am sorry, but I cannot strongly believe anything you say on this site, although much of it is very interesting. Dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible, after Adam. Dinosaurs are mentioned throughout history. And dinosaurs are still alive today, although very few....
I know that you know the Bible much better than me, and i know that your main area of interest probably isn't creationism, and i believe you have some great ideas on the rapture, but when i read something, if i disagree with part of it, it's hard for me to believe another. I'm sorry if I'm sounding too negative. I know this is just a minor point and not directly related to much else. I think it's wonderful what you have here on your site. Even if it ends up incorrect, it is another model to place with other models.
My reply What difference would it make if a few dinosaurs survived the catastrophe? Most were wiped out. If "behemoth" is a dinosaur, "he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him" (Job. 40:19). The Sword of the Lord in the OLD TESTAMENT IS AN ASTEROID. (I did not make that capitalized. Neither the shift key nor the caps lock key is down.) It is the same as the "flaming sword" of Gen. 3:24 and the "great mountain burning with fire" of Rev. 8:8 and the "great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" of Rev. 8:10.
Although I'm no expert or scientist or anything, but as I understand it, from what I have read, dinosaur fossils are found in 2 layouts. Some are found by themself, assumed that he died naturally, or killed by another animal, etc. Their bones are broke, chewed, evidence of scavaging. But mostly dinosaurs (and many other kinds of animals) fossils are found in fossil graveyards. The bones are many different dinosaurs, with the bones mixed up. Like maybe just T-Rexes backbone and nothing else of TRex. And no bite marks. This (at least to me and many scientists) is evidence of flood destruction. I have a question. Do you believe all the layers that evolutionists attribute to millions of years of evolution, do you attribute them to the flood? If you do, then I agree with you, and this is where I would question why would you need the meteor to kill much life? But if you don't agree that all the layers were created by the flood, if you believe that they are pre-Adam, then that's a different story, and the best i could do is list some reasons why i don't believe that, biblically and scientifically.
Also, I said all the above without explaining how I explain your interpretation of the asteroid and catastrophe. I can't. I don't necessarily agree with you and I don't necessarily disagree with you. I've only in the last year or two start delving into the bible, and not as much as i would like. But I have a real hard time with breaking from the literal 6 day creation. I can't. I won't.
Also, you accredit worldwide seashells to pre-Adam. Why? Isn't that the flood?
Also, Exodus 20:11. God wrote in stone that he created the earth and heavens in 6 days. It's hard for me to go around this.
Also, I have always heard that God created a perfect earth, only until sin occured that death and deteriation of the earth started. I think I have heard scripture supporting this although i am sorry that i don't have any scripture to back it up.
As a note, I don't want you to think that I'm all centered around dinosaurs, and not God. I love the LORD and Jesus is in my life. It's just that I have a great interest of the earth long ago, and in my opinion, there are many facts that people aren't aware of.
If I'm say anything that you have answered on your site, please forgive me. You have a lot of information on that site, and I have only read some of it.
...That is a weird capital letter problem. :)
My reply > fossil graveyards...bones are many different dinosaurs, with the bones mixed up.
Try to think how this could have happened by water alone. What tore the animals apart? Now add an asteroid impact into the scenario. That could tear animals in pieces. I think that when the Moon was torn out of Earth by an asteroid impact, the planet rocked. Water roared back and forth forming layer after layer of debris, buried some animals whole, as at Dinosaur Nat'l Monument, and packed mixed animal parts in caves and crannies around the globe.
> all the layers...do you attribute them to the flood?
Partly pre-Adamic, partly the Flood of Noah's day, same with sea shells.
> Also, Exodus 20:11. God wrote in stone that he created the earth and heavens
> in 6 days. It's hard for me to go around this.
This might make it a bit easier. You misquoted. It says, "in six days the LORD made," not created. The word used is "asah," fashioned, not "bara," to create a new thing.
> I have always heard that God created a perfect earth
That is correct, and he formed it to be inhabited. After that, it became waste and desolation and had to refreshed. Isa. 45:18 says, "thus saith the LORD that created (bara, to create a new thing) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, to mould into a form, as a potter) the earth and made (asah, dressed, fashioned, prepared) it; he hath established it, he created (bara) it NOT in vain (tohu, ruin), he formed (yatsar, moulded) it to be inhabited."
Did you ever notice that ALL the plants of the world before Adam regrew? Gen. 2:5 says, EVERY plant of the field ("The field is the world" Mt. 13:38) BEFORE IT was in the earth (the roots and seeds were in the soil), and EVERY herb of the field BEFORE IT grew." We have to read Scripture very carefully.
Did you notice that Adam and Eve were to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth" (Gen. 1:28)?
It seems that the Lord moulded Earth into the form he wanted it to have by punching it as a potter punches and pummels his clay on the bench before he makes a beautiful work of art.
I think God split Satan's planet Rahab into the rubble that is now our Asteroid Belt. A piece of it hit Earth and scooped our Moon out of the Pacific Basin. Thus Gen. 1:9 says, "Let the waters under the heaven (lit. heavens) be gathered together into ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear."
Another asteroid will strike Earth as the Millennium begins. Here you can see that this also happened before this kosmos, order of things, began to operate in Adam's day. Isa. 51:9-16 says, Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ); awake, as in the ancient (the fore part) days (i.e., the kosmos before Adam), in the generations of old, Art thou not it that hath CUT RAHAB (large, borders or extent of a kingdom, proud; i.e, Satan's planet was large), and wounded (chalal, perforated, pierced through) the dragon (Satan). Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep (tehom raba)...the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundation (yacad, to set, found, settle, establish) of the earth...I am the LORD thy God, that divided (raga, tossed violently and suddenly) the sea, whose waves roared...that I may plant (nata, fix, place) the heavens, and lay the foundation (yacad, to set, settle, establish, foundations) of the earth."
> That is a weird capital letter problem. :)
Yes. But it is not a problem. Wait till you see some examples:
(1) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." (Rev. 19:7-9) (Immediately, I understood that the righteousness of saints determines which Rapture they go to Heaven in. The same week, my son David stepped out in his hall and heard the Lord speaking to him. What stuck was that to go in the Rapture, we must be "perfect." Therefore, we must confess all our sins and be wearing the white wedding garment if we want to be part of the Bride of Christ.)
(2) my friend...had sent me a letter saying that in August, B.C. 2, there was a massing together of four of the primary planets, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, and Uranus, in the vicinity of the sun. Astronomers said that was the beginning of a new age. We are now on the horizon of a new massing of the same planets, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, and Uranus, plus Saturn and the moon. All will be in the vicinity of the sun--a rare event! All the seven heavenly bodies will be coming together in a massing of the planets. It will occur May 5, 2000. Is this the sign Jesus speaks about in Luke 21:25,26? As I typed my answer, I said, "I don't know right off if the massing of the planets on May 5, 2000 is the sign Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:25,26, but it will be Friday, Nisan 30, 5760 on the Jewish Calendar. Since I grabbed a Bible at random and have the Lamsa Bible on my desk, I'll just quote what it says and see if I can get any idea on this. I'll start with the last of verse 24 and quote through 28:"
"Jerusalem will be trodden under the feet of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles comes to an end. AND THERE WILL BE SIGNS IN SUN AND MOON AND STARS; AND ON EARTH DISTRESS OF THE NATIONS, AND CONFUSION BECAUSE OF THE ROARING OF THE SEA; And upheaval that takes life out of men, because of fear of what is to come on earth; and the powers of the universe will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with a large army and great glory. But when these things begin to happen, have courage and lift up your heads, because your salvation is at hand." (Luke 21:25,26)
(I now believe this will be a sign.)
(5) ...while we wait for ISRAEL TO BURY THE DEAD (important point, automatic capitalization happened for the fifth time)... (I left out something about the smoke from the catastrophe clearing after that. He could blow that out in an instant. It will be dark and he can say, Let there be light, and there will be light.)
(6) After Noah's Flood, the seven heads of the dragon started with the Tower of Babel, Babylon I. Nimrod was king. This is when the harlot Mystery Religion of Babylon first mounted the great red dragon. It will end with another Tower of BABEL and the False Prophet, "and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."
(7) The fourth beast in Daniel was Rome, but when we get down to the feet, it has changed. It is made up of iron and clay, Rome plus other nations. The collagen that glues the pieces of the feet together is the United NATIONS. (I was about to add and the World Church, but I left that off. The World Church comes at the beginning of the Tribulation. That is when we enter the toe section.)
(8) A friend wrote, "Which Old Testament laws are done away? The Decalogue" I do not think so." My answer: If the law was nailed to the cross and done away with, the whole thing was done away with as an issue in salvation. It is a dead issue. The law was a schoolmaster to show us what sin is and to bring us to Christ. Paul said,
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. BUT AFTER THAT FAITH IS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galations 3:24-26).
(9) When Rapture I is at hand, Jesus calls himself "the bright and morning star" in Revelation 22:16. When the Second Coming is in view, he is called "the Sun of righteousness that will arise with healing in his wings" in Malachi 4:2.
Why the difference? An obvious reason is because the Rapture happens before the Second Advent, just as the morning star is seen before sun up, but there is more to it than that. It looks like he has planned to snatch us up on Pentecost when HEAVEN IS A BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR. It is a morning star five months out of every year.
I did not intend to capitalize the above. The Lord must have. Neither the Shift key or the Caps lock key is down. This is the ninth time this has happened. It never starts in the middle of a word, and if not a single word, is always a complete phrase or thought.
(11) Can we know when this happened? We know that the first chapter in the Bible says that in the week before ADAM WAS CREATED, IT WAS DARK, THERE WAS A MIGHTY WIND, AND THE SEA HAD NOT YET RUN INTO ITS PREPARED PLACE, SO IT WAS NEAR THAT TIME. Job 26:5,6,11-13 in the New American Standard Bible gives us one more necessary fact. (I did not mean to put the above in caps. The Lord emphasized it himself. This is the eleventh time this has happened.)
(12) When Jesus said, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man," in Mark 13:32, "knoweth" was present tense. IT APPLIED TO THAT DAY AND NOT TO OUR DAYS HERE AT THE END OF THE AGE. Do you know that the Jewish month and day of the month of the Second Advent were already in the Old Testament?...
(16) No man could have packed as much information into such a small book as the Bible. Only God could do that. The scriptures are God breathed. His prophecies come true 100%. No others do. Fulfilled prophecy proves the Bible right. PLEASE ACCEPT IT AS THE GOSPEL TRUTH AND BELIEVE WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT OUR WONDERFUL LORD JESUS Christ.
(17) Yes, Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath. THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK IS SUNDAY.
(18) As for the feast of the first Rapture, I still think it is on PENTECOST.
(21) "There are many mistakes made in figuring the Jubilees. Some make it every 50 years. Some start after they came into the land when they were to keep it after they entered the land. IT WAS COUNTED FROM THE TIME THEY CAME OUT OF EGYPT."
Incoming Email I have been thinking about your book The End of the Age, and it seems that the key scripture in it is Jesus' parable of the fig tree. I'm sure you realize that your interpretation of this is not the standard one. The way I see it, Jesus was explaining a whole series of signs, things that would occur shortly before the tribulation week. Then he described some of the events in the tribulation week itself. Then he gave the parable of the fig tree as an EXAMPLE. In other words, one way of understanding this part of the Olivet discourse is that Jesus was saying these are some signs and this is what will happen after them, when you see these signs (such as earthquakes in diverse places, wars and rumors of wars, etc.) then you will know that the end is near, in the same way that when you see the fig tree putting forth leaves you know that summer is near. So the fig tree is just an example, and the signs are what he was talking about before that. Otherwise what was the point of listing all those other signs ? The problem is that things such as wars and rumors of wars are so general that no specific date can be derived from them.
Anther point, if I accept your interpretation that the putting forth leaves refers to the seven day war in a prophetic way, then Jesus says that that generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. In The End of the Age you state that when Israel wandered in the wilderness for fourty years until all the people over the age of thirty had died that a biblical generation was established as fourty years. Not so. A biblical generation is thirty years. What was demonstrated is that since the number of years in a persons life is seventy ("and your years shall be three score and ten...") and since "that generation" applied to all those that were thirty years old or older, therefore it took 70-30 = fourty years for that generation to pass away. Everyone that was thirty or over (except Caleb and Joshua) died within those thirty years. But what about today ? If we consider all the people in Israel that were thirty or older at the time of the Six day war (those born before June of 1937) can we conclude that they will all die by the year 2007 ? Normally (statistically) I would expect some of them to live up to at least one hundred years. Perhaps that generation will all die during the tribulation?
One final thought. Matthew 24:14 states that the gospel shall be preached to all the nations, and then the end shall come. Is this referring to a time before the rapture ? Will the gospel be preached to all peoples before the rapture ? That is how I have heard this interpreted, but I'm thinking perhaps it refers to the gospel being preached after the rapture, as in Revelation 14:6 ? If Matthew 24:14 is taken to mean that the gospel will be preached to all peoples before the rapture then I think we still have a way to go, that it must be years away and not months.
Thanks for providing such an excellant website and books!
> So the fig tree is just an example, and the signs are what he was talking about
> before that. Otherwise what was the point of listing all those other signs?
Isa. 28:9-13 shows that Scripture is "line upon line, here a little, and there a little; that they (those that would not hear) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." There are clues in Matthew 24 that are necessary to put together the whole prophetic picture.
> seven day war
It was the Six-Day War.
> In The End of the Age you state that when Israel wandered in
> the wilderness for fourty years until all the people over the age of
> thirty had died that a biblical generation was established as fourty
> years. Not so. A biblical generation is thirty years.
I hope I didn't say over the age of "thirty." If so, I goofed and didn't say what I meant. All the males from "twenty" and up were counted. Nu. 14:29 says, "Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have nurmured against me." Verse 33 says, "And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years...until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness."
> Matthew 24:14 states that the gospel shall be preached
> to all the nations, and then the end shall come. Is this referring to a
> time before the rapture ?...That is how I have heard this interpreted, but I'm
> thinking perhaps it refers to the gospel being preached after the rapture,
> as in Revelation 14:6 ?
There is a chance that you are right. Mt. 24:13,14 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." The gospel of the kingdom sounds like what John the Baptist preached, and what Moses and Elijah will preach during the first half of the Tribulation.
I've admired your work for a long time and enjoy your website
immensely. However, I am at a loss to understand how Luke 13:6-9 has anything
to do with indicating a three year break between the rapture and the start of
the tribulation. There's no indication of a discussion on end time events in
the scriptures around these verses so how did you arrive at this particular
interpretation? Also, Mark 13:23 "See I have told you all things beforehand is
certainly in the present tense yet obviously Jesus hadn't told His disciples
the time of the rapture at that point in time. This would suggest that the
rule of present tense as you apply it in your frequently-cited explaination
for Matthew 24:36 "Of that day and hour KNOWS no man" would not necessarily be
an accurate explaination for why we can know the time in our present day.
Could you comment on these inconsistencies? Otherwise I think your
scholarship is remarkable. Thank you for the time.
I appreciate your kind remarks.
If Lu. 13:6-9 does not apply to the break between the Rapture and the Tribulation, what does it apply to? There is a gap. The Revelation is written as if the Rapture were "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10,20). In Rev. 17:12, the ten kings "have received no kingdom as yet." As the Tribulation begins, the ten horns (kings) are wearing "ten crowns" (Rev. 13:1). I have a feeling that the temple construction will be in the gap. Rev. 11:1 indicates that it is there at the beginning of the first 1260 days of the Tribulation.
> There's no indication of a discussion on end time events in
> the scriptures around these verses
There doesn't have to be. Isa. 28:13 says, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." All this teaching that everything has to be taken in context can be misleading at times.
The parenthetic phrase in Col. 4:10 is even more foreign to the surrounding verses. It just seems nonchalantly tossed in there, but Colossians is particularly written to the Tribulation saints. Col 1:13 says that God "HATH TRANSLATED US," i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture is past. Col. 4:10 says, "Aristarchus my fellow prisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments (Moses): if he come unto you, receive him;)."
This refers us back to Lu. 16:29-31: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he (the rich man in "hell") said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If thy hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
During the first 1260 days of the Tribulation, Moses will be allowed to return from the dead and prophesy to see if that will persuade them. He and Elijah are God's two witnesses of Rev. 11.
> Mark 13:23 "See I have told you all things beforehand is
> certainly in the present tense yet obviously Jesus hadn't told His disciples
> the time of the rapture at that point in time.
As the preincarnate Christ, he had shown that there was to be a Rapture in the spring. Isa. 57:1 says, "merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness." Song of Solomon 2:10-14 says, " My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle (turtledove) is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell (it's the time of the firstripe grapes). Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock (Christ), in the secret places of the stairs." Places is italicized and is not in the original. This is the secret of the stairs, like Jacob's ladder. Important events happen on feast dates. The green figs and firstripe grapes limit it to the end of May or early June. Pentecost is the only feast that fits into this very narrow time slot.
Jesus also may have gone over these things with them before. It was hard for them to grasp everything. They were together 3 1/2 years and still did not really understand the Crucifixion. At the beginning of this passage in Mark, they said to Jesus, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? This suggests that they had been told of "all these things" before this moment in time.
Still on the Mt. of Olives, and only five verses after Mk: 13:23, Jesus gave them the parable of the fig tree, which is the key to figuring after the "sign" appeared. They knew ahead of time that there would be a sign.
The fig tree is Israel. The mention of it ties the passage in Song of Solomon to the fig tree parable in Mark 13:28-30 and the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9.
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