Pro and Con 638

Posted 11-16-00

Incoming email, my previous comments marked M, new ones marked ***

Re: "Born Again" at the rapture on...Trumpets
Jason: I think the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture, and includes the tribulation and millinnium, based on 2 Peter 3:8-10

M: Mal 4:5 says, "I will send you ELIJAH the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD." The 1260 days that Elijah prophesies are the 1st half of the Tribulation.

J: Elijah the prophet has already come, so we do not need to think the day of the lord will not come until after the two witnesses....

***Elijah has not come yet....Lu. 1:16,17 says, "many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIAS, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Jn. 1:21 says, "What then? ART THOU ELIAS? And he (John) saith, I AM NOT. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, NO."...Since Elijah is still to come after John the Baptist was dead, Mal. 4,5 is yet to be fulfilled....

***Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." This refers back to Zech. 4:11-14: "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?...These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah both stood by the Lord of the whole Earth at the Transfiguration....

J: Mt 17:10-13 ...Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. scripture tells us "Elias is come already"...

M: Since you seem to understand that the False Prophet is possessed by Satan, sits in the temple showing that he is God and places the abomination of desolation at the temple Mid-Trib, why is it that you think Satan is cast out of heaven before the time he possesses the False Prophet?...

J: In a nutshell, Satan is cast to the bottomless pit at the end of the trib and/or start of the millinnium, Rev 20. However, he ascends out of the bottomless pit in the trib! Rev 9:11, 11:7, 17:8. Thus, he MUST be cast into the bottomless pit in order to come out of it during the trib. Rev. 12. Going back to Rev. 20, cast into the bottomless pit at the start of the millinnium, therefore, the millinnium is the start of the trib.

***I think Satan will be cast down to Earth Mid-Trib, immediately possess the False Prophet and head for the temple to "sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). He will also place the "abomination of desolation" at the temple.

***Mid-Trib, Satan is "cast out INTO the Earth" (Rev. 12:9, KJV). Green's Interlinear has "he was cast INTO the earth." The Literal Concordant NT has "cast INTO the Earth."...

***Rev. 17:8 says, "The beast (red dragon, Satan) that thou sawest was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (is not in man at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture); and shall (Mid-Trib) ASCEND OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, and go into perdition (he will then enter into the Son of Perdition, the False Prophet)...

You could read it all as, "Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth" in round one. Then he is cast out of earth into the bottomless pit in round two. However, Satan still climbs out of the bottomless pit IN the tribulation. And it makes sense to place his climbing out of the pit at the very start of it...

***I think he is cast INTO the Earth Mid-Trib, immediately comes out and goes into the False Prophet. Then he heads to the temple...

J: ...since this description takes place at the start of...Chapter 9, I think it's safe to say this is another "independant vision" of the whole end times, meaning it's description can begin at the beginning of the tribulation.

***Rev. 9 is on the 1st day of the Millennium, which I think is the 2300th day of the Tribulation. It is the Day of God's Wrath. Satan's home asteroid will impact Earth and open the bottomless pit (it is the key of the bottomless pit), releasing Satan's wicked angels that were imprisoned because they did not keep their 1st estate. Jude 6 says, "the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY." This is "that day" of the Judgment Seat of Christ, the time when the saints receive their rewards in Heaven at the same time the unbelievers on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

J: I think the order of the seals, trumpets, vials has no real bearing to the order things will play out in the tribulation. Trying to say "these will occur next" after these... you just run into too many inconsistencies. Just because John sees a vision after a vision, does not mean that the first vision will take place place prior to the second vision. Rev 17 & 18 are more "independant visions" within the Revelation. And Revelation 12, likewise. Doesn't the five months of torment in Rev. 9 flatly refute a "one day wrath"?...

***Not at all. The wrath of God hits Earth in one day, but the effects of it linger. His wrath is filled up in the 7 vials.

M: The 1000-yr Day of the Lord can't come before Elijah comes.

J: I REALLY think you need more proof than this shaky assumption that crashes up against Matthew 17:12. Verse 11 isn't validating your theory, it is a validation of Mal 4:5, and explained in verse 12. A spiritual application would be, Elijah represents also the rapture. As the two witnesses (similar to Elijah) represent the rapture. Thus, the Rapture comes first, before the day of the Lord.

***At the end of this, you place the start of the Day of the Lord at the Rapture. Which is it? At the Rapture or after the Rapture?...

***I hope you can finally understand, just as the disciples finally did. Mt. 17:13 says, "...THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST." John just came in the spirit and power of Elijah. If the nation had accepted Jesus then, John could have stood in for Elijah. However, Christ is omniscient. He knew that the nation would reject him. He didn't need to really send Elijah then....

M: ...the Day of the Lord cannot start at the Pre-Trib Rapture. It starts at the Pre-Wrath Rapture instead. The Day of the Lord starts, the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place, then at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5), the asteroids (Rev. 8:8,10) impact Earth....

J: I think you are taking this "mountain asteroid" too literally. I'm not doubting that there will be an asteroid, only that there is another meaning. It's representative of Satan being cast out of heaven at the start of the tribulation.

***Not only is it literal, I think it will be cast out of Heaven as the Millennium starts on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:13,14) of the shortened Tribulation. Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here (Babylon)? and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (on the asteroid named Wormwood), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (the asteroid)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL INTO A LARGE COUNTRY (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I WILL DRIVE THEE FROM THY STATION, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."...

***Zeph. 2:2-5 says, "before the day of the LORD's ANGER come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (taken to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD's anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."...

M: The other larger "aster" destroys Babylon on the Euphrates. Egypt is hurt so bad that no one will live there for the next 40 years (Eze. 29:11). This is the Day of God's Wrath, the day of thick darkness, the day of terror, the day of destruction. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty shall it come." II Peter 3:8-10 is talking of the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord when the asteroids impact Earth to destroy Gog's army that is attacking Israel.

J: So, we agree that this rapture will take place at 1. The beginning of wrath. 2. The beginning of the Day of the Lord. 3. The destruction of the Gog army attacking Israel....I place this all at the start of the tribulation.

***I don't. As I see it, none of these things take place at the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is as the days of Noah. No fire fell that day. All of these belong on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

M: II Pet. 3:10 says, "But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."...

J: I do not believe in the pre-wrath rapture position which states there is a rapture just prior to the out pouring of wrath near the end of the tribulation.

M: There are 2 different groups seen in Heaven before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. The 1st is in Rev. 5:8,9. They are "saints...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They see Christ given the "book," the Title Deed of the Earth. They are in Heaven before the 1st seal on that book is broken in Rev. 6. This group is the Bride of Christ caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The 2nd group is seen in Heaven before the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpet judgments in Rev. 8. Rev. 7:9,14 says, " lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This group is the Tribulation saints caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

J: Interesting. I see this second group as the trib saints, who die by beheadings, and are resurrected at the end of the trib. Rev. 20 Placing this second rapture after the beheadings kind of negates the purpose of the rapture, which is to keep them out of the trial which is to try the earth. the light of christians not in darkness, and the fact that Christians have power over all devils, yet Satan has power in this time. Of course you can fall back on the "pre pre rapture" you have on each of these. Quite an odd collection of theory you have....

***I believe in 2 main Raptures, (1) the Pre-Trib Rapture and (2) the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Besides these, there is the special Rapture of Moses and Elijah Mid-Trib.

M: The 1st Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell....The 2nd Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Lu. 17:29). This Rapture catches up the Tribulation saints so they do not have to go through the Day of God's Wrath...

J: I see Lot as reaffirming the idea that the pre trib rapture will occur with the fall of fire from heaven at the gog war, and Satan falling from heaven (as mountains & stars symbolically).

***Lot was NOT taken up WITH Noah. When Lot came out of the city, Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were destroyed by an asteroid impact. In Revelation, the asteroid impact comes when the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth after the 7th seal is broken. M: The 1st Rapture is described in I Thess. 4:13-18. That is when the first trump of God sounds. The 2nd Rapture is described in I Cor. 15:51,52. That is when the "last trump" of God sounds. The type is in Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with THEM (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the elders of Rev.4:4), shall GATHER themselves unto thee."

J: OOohhh! That's neat! Quite a scripture backing up the pre-trib/ pre-wrath split you have going....interesting, but I still think I've got better answers and explanations and supporting stuff. The whole Wedding as Rapture analogies at my home page literally have me stunned.

***I think the Marriage of the Lamb is on the 1st day of the Millennium. Like Solomon, the son of David, I think Jesus, the Son of David, will be crowned on the day of his wedding (Song. of Sol. 3:11, Ampl.), the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

***The 144,000 are "virgins," firstfruits," and "without fault before the throne of God in Heaven at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I don't see how the Marriage of the Lamb could take place before they get there. They are part of the Bride group. Rev. 14:2-5 says, "...they sung as it were a NEW SONG (just as we sing the new song after the Rapture in Rev. 5:9) BEFORE THE THRONE, and before the four beasts, and the ELDERS (previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD."

***First on the crowded agenda of "that day" that is like no other, the 1st day of Christ's millennial kingdom, He is crowned. The Marriage of the Lamb follows. Rev. 19:6,7 gives us the order of these events. It says, " I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for THE LORD GOD OMNIPOTENT REIGNETH. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME...

M: When the first trump of God sounds, the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, and these saints are in Heaven. Then, when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen when the atmosphere rolls back like a scroll on the last day of this age (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), Mk. 13:27 tells us what happens. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those taken to Heaven previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture). Both groups are gathered to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the JUDGE of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus" (Heb. 12:23,24). The Judgment Seat of Christ is about to convene on this 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the saints receive rewards in Heaven while the nonbelievers left on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief...Rev. 11:18...

> > I believe the entire seven year tribulation can scripturally, and soundly and solidly, be called the "wrath of God". M: I believe what Scripture says. in Rev. 6:17, the 6th seal is broken. After that, v. 17 says, "the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?" The Day of God's Wrath cannot come before Christ breaks the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th seals on the Title Deed of the Earth. The 7 trumpet judgments come out of the 7th seal (Rev. 8). They are the wrath of God.

J: ...Yes, I know scripture says the 7 trumpets "come out" of the 7th seal, and that the 7 vials or bowls come out of the seventh trumpet. I still don't think this is speaking to the TIME of their occurring during the tribulation. The sixth seal reads like many of the other things, and is not the only seal/trumpet/vial that can "begin" right with the start of the tribulation.

***There is no possible way that the 6th seal could be broken at the start of the Tribulation. The Beast rides forth when the 1st seal is broken at the beginning.

J: Why is Satan not mentioned in the heavenly scene in Rev 4-5?

M: There is no such encounter between the saints and Satan in Heaven. Do you think God would allow Satan to bother the Bride of Christ after we are in Heaven? I don't think so. We have had to take his pricks here on Earth, but after we are in Heaven? no. Satan is not mentioned in Rev. 4 and 5 because God does not allow him before the throne at that time.

J: YOUR REASONINGS ARE EXACTLY ONE REASON WHY SATAN IS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN AT THE RAPTURE.

***But Rev. 12 shows that he is on Earth during the last 1260 days of the 70th week of Daniel....

J: the man-child is a "nation born at once" before the birthpangs of the tribulation, thus, the man-child of Rev 12 is the pre tribulation rapture. This alone, is a stronger argument and connection than the assumption that Rev 12 is mid trib. Isa 66:7...

***Christ came before Israel travailed. As soon as Israel travails on the Day of God's Wrath, she will be born in a day...

J: One interesting thing we DO agree on, is that the millinnium begins, when the wrath begins, and Satan is cast out at this time. I place all three of these events "millinnium, wrath, Satan cast down" all at the rapture.

M: The Millennium begins with the Day of God's Wrath on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, but Satan is cast down Mid'Trib. God's Wrath falls on one single day. Psa. 110:5 says, "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH."...Prov. 11:4 says, "Riches profit not in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH: but righteousness delivereth from death." The deliverance is at the Pre-Wrath Rapture that precedes the asteroid impacts that day. Nah. 1:6 says, "Who can stand before his INDIGNATION? and who can abide in the fierceness of HIS ANGER? HIS FURY is poured out like fire, and the rocks (asteroids) are THROWN DOWN BY HIM."

J: I looked up the word for rocks in Nah. 1:6....this word might be applicable to Satan & demons. God/beauty/mightyone?...God describes himself as a rock. Satan and demons are pretenders, the usurpers, those who would declare themselves gods, therefore "rocks".

***Satan's asteroid will be tossed like a ball into the Earth. Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here (Babylon)? and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (an asteroid left after his planet Rahab was split in pieces)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL INTO A LARGE COUNTRY (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."...

M: All saints must be removed from Earth before the rocks are thrown down by him. II Pet. 3:7 says, "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men." This Day of Judgment and Day of God's Wrath is one literal day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

J: There is a DAY of Judgement at the END of the millinnium as well. Either it is two judgement days or one. I agree with scripture; ONE DAY, spanning 1000 years, as 2 peter 3:8 says...

***There is no way that the asteroid impacts of the Feast of Trumpets, the first literal day of the Millennium could continue for a 1000 years.

J: There is a key reason why these things must begin at the rapture...day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. 2 Peter 3:10...

M: And you think the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat on the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture?

J: ...No. The fire that falls to destroy the enemies in the gog war is a "partial fulfillment" of this. Armageddon is a "stronger fulfillment" of this. Finally, the fire that falls at the end of the tribulation...maybe that's it when the world is destroyed. But, if today's world is "destroyed" when the millinnium comes, so, too will heaven be radically different with Satan being cast out, and the Bride of Christ ushered in. The "great noise" is like the trumpet...the pre trib rapture with Satan being cast out is a partial fulfillment at the very least. A shadow fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:10, that does prevent a later, more complete fulfillment.

***The army headed by Gog will attack Israel on the Day of God's Wrath, the Feast of Trumpets that starts the Millennium. Those things in Eze. 38:20, the mountains being cast down and the worldwide earthquake, take place on the Day of God's Wrath. When Gog's army attacks, v. 18 says that God's fury will come up in his face. The next verse mentions the fire of his wrath....This is the day that He "will be known in the EYES of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD" (v. 23). This is the day that Israel is born in a day....

M: I Thess. 5:1-5 says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION (not spread over 7 years) cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. BUT, YE BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. YE ARE ALL THE CHILDREN OF LIGHT, AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DAY: WE ARE NOT OF THE NIGHT, NOR OF DARKNESS."

J: (not spread over 7 years)??? Hey, even in your "pre wrath" theology, you have sudden destruction falling twice, once at the start of the wrath, and again at the end of the tribulation. Not fair! Again, some wrath falls at the start of the tribulation, which will serve as a "lying wonder" for Satan, and be a part of the "God-sent-delusion" of 2 Thess 2:11.

***...Here is what I think. There is no sudden destruction at the start of the Tribulation--none. The Beast rides in on a white horse as a prince of peace when the 1st seal is broken. The 1st day of the Millennium is on the 2300th day of the Tribulation. That is the Day of God's Wrath and the sudden destruction.

J: The KEY problem with saying the Lord comes as a thief "on the unbelievers to destroy"...this...does NOT line up with scripture. M: In Rev. 3:3, Jesus told the churches, "...IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What will happen if we obey Him and watch? If we do watch, he will not come on us as a thief. In other words, he does not come as a thief on the watchers at the 1st Rapture, but he does come as a thief at the Pre-Wrath Rapture....

J: THIS, I believe, has been your greatest contribution to all of end time theology. So few think we should be able to know. It's really sad, because there are so MANY scriptures about how we WILL know in the last time, and we are admonished to know the "time of our visitation", and the "signs of the times". But just because a person is lazy, or ignorant of watchfulness, doens't mean they are an unbeliever in our Lord Jesus Christ. This to me, validates the Feast of Trumpets rapture; the "unknown day or hour" people literally have to watch for in order to "observe" the new moon.

M: As for unbelievers, Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."...

M: Rev. 16:15-20 says, "Behold, I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON (fought after Christ returns with us, his army). And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great EARTHQUAKE (when the asteroids impact Earth), such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: and great BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." This does not happen at the Pre Trib Rapture, but it does at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

J: I think you need to do with your theology, is pull all those scriptural references that you think refer to the pre-wrath rapture, and place them squarely at the pre-trib rapture.

M: They won't fit. No fire falls on the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Fire does fall on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

J: This really is a weighing of the evidence... If scripture is teaching that fire falls at a rapture... what does that say? Isn't this evidence of "fire at pre trib rapture"?

***No. There was no fire when Noah was floated up. Fire fell that same day when Lot came out of Sodom. Lu. 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." That is what happens at the 2nd Rapture. No fire fell the 1st time, fire fell the second time.

J: The scriptural weight you have given me for "pre trib AND pre wrath" is relatively light: Noah's 7 day warning, & the Song of Solomon stuff...

***One group, those caught up Pre-Trib, are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6. Those saints are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. The second group, those caught up in the Great Tribulation, are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. They are seen in Heaven between the breaking of the 6th (Rev. 6:12) and 7th seals (Rev. 8). Rev. 7:9,14,15 says, "lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God."

J: However, the BULK of the evidence about the rapture, the VAST MAJORITY of the overall weight of scripture talks about the pre-wrath Feast of Trumpets rapture, which I think you place wrongly in the timeline due to a misunderstanding of wrath vs anger in the tribulation.

***Isa. 13:9 says, "Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate: and HE SHALL DESTROY THE SINNERS THEREOF OUT OF IT." There is no way that this could take place before the Tribulation. The sinners are on Earth during the Tribulation. J: Daniel 9. The entire 70 years were God's evil, wrath, anger, fury. In far too many cases, anger and wrath are synonyms, and it starts with the tribulation...

*** If 70 years were all God's wrath, anger and fury, no Israelites would have survived. The Lord is patient, but his fury comes up in his face when Gog's army attacks Israel (Eze. 38:18).

J: Ezekiel's gog/magog war (Chapters 38,39) has people burning weapons for 7 years after it. This seven years is the length of the tribulation.

M: No.

J: I don't see how you can just glibly say "no" to this. If someone asks how we know the tribulation will last seven years, this is one reason why. Along with Daniel's seven times, and the day counts in Rev. and Dan., and Dan. 9:27... I think you should think about these seven years more. Surely this speaks more plainly and loudly than a wrath vs. anger argument, or a 2300 day/cut short argument.

***The Lord steps in and saves Israel when Gog's army attacks. The mountains are thrown down, the worldwide earthquake shakes all the men on the face of the Earth (Eze. 38:20). It is the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets that starts the millennial Day of the Lord. The burning of weapons follows that war. The trees are burned in God's Wrath. Therefore, they need time to regrow.

***Zech. 14:1-3 says, "the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem to battle...THEN SHALL THE LORD GO FORTH, AND FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, as when he fought in the day of battle" (on Joshua's Long Day). Joshua 10:11 says, "it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that THE LORD CAST DOWN GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN (asteroids) UPON THEM unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."

***The 7-year Tribulation is shown in Dan. 9:27. It is also shown in the first half of the Tribulation being 1260 days (Rev. 11:3) and the last half being 1260 days (Rev. 12:6). Also, Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

J: ...I did not learn about the Feast of Trumpets/Rapture from you, but from Eddie Chumney and my own research into scripture...

***I take what men may say with a grain of salt. No human being is perfect. What I go by is what I find in Scripture....

J: But we should not take our gifts and start coming up with "private interpretations"...I think you are doing this with the 2300 days, and the "cut short". Really, I don't think God would invalidate his Word and change the day counts already given. That says God is sloppy. God is not sloppy.

***God has told us some things we should not close our eyes to. Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the 1st half of the Tribulation, when Israel sacrifices), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib, when the False Prophet desecrates the temple), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (the rest of the shortened Tribulation)? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." When the Tribulation has run 2300 days, God's wrath will fall and the sanctuary will be cleansed. In Mt. 24:22, Jesus said, "except THOSE DAYS should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED." Jesus Christ said this. I believe it. The shortened days are part of his plan. You can ignore them if you want. I don't.

J: We need to be careful about private interpretations that are not solid...What's worse, is that it might also turn people off from the real message, that IS VALID; that we should be able to know the hour of our visitation, and we should all watch.

J: How do you know that Satan enters the false prophet and not the Antichrist? I assume that Satan will enter the 'son of perdition' as he entered the other 'son of perdition', Judas.

***True. Satan will enter the "son of perdition," the False Prophet. Rev. 13:11 says, "I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns (two comings to power) like a lamb, and HE SPAKE AS A DRAGON (SATAN)." II Thess. 2:3 calls him "that man of sin" and "the son of perdition." In v. 9 we find out that his "coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."...

***There are the Beast and the False Prophet. The Beast rules during the 1st half of the Tribulation. The False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed Mid-Trib and takes over. He rules the remaining 1040 days (2300 - 1250 = 1040) of the shortened Tribulation. Then he is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath. Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (i.e., the Tribulation Pope), he is the head (the Beast, the 6th head of the great red dragon); and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail" (the False Prophet, the 7th head of the great red dragon, the one who is possessed by Satan himself, therefore he is both the 7th head and the tail of the great red dragon). Isa. 9:14 says, "Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head (the Beast) and tail (the False Prophet), branch and rush, IN ONE DAY." That one day is the Day of God's Wrath.

J's file: "supernatural destruction WILL happen at the rapture, as God destroys the enemies of Israel in the first of three Gog/Magog wars all described as one war in Ezekiel 38,39."

M: I'd really like some scripture proof of 3 Gog/Magog wars.

J: ...1. At the end of the millinnium. Rev. 20:7-9

***That war is never fought. Fire comes down and wipes them out.

J: 2. Armageddon, at the end of the tribulation.

***The battle at Armageddon is not between Israel and Gog's army. It is between Satan's army and Christ's army.

J: 3. gog/magog at the start of the tribulation. Or, in your case, at the start of the wrath. I also see the first gog war start at the wrath, I place the wrath at the start of the tribulation, not 2300 days into it. Even in YOUR theology, there are three gog/magog wars, you just didn't realize it...

***...There is only one time that Israel is attacked by Gog's army. When God stops that attack only 1/6th of Gog's army is left (Eze. 39:2). It takes Israel 7 Jewish months in a leap year to just bury the bodies to cleanse the land for the return of Christ at the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).

M: The worldwide earthquake happens in Eze. 38:20. That is the Day of God's Wrath (as in verses 18 and 19). That happens one time.

J: Birthpangs are "recurring". There have already been earthquakes that have been felt worldwide in secular recorded human history.

***This is the greatest of all earthquakes ever felt by man. It will shake down every wall (Eze. 38:20). The cities of the nations will fall. Civilization as we know it will be destroyed. Rev. 16:18 says, "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, SO MIGHTY AN EARTHQUAKE, AND SO GREAT."

J's files: "The millinnium is supposed to begin with the end of the tribulation."

M: That is right, except for the shortening of the last 1260 days to 1040 (Dan. 8:13,14). The Millennium is the 1000-year Day of the Lord. If you understand the above, how is it that in another place, you have the Day of the Lord beginning with the Pre-Trib Rapture?...

J: I have the "Day of the Lord", the rapture, the millinnium, the seven year tribulation, wrath, Satan being cast from heaven, (and I think the fire falling in the gog/magog war) all beginning at the same time.

***And ALL at the beginning of the Tribulation, which disagrees with Scripture....Agape

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