Pro and Con 635

Posted 11-14-00

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Incoming email

Re: I am interested to know more.
My name is ---, from a very small country of singapore. I am a Chirstian, and I still a "baby". Before I became one, I always have my own thought on religon. Now that I know that this is the "relationship" I want, I want to grow strong. I was reading on findings regarding the Noah's Ark, try to searh for Ron Wyatts claims on finding the ark in Mt Ararat. then saw your website, visited it.

The purpose of this mail is that, I want to be prepared. For His coming of course. I always bear in mind of the parables of the ten virgins.

I need help. Can you guide me to startup somewhere before I can "digest" what you have said in the website. I mean it is literally understandable, but without any proir knowledge of some stuff, it is just plain absorbing and I don't want that. Thank you very much.

My reply

Thank you for writing.

> > I want to be prepared.

This is basic background to build on. Christ is the foundation. There is no other. Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

For anyone, the first step, which you have already taken, is to accept Jesus Christ as our own personal Saviour. Rom. 10:9,10 says, " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

When we accept Christ, all "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) are wiped off the books. We get a fresh start. After that, if we sin, we should confess it to God. He will then cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Then, the Holy Spirit of Christ will well up within us like a fountain of living waters. We will be filled with the Holy Spirit. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

In another picture, we will be filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit as the 5 wise virgins of Mt. 25 are. They have oil in their vessels (i.e., bodies). Eph. 5:18 says, "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.

Peter gave us a list of things so we would not fail to be part of the Pre-Trib Rapture, when Christ comes in the air and the Bride of Christ group rise up to meet him in the air (I Thessalonians 4:13-18). In II Peter 1:4, he spoke of "exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (i.e., be filled with the Holy Spirit), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Then Peter mentioned these things we should add to our faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity (God's agape love). Then Peter 1:8-11 says, " if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS. Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: For so an entrance (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

This catching up that we call the Rapture is the next prophesied event. It comes before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 starts. The 70th week of Daniel is a week of years, 7 years. We call that 7-year period the Tribulation. This Rapture comes before the Tribulation starts. Rev. 3:10,11 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM (Greek, ek; out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Here is the order of coming events as I understand them:
(1) Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church Saints, Bride of Christ, between now and the beginning of the Tribulation.
(2) Beginning of the Tribulation/70th Week of Daniel on Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5761, May 28, 2001
a. God's two men, the two witnesses Moses and Elijah, begin their 1,260-day ministry
b. Satan's two men, the Beast (Tribulation Pope) and False Prophet (The final Antichrist), come to power and confirm a 7-year peace treaty, May 28, 2001
c. The Beast is made head over World Government and World Church
(3) Mid-Tribulation, 3 1/2 years into the seven, Sunday, Cheshvan 23, Nov. 7, 2004
a. Satan is cast out of Heaven and down to Earth
b. The Beast of Rev. 13:2-10 has an incapacitating accident
c. Satan enters into the False Prophet, another beast, Rev. 13:11-18
d. The False Prophet takes over as head of World Church and World Government
e. The False Prophet desecrates the Temple, kills Moses and Elijah, who are resurrected and ascend to Heaven 3 1/2 days later
f. The False Prophet makes war on the saints
(4) The end of this Age, Elul 29, 5767, our Sept. 12, 2007
(5) Beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord, first day of Jewish 5768
a. Feast of Trumpets, Rosh HaShannah, Tishri 1, 5768, our Sept. 13, 2007, the 2,300th day of the Shortened Tribulation (Mt. 24:22; Dan. 8:13,14), Jesus' birthday
b. Coronation of Jesus Christ in Heaven
c. Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven
d. Pre-Wrath Rapture of Tribulation Saints, remainder of Body of Christ--saved out of a fiery furnace
e. Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven
f. Saints in Heaven given rewards for belief, unbelievers on Earth given their just rewards (the 7 trumpet judgements)
g. A binary asteroid impacts at noon, and the dead lay around the Earth
h. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven
i. All Israel born in a day, "that day" (the Remnant who will live on into the Millennium)
(6) Israel buries the dead for seven months to cleanse the land (the seven months fit because 5768 is a Jewish leap year) (Eze. 39:12,13)
(7) The return of our Lord Jesus Christ with his saints on the first day of Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year, Nisan 1, 5768 (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,21), our Apr. 6, 2008
(8) Passover kept, Saturday Sabbath, Nisan 14, 5768
(9) End of 7 years and of 2nd 1,260 days, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Easter Sunday, Nisan 15, 5768, our Apr. 20, 2008
(10) Judgment of the Nations, dominion taken from Satan, beginning of Armageddon, Satan's last-ditch stand, his army against Christ's forces (Feast of Firstfruits, Monday, Nisan 16, 5768, our Apr. 21, 2008
(11) Armageddon probably lasts 40 days and 40 nights, ends Friday, Iyar 25, 5768 (our May 30, 2008) anniversary of Christ's ascension in 30 AD
a. Satan chained on Jesus' Ascension Day (the LORD went up in 30 AD, Satan goes down in 2008 AD)
b. The Beast and False Prophet cast alive into a "lake of fire burning with brimstone" on Ascension Day
(12) True lasting world peace should begin Iyar 26, 5768, our May 31, 2008
(13) Afterward, the atmospheric heavens and Earth are refreshed, restored, to make Earth habitable again

Don't hesitate to ask questions. Agape

Incoming email

From: Jason.
Re: "Born Again" at the rapture on the Feast of Trumpets
...I do not believe in the pre-wrath rapture position which states there is a rapture just prior to the out pouring of wrath near the end of the tribulation....I believe the pre-wrath is built on many false assumptions of Marvin Rosenthal's, and I believe the entire seven year tribulation can scripturally, and soundly and solidly, be called the "wrath of God"....

As for Rev. 12 being mid trib. Your main argument seems to be: The woman fleeing is taking place in the second half of the tribulation.

Let me ask you a few questions about all of this. If there is a pre tribulation rapture (which we both agree there is one, as represented by Rev 4-5) and Satan is not cast out of heaven until the mid trib, then, Where is the meeting of the raptured Saints and Satan in heaven? Where is this encounter described in scripture? Why is Satan not mentioned in the heavenly scene in Rev 4-5?

Why is Satan poised to devour the man-child, yet is unable to do so because it is caught up to god and his throne? If this man-child was the two witnesses, wouldn't it be "man-twins" or something? And shoudn't the child be killed before it is caught up to the throne? But this isn't the description in Rev. 12. Where do the two witnesses "rule with a rod of iron"? Such a phrase does not suit them, but it does suit those in Rev. 2, the saints who will go up in the pre tribulation rapture.

One interesting thing we DO agree on, is that the millinnium begins, when the wrath begins, and Satan is cast out at this time. I place all three of these events "millinnium, wrath, Satan cast down" all at the rapture...

Here is my scripture to scripture comparison studies on these various topics... http://www.geocities.com/bibleprophesy/

...There is a key reason why these things must begin at the rapture. A very key scriptural phrase, day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Again, it links to the "sudden destruction" and the "fire" of destruction.

The KEY problem with saying the Lord comes as a thief "on the unbelievers to destroy" is that this idea does NOT line up with scripture.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This PROVES that Jesus is coming as a thief AT THE RAPTURE, which is life. Once again, since you place a rapture at these events, you might let John 10:10 be describing that aspect of the events. However, what I think you need to do with your theology, is pull all those scriptural references that you think refer to the pre-wrath rapture, and place them squarely at the pre-trib rapture.

Two...Key reasons why. 1. The Wedding. 2. Ezekiel's gog/magog war.

1. The wedding shows that the bridegroom comes as a thief. Remember the dramatic conclusion to the book of judges, where all the virgins were abducted by the tribe of Benjamin? Judges 21. This is not the only aspect to the Wedding. There are many. If all the others fit, then so does this one....

2. Ezekiel's gog/magog war (Chapters 38,39) has people burning weapons for 7 years after it. This seven years is the length of the tribulation. This will be a mini armageddon which Satan will need to be able to point to in order to claim some scriptural support for his "post Armageddon" arrival during the tribulation. The the gog/magog war which ends with fire falling from heaven will be the lying wonder. The burning of the weapons will be the "turning swords to plowshears" false fulfillment of the millinnium.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Basically, the gog/magog war, (happening in conjunction with the rapture) will be the "wrath, sudden destruction, fire falling" all as partial fulfillments. Satan, of course, will claim they are the ultimate fulfillment, hence the deception.

My reply

> > I think the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture, and includes the tribulation and millinnium, based on 2 Peter 3:8-10

Mal. 4:5 says, " I will send you ELIJAH the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD." The 1260 days that Elijah prophesies (Rev. 11:3) are the FIRST half of the Tribulation.

In your...files, you said, "So the 3.5 years of their witnessing preceedes the time when God allows Satan to ascend into the world and make war on the saints for 3.5 years." That is the correct order, the 2 witnesses prophesy during the 1st half of the Tribulation, and the Satan-possessed False Prophet rules during the last half of the Tribulation. You also said, "these are two different 3.5 year periods, fitting into Daniel's 70th week, the final 7 years, which is split in the middle by the act of the abomination of desolation." That is correct too.

Then you said, "Satan is cast out of heaven at the start of the 1000 year millinnium, which will be at the start of the pre tribulation rapture."...why is it that you think Satan is cast out of heaven before the time he possesses the False Prophet?

The millennial Day of the Lord can't come before Elijah comes. The Pre-Trib Rapture takes place before the Tribulation begins. Therefore the Day of the Lord cannot start at the Pre-Trib Rapture. It starts at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The Day of the Lord starts, the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place, then at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5), the asteroids (Rev. 8:8,10) impact Earth. The one like a mountain burning with fire hits the Mediterranean Sea. The other larger "aster" destroys Babylon on the Euphrates. Egypt is hurt so bad that no one will live there for the next 40 years (Eze. 29:11). This is the Day of God's Wrath, the day of thick darkness, the day of terror, the day of destruction. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty shall it come."

II Peter 3:8-10 is talking of the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord when the asteroids impact Earth to destroy Gog's army that is attacking Israel. II Pet. 3:10 says, "But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." These are caused by the asteroid impacts.

> > I do not believe in the pre-wrath rapture position...

There are 2 different groups seen in Heaven before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. The 1st is in Rev. 5:8,9. They are "saints... out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They see Christ given the "book," the Title Deed of the Earth. They are in Heaven before the 1st seal on that book is broken in Rev. 6. This group is the Bride of Christ caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The 2nd group is seen in Heaven before the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpet judgments in Rev. 8. Rev. 7:9,14 says, "lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This group is the Tribulation saints caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The 1st Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell. Mt. 24:40 says, "Then shall two be in the field (world); the one (the wise virgin) shall be taken, and the other (the foolish virgin) left. Lu. 12:46 tells the same story. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

The 2nd Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Lu. 17:29). This Rapture catches up the Tribulation saints so they do not have to go through the Day of God's Wrath on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

The 1st Rapture is described in I Thess. 4:13-18. That is when the first trump of God sounds. The 2nd Rapture is described in I Cor. 15:51,52. That is when the "last trump" of God sounds.

The type is in Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with THEM (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the elders of Rev. 4:4), shall GATHER themselves unto thee."

When the first trump of God sounds, the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, and these saints are in Heaven. Then, when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen when the atmosphere rolls back like a scroll on the last day of this age (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), Mk. 13:27 tells us what happens. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those taken to Heaven previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture). Both groups are gathered to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the JUDGE of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus" (Heb. 12:23,24). The Judgment Seat of Christ is about to convene on this 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the saints receive rewards in Heaven while the nonbelievers left on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief, the wrath of God. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."...

> > I believe the entire seven year tribulation can scripturally, and soundly and solidly, be called the "wrath of God".

I believe what Scripture says. in Rev. 6:17, the 6th seal is broken. After that, v. 17 says, "the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" The Day of God's Wrath cannot come before Christ breaks the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th seals on the Title Deed of the Earth. The 7 trumpet judgments come out of the 7th seal (Rev. 8). They are the wrath of God....

> > If there is a pre tribulation rapture (which we both agree there is one, as represented by Rev 4-5) and Satan is not cast out of heaven until the mid trib, then... Where is the meeting of the raptured Saints and Satan in heaven? Where is this encounter described in scripture? Why is Satan not mentioned in the heavenly scene in Rev 4-5?

There is no such encounter between the saints and Satan in Heaven. Do you think God would allow Satan to bother the Bride of Christ after we are in Heaven? I don't think so. We have had to take his pricks here on Earth, but after we are in Heaven? no. Satan is not mentioned in Rev. 4 and 5 because God does not allow him before the throne at that time.

> > Why is Satan poised to devour the man-child, yet is unable to do so because it is caught up to god and his throne?

Satan is not allowed to bother the ascended saints.

> > If this man-child was the two witnesses, wouldn't it be "man- twins" or something? And shoudn't the child be killed before it is caught up to the throne? But this isn't the description in Rev. 12.

According to your thinking, if it was the church, wouldn't it be "many" or something? The Bible is written so the unbeliever can't figure out what prophecy means. Isa. 28:13 says, "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." The 2 witnesses are killed in Rev. 11. That does not have to be repeated. We already know that.

> > Where do the two witnesses "rule with a rod of iron"?

They are saints. All saints rule with a rod of iron, as Christ does.

> > One interesting thing we DO agree on, is that the millinnium begins, when the wrath begins, and Satan is cast out at this time. I place all three of these events "millinnium, wrath, Satan cast down" all at the rapture.

The Millennium begins with the Day of God's Wrath on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, but Satan is cast down Mid'Trib. God's Wrath falls on one single day. Psa. 110:5 says, "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH." It is not the week of his wrath, month of his wrath, year of his wrath, or years of his wrath. It is "THE DAY OF HIS WRATH." Prov. 11:4 says, "Riches profit not in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH: but righteousness delivereth from death." The deliverance is at the Pre-Wrath Rapture that precedes the asteroid impacts that day. Nah. 1:6 says, "Who can stand before his INDIGNATION? and who can abide in the fierceness of HIS ANGER? HIS FURY is poured out like fire, and the rocks (asteroids) are THROWN DOWN BY HIM." All saints must be removed from Earth before the rocks are thrown down by him.

Zeph. 1:14-17 says, "THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is near...even the voice of THE DAY OF THE LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and THICK DARKNESS, A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm...I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD..." Zeph. 1:18 says, "in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land."

The Judgment Seat of Christ is on the Day of Wrath. Rom. 2:5 says, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against THE DAY OF WRATH and revelation of the righteous JUDGMENT of God." After the 6th seal is broken in Rev. 6:12, v. 17 says, "For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" II Pet. 3:7 says, " 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men." This Day of Judgment and Day of God's Wrath is one literal day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

> > There is a key reason why these things must begin at the rapture. A very key scriptural phrase. day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

And you think the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat on the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture?...The False Prophet is to be deposed from office that day. How could he be deposed before he is even in full power during the last half of the Tribulation?

I Thess. 5:1-5 says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION (not spread over 7 years) cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT, YE BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. YE ARE ALL THE CHILDREN OF LIGHT, AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DAY: WE ARE NOT OF THE NIGHT, NOR OF DARKNESS."

> > The KEY problem with saying the Lord comes as a thief "on the unbelievers to destroy" is that this idea does NOT line up with scripture.

In Rev. 3:3, Jesus told the churches, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What will happen if we obey Him and watch? If we do watch, he will not come on us as a thief. He does not come as a thief on the watchers at the 1st Rapture, but he does come as a thief at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

As for unbelievers, Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

> > John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. This PROVES that Jesus is coming as a thief AT THE RAPTURE, which is life.

No it doesn't. Jesus came as the Redeemer at the First Advent. The Day of the Lord's Wrath is different. Jesus does not come as a thief to kill and destroy at the Pre-Trib Rapture, but at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, he snatches the believers out just before the asteroids kill and destroy. Isa. 30:27 says, "Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire." The Tribulation saints are then snatched out of the fire. Psa. 21:9 says, "Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine ANGER: the LORD shall swallow them up in HIS WRATH, and the fire shall devour them."

Rev. 16:15-20 says, "Behold, I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON (fought after Christ returns with us, his army). And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE (when the asteroids impact Earth), such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: and great BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." This does not happen at the Pre Trib Rapture, but it does at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > I think you need to...pull all those scriptural references that you think refer to the pre-wrath rapture, and place them squarely at the pre-trib rapture.

They won't fit. No fire falls on the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Fire does fall on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > Ezekiel's gog/magog war (Chapters 38,39) has people burning weapons for 7 years after it. This seven years is the length of the tribulation.

No. It follows the DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, which is Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. In the asteroid impacts, the trees are burned. They must be given time to regrow.

> > Basically, the gog/magog war, (happening in conjunction with the rapture) will be the "wrath, sudden destruction, fire falling" all as partial fulfillments. Satan, of course, will claim they are the ultimate fulfillment, hence the deception.

On the 1st day of the Millennium, Gog's army will attack Israel. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is that same day. The Lord will then fight for Israel. The asteroids will impact Earth destroying all but 1/6th (Eze. 39:2) of Gog's united nations' army (Zech. 14:2). The False Prophet will be deposed, so Satan will come out of him and act on his own, as the "eighth" of Rev. 17:11, until he is chained...

In your files, you said, "supernatural destruction WILL happen at the rapture, as God destroys the enemies of Israel in the first of three Gog/Magog wars all described as one war in Ezekiel 38,39." I'd really like some scripture proof of 3 Gog/Magog wars. The worldwide earthquake happens in Eze. 38:20. That is the Day of God's Wrath (as in verses 18 and 19). That happens one time.

In your files, you said, "The millinnium is supposed to begin with the end of the tribulation." That is right, except for the shortening of the last 1260 days to 1040 (Dan. 8:13,14). The Millennium is the 1000-year Day of the Lord. If you understand the above, how is it that in another place, you have the Day of the Lord beginning with the Pre-Trib Rapture? Agape

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