Pro and Con 633

Posted 11-12-00

Note: I found an interesting tidbit in Josephus' Wars of the Jews. In V. V 5, Josephus (who was a Pharisee priest and Jewish historian) said, "Now the seven lamps signified the seven planets (this included the Sun, Ant. III. VI. 7); for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now, the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year."

The Sun circles through all 12 constellations of the zodiac in one year. Since the priests knew this, it seems that they would have been influenced by it in figuring out the Jewish calendar for each year.

Incoming email

In P&C 632, someone wrote the following. "He says one of the four Greek divisions will be ruled by a leader who will be a "type" of the future antichrist by actually desecrating the temple of Solomon. This prediction was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes on December 16, 168 BC."

This is an incorrect assertion. If Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled this prophecy of Daniel, then why did Jesus, Himself, refer to it as a future event in Matthew 24:15-16? "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Hope all is well. Give Ed my best. Agape

My reply

Thanks. I am always pleased when someone else can see something I missed. Please always let me know.

We are fighting to keep from taking a cold. Ed is sneezing (and woke up hoarse in the night). I have a bit of sore throat. We just took some vit. C. Will take CS at bedtime. The weather has turned cold. It feels like winter. There is snow in the mountains. We had rain last night. Agape

My outgoing email

You wrote:
> > The rapture in Rev. 12 is a rapture of a new born child [Rev 12:4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [Rev 12:5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. > > That this is not only describing Jesus is evident in the fact that his bride, the Church also rules with a rod of iron: Christ rules, and we rule as his bride (also with a rod of iron), but the Lord Jesus Christ is the head. [Rev 2:26] He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations [Rev 2:27] and he shall rule them with a rod of iron.

I think the man child (neuter gender) in Rev. 12:5 represents the two witnesses. They will be raptured to Heaven 3.5 days after they are killed by the False Prophet Mid-Trib.

The book of Revelation is presented by Christ as a dramatic production, like a play. It even has a Preview, much like modern movie directors start off with. The setting of The Revelation (apocalypse, revealing) of Jesus Christ is when the Pre-Trib Rapture is "at hand" (1:3). We can deduce the setting from 1:8. There, Jesus Christ says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Lord of the OT) and the ending (Lord of the NT), saith the Lord, which IS (AT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the Almighty."

The whole book is to be viewed from the vantage point Jesus chose, from just before the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is "at hand" in both the 1st and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). In 1:19, Jesus said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (before the Rapture), and the things which ARE (AT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE), and the things which shall be hereafter (after the Rapture).

The "things which shall be hereafter" start in Rev. 4:1. It says, " I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (the Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER."

The Preview and the 7 messages to the 7 churches are "things which thou hast seen" before the Rapture. The Rapture itself IS in Rev. 4:1. Everything else is "hereafter" until the sign off in the last chapter. There, the script returns to the time when the Pre-Trib Rapture is "at hand" (22:10). Jesus' last word to us is "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11).

Since the setting of Rev. 12 is Mid-Trib, when Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of Heaven as the Great Tribulation begins, the "man child" (actually in the neuter gender) cannot be Christ, who was caught up to Heaven on Ascension Day in 30 AD. It can't be the church, either, for the overcomers of the church are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. It can't be the Tribulation saints, for they are not caught up till the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14; Rev. 7:14).

I can't see anything else the "man child" could represent but the two witnesses who are caught up 3.5 days after Mid-Trib. Can you? I wondered why the neuter gender was used, until I remembered that both Moses and Elijah have been in Heaven for a long time before they return to the Earth. Their situation is not exactly like ours. We are male or female. Maybe neuter gender describes them as closely as possible in Greek.

> > That this is not only describing Jesus is evident in the fact that his bride, the Church also rules with a rod of iron

If the Lord will rule with a rod of iron and we will rule with a rod of iron, Moses and Elijah will also rule with a rod of iron. Agape

Incoming email

Please help me out here if you will, the following came up on a vine on Revelations and the Rapture and I need some help in understanding. Haven't been able to get any good help yet. Can you help me.

I am very interested to learn more of the 7 spirits and there meanings as to our salvation and what the reference to the seven sprits in Revelations truly mean. I am moved to believe there is a very meaningful message hear for us to understand, I don't know exactly why I feel so strongly about exploring this, Can you assist me in your understandings of the seven spirits (" full meanings") in regards to our "judgement", "salvation" and "works". I refer to the two posts below to start this off.

God Bless you for all your faith and works. If you feel this is meaningful question and will post it on you site please.
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The seven Spirits can be found listed in Isaiah 11:2. They are:
The Spirit of the Lord,
The Spirit of Wisdom,
The Spirit of Understanding,
The Spirit of Counsel,
The Spirit of Might (power)
The Spirit of Knowledge, and
The Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

By the way, these seven Spirits of God are our inheritance that Paul mentions us receiving in all of his writings. Paul taught two things. That the people needed to repent and be saved, and that they needed to accept their inheritance in Christ. It is amazing how many people do not realize that our inheritance was made available through Christ Jesus and His conquering death, so that we could receive of that now, BEFORE we die and go to heaven. Most people have heard of the inheritance but do not realize it is the seven fold Spirit's of God that He gives us. These seven Spirits rested on our Lord Jesus. His prayer to the Father in John 17 proves that He wanted us to be One with Him as He was One with the Father.
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In Revelation 4:5: Out from the throne came flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of thunder, and in front of the throne seven blazing torches burned, which are the seven Spirits of God. (The sevenfold Holy Spirit.) I am trying to understand this one myself. It seems that the Holy Spirit is sevenfold? I am not sure how to interpret. Does anyone else know?

My reply

Revelation has many symbols. The number 7 represents completeness and perfection. Therefore, it is God's number. The 7-fold Spirit is the complete and perfect Spirit of God.

Jesus was given the Spirit of God without measure. He had all the powers of God. II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Col. 2:9 says, "in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily." Jn. 3:34 says, "he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." By contrast, we receive the Spirit by measure. Eph. 4:7 says, "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

Rev. 5:6 says, "in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb (symbol of Jesus Christ) as it had been slain, having seven horns (i.e., all powerful, or omnipotent) and seven eyes (he sees all, is omnipresent), which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into ALL the earth." The 7 Spirits represent ALL of God's Spirit sent forth into ALL the earth. In other words, since Christ has all the powers of God, he is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. Christ is the Lord who deals with man, both in Old Testament (OT) days and in New Testament (NT) days. He also was the creator (Jn. 1:3, Heb. 1:2).

In OT days, he was the pre-incarnate Christ and presented himself as the "angel of the Lord," the "King of Israel," the "redeemer the LORD of hosts." In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus Christ, the incarnate Christ, said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the end, the first (Lord of the OT) AND the last (Lord of the NT)....I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH, Yahweh) AND the offspring of David" (Jesus). He had 2 complete natures. He was both God and man, inheriting his human nature from his mother and being given his deity by his Father (Isa. 9:6).

Isa. 44:6 sums this up saying, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH, King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God."

> > understandings of the seven spirits (" full meanings") in regards to our "judgement" , "salvation" and "works".

Christ is our judge and our Saviour. Salvation is free. We work for rewards. When we accept Christ as our own personal Saviour, he baptizes us with his Holy Spirit, but we do not get all the powers of God. He gives it to us by measure.

> > Most people have heard of the inheritance but do not realize it is the seven fold Spirit's of God that He gives us.

Christ has the seven-fold Spirit of God. We do not, nor will we ever have. Eph. 4:7 says, "unto every one of us is given grace according to the MEASURE of the gift of Christ." We are not Gods and we cannot become Gods. However, we can become part of God's family by adoption.

Eph. 1:3-10 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN CHRIST: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in ALL WISDOM and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." Agape

Incoming email

Re: First and Last Trumpets
1 Thess 4:16 doesn't appear to state that the trumpet call is the first trumpet whereas 1 Cor 15:52 clearly says that the trumpet is the last trumpet. Are there are passages of Scripture that confirm that the trumpet call of 1 Thess 4:16 is indeed the first trumpet? Or is there another way to know that it is definitely the first rapture that is being referred to here?

Also, Rev 6:13 "as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind." Can this reference to the late figs be an indication or a confirmation for the date you have worked out as the Day of God's Wrath? Regards

My reply

> > Are there are passages of Scripture that confirm that the trumpet call of 1 Thess 4:16 is indeed the first trumpet?

When the first of a series is mentioned, there is no need to say it is the first. When the next one is mentioned, to keep the order straight, we need to know if it is the second, or as in this case, the last.

Here is the type of these trumpet calls. Ex. 10:2-4 says, "Make thee TWO trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (as in I Cor. 15:51,52). And if they blow but with ONE trumpet (as in I Thess. 4:13-18), then the princes (elders, as in Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

Mk. 13:27 shows why it indicates that both trumpets sound when ALL the assembly is gathered. It says, "And then (on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, one trumpet sounds to call the Bride group up to Heaven. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, both trumpets sound. The first one calls the Bride saints from all parts of Heaven to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge (the Judgment Seat of Christ is convening) of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus" (Heb. 12:23,24). The "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52) calls the Tribulation saints up to this assembly.

> > 1 Thess 4:16 is indeed the first trumpet? Or is there another way to know that it is definitely the first rapture that is being referred to here?

The 2 passages, I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51,52, speak of the 2 Raptures. If one is the last, the other one has to be the first. The group caught up first is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The last group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. They are said to have come out of great tribulation, so they are the last group caught up.

The 1st group caught up is as the days of Noah. No fire fell that day. The last group caught up is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Lu. 17:29). The last Rapture is just before the Wrath of God falls on the unbelievers on Earth. The saints are all in Heaven receiving their rewards at the same time the judgment falls on Earth. Agape

My reply to excerpts from incoming email too long to include

> > Got this off the Wedg Bbs,, and to be quite honest, I really cannot believe this post, or maybe I can? Read on.
> > (The following) teaching was written by Steven V. Cossey (5-14-1998)

You are right to reject this erroneous teaching. Almost nothing in it is correct. The US is not Babylon. The literal Babylon is.

> > UNITED STATES of AMERICA PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE IN BIBLE PROPHECY KEY SCRIPTURES FOR UNDERSTANDING THIS TRUTH REVELATION 13 MATTHEW 24 REVELATION 17,18 GENESIS 11 MATTHEW 1 DANIEL 7,8 EZEKIEL 37

Not one of these scriptures applies to USA.

> > Knowing the Bible to be perfect and true, we know that mankinds first civilization or empire existed in the Days of Noah (Genesis 6-11). In Genesis 11, we are told its name is Babylon and it is the original Babylonian civilization or empire. The destruction came with the flood then came the wounding. The neo or new-Babylonian empire or head is counted with the original Tower of Babel civilization as Babylon, the first head. It is located in what is now called Iraq.... > > the correct order for the 8 heads...
Tower of Babel civilization
One Babylon < Neo-Babylonian empire
Two Egypt
Three Assyria
Four Mede-Persian
Five Greece
Six Roman
Seven 10 Horns-Imperial Colonization Nations
Eight Sea Beast

He started off right with Babel as the 1st empire, but Nebuchadnezzar's Neo Babylonian Empire stands apart from Babel. It is the 2nd empire of Rev. 17:10, which says, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

What Cossey fails to see is that The Revelation of Jesus Christ is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. That is when Christ is revealed to his saints. The whole book of Revelation is viewed from the vantage point of when the Rapture is "at hand." It is "at hand" in the 1st and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). After the Rapture in Rev. 4:1, events are "hereafter" the Rapture until the sign off at the end of the book, which comes back to when the Rapture is "at hand."

In Rev. 17, the Bride of Christ is already with the Bridegroom, having been caught up in the Rapture of Rev. 4:1. Rev. 17:14 says, "they that ARE WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful." However, there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation. Here, the Tribulation has not yet started, because the ten kings that are crowned as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, are not yet in possession of their 10 kingdoms in Rev. 17. Verse 12 says, "ten kings, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the BEAST" (as seen in Rev. 13:1).

Therefore, the empire that "IS" in Rev. 17:10 is the one that exists at the time of the Rapture, not in John's day. I think this refers to the Pope's empire, Ecclesiastic Rome. The Pope is in power at the time of the Rapture.

The empires of Rev. 17:10 are 5 that have fallen (1) Babel I, (2) Babylon II, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Rome; one that IS (6) Ecclesiastic Rome; and one that is yet to come (7) Babylon III.

I think the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 is the Tribulation Pope. He "IS" at the time of the Rapture. The False Prophet "is yet to come," and Satan himself is the "eighth" of Rev. 17:11.

Incoming email

From: Jason
Re: "Born Again" at the rapture on the Feast of Trumpets

Thank you once again for taking the time to answer all mail. And not forgetting about this inquiry. May God continue to bless your ministry and works. Once again, I wanted to take the time to remind you, that you were one of the strong forces that motivated me to diligently study the Word of God with regard to prophecy.

>Since the setting of Rev. 12 is Mid-Trib, when Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of Heaven as the Great Tribulation begins,

I do not believe you have effectively shown the validity of that statement, that Rev. 12 is mid trib. The strength of your arguments rest not on scripture to scripture comparisons, as mine do, but on assumptions of chronological flow. And we know from many others scriptures that prophecy is not reliably given in chronological flow.

I think the setting of Rev. 12 is Pre Trib. After all, we, today, have seen Rev. 12 play out in the stars during the Feast of Trumpets in the four years from '96 -'99. But there are many stronger, more scripturally valid reasons as well.

Many "pre wrathers" argue strongly that the rapture happens at the time of the star signs in Joel 2:10, 2:31, the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12- and Matt 24:29. Let me tell you, I carefully considered these assertions, because the last thing I want to do is deny the Word of God when it speaks on an issue.

In Rev. 12, Satan being cast out of heaven is described also as "stars falling", and in other scriptures as well.

Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,

It may seem strange to see Joel & Rev being used to argue for pre trib, instead of the other way around.

I have that figured out as well.

Many pictures painted in prophetic scripture are describing two different events, but mixed together in one chapter. Examples, Psalm 2, Isaiah 61, Ezekiel 38,39, Ezekiel 28, and more.

Likewise, I see the pre tribulation rapture in Joel 2, Rev 6, Rev 12, as happening when Satan is cast out of heaven, at the start of the tribulation.

My reply

I'm glad I was helpful in getting you to study the Bible more closely. We should all keep doing that. There is no end to what we can learn. The Lord helps us as we go, step by step.

> > I do not believe you have effectively shown the validity of that statement, that Rev. 12 is mid trib. The strength of your arguments rest not on scripture to scripture comparisons, as mine do, but on assumptions of chronological flow.

Please tell me how there could be chronological flow from the 7th trumpet of Rev. 11:15, the Judgment Seat of Christ in Rev. 11:18, the earthquake in Rev. 11:19 and anything in Rev. 12? There is no chronological flow there whatsoever. Maybe what you are talking about is that the first 1260 days of the Tribulation are mentioned in Rev. 11:3 and the second 1260 days of the Tribulation are mentioned in Rev. 12:6. That is correct.

Just as there is a gap between the end of 6000 years since Adam left Eden and the beginning of the 1000-year Day of the Lord, there is a parenthetic section placed in Revelation between the 6th and 7th seals, between the 6th and 7th trumpets, and between the 6th and 7th vials. In those sections, we have to look for match marks to see where to place them in time. There are also some other parenthetic sections, where we must look for match marks for proper orientation. The 7 seals keep us on the right track time wise. They are broken about 1 per year until the shortening comes. Then, the 6th is broken on the last day of this age, and the 7th is broken the next day, on the first day of the Millennium. Out of the 7th seal come the 7 trumpet judgments. Out of the 7th trumpet judgment comes the 7 vials that fill up the wrath of God.

The 1260 days of Rev. 11:3, when the 2 witnesses prophesy, are the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. They are killed by the False Prophet when he comes to full power Mid-Trib. Three and a half days later, they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven. That could not take place in the latter half of the Tribulation, for those days are to be shortened for the elect's sake (Mt. 24:22). The 2 witnesses are part of the elect. The 2nd Rapture takes place before God's Wrath hits Earth on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:13,14) of the Tribulation. The False Prophet will be deposed on the Day of God's Wrath. No one would be rejoicing and giving gifts at that time.

In Rev. 12:6, we find the second 1260-day period beginning. It is also called "a time, and times, and half a time" to tie it in with Dan. 12, where the final 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days that all count from Mid-Trib appear. In Dan. 12, those day counts are to start with the abomination of desolation, just as it is Mid-Trib in Mt. 24:15. Mt. 24:22 shows that the last half of the Tribulation, the section that starts with the abomination of desolation Mid-Trib, is the section that will be shortened.

The Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 rules during the first 1260 days (13:5). The False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18 rules during the second 1260 days, except those days will get shortened. The Beast is the 6th head of the great red dragon. The False Prophet is the 7th head. Satan himself is the tail of the great red dragon.

Rev. 12:3 says, "there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and SEVEN CROWNS upon his heads." Notice that the 7th head is crowned. That 7th head is the False Prophet that comes to full power Mid-Trib, when Satan is cast out of Heaven and down to Earth. He immediately possesses the False Prophet, goes to the temple to sit there showing himself to be God (II Thess. 2:4). He also places the idol, the abomination of desolation, at the temple. Evidently the 2 witness will not bow to him or his idol, so he kills them.

When the abomination of desolation is placed at the temple, the believing remnant of Israel flee to the wilderness, including Petra. Rev. 12:14 says, "to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days), from the face of the serpent." The serpent, Satan, is on Earth during the whole latter 1260 days of the Tribulation. Then dominion will be taken away from him by Christ.

There isn't anything in Rev. 12 that does not fall within that last 1260-day period following Mid-Trib, when the 7TH HEAD (the False Prophet) of the great red dragon is CROWNED.

The 7 empires found in Rev. 17:10 are (1) Babel I, (2) Babylon II, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Rome (those 5 have fallen), (6) Ecclesiastic Babylon (the Pope 'is' at the Rapture), and (7) Babylon III, headed up by the False Prophet (at the Rapture, he has not yet come). The eighth is Satan himself, the tail of the great red dragon.

Since the 7th head of the great red dragon is crowned in Rev. 12:3, the setting of Rev. 12 is the latter 1260 days, called the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14). The two witnesses are raptured 3.5 days after that second 1260-day period starts.

> > we, today, have seen Rev. 12 play out in the stars during the Feast of Trumpets in the four years from '96 -'99.

What you think played out, and may be a shadow of things to come, but what Rev. 12:1 really refers to is Israel Mid-Trib.

> > Many "pre wrathers" argue strongly that the rapture happens at the time of the star signs in Joel 2:10, 2:31, the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12- and Matt 24:29.

Joel 2:10 is talking about the Day of God's Wrath, when there will be a worldwide earthquake and thick darkness. Joel 2:31 is talking about the darkness that starts on the last day of this age, when the asteroid is known to be on a collision course with Earth. The millennial Day of the Lord starts with the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 6:12 is the last day of this age, when the 6th seal is broken. Mt. 24:29 is at the same time. The Sign of the Son of Man is seen when the smoky atmosphere is rolled back like a scroll. Then the 2nd Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, takes place before the asteroid pieces impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. None of these have anything to do with the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > I see the pre tribulation rapture in Joel 2, Rev 6, Rev 12, as happening when Satan is cast out of heaven, at the start of the tribulation.

I see the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 4:1. This group is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9, before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. This is the Bride group. They see Christ receive the "book," the Title Deed of the Earth. They are present in Heaven before the 1st seal is broken on that book.

From the time that Satan is cast down to Earth, there are only 1260 days left before dominion is taken from him after the 2520 days of the Tribulation have run their course. That final 1260 days is Satan's last time to inhabit man. Agape

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