Pro and Con 64, Uploaded 2-13-98

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Abraham Forum: Re: Prexistence and its nature, From: RUSSELL RANKIN

First on Isaiah 49:1-5: Thank you for pointing out in your quote of v.1 that the speaker is Yeshua and the "isles...you people" are those spoken to. I agree it is important to be clear who is speaking and to whom one speaks.

Second, I infer from your discussions with Anthony that you consider YHVH and Yeshua to be one and the same person [i.e., YHVH is the spirit God who entered the human body named Yeshua]. This is how "God was in Christ" as I read your statements. Correct me if I have misrepresented your understanding of YHVH and Yeshua.

With this in mind I would like to review Isaiah 49:1-5 making a few observations:

In v.2 then "YHVH has called me [Yeshua] and in v.3 [YHVH] said unto me [Yeshua], "You are MY [YHVH's] servant". A first reaction to these statements is Yeshua's words to his disciples, "the servant is not greater than his lord; neither is he that is sent greater than he who sent him" and "my Father is greater than I" [Jn.13:16; 14:28].

Then in v.4, Yeshua speaks in reply, "my judgment is with YHVH, and my work with my God." This reminds me of Yeshua's words, "And this is eternal life, that they might know You the only true God, and Yeshua Mishiach whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished the work which You sent me to do" [Jn.17:3-4].

Now in v.5 it is "YHVH that formed me from the womb to be His servant" that speaks to Yeshua. In v.6 YHVH said, "It is a light thing that you should be MY servant...that you should be MY salvation unto the ends of the earth."

Up to this point the distinction is made by two words, "YHVH" and YHVH's "servant" and the question that arises, 'Is there not two speakers interacting in vv.3-6?'

Looking at v.7 I note you identify "the Holy One" as Yeshua. Look again more closely. Verse 7 begins with "Thus says YHVH" [the speaker] and He speaks "to him whom man despises, to him whom the nations abhor, to a servant of rulers." This suggests that the titles "Redeemer of Ytsrael" and "Holy One" are descriptive of YHVH, not of the one YHVH spoke to. The same is stated at the end of v.7. "YHVH that is faithful, "Holy One of Israel" is the speaker and "HE [YHVH] shall choose you [Yeshua].

From these verses I conclude that the God to whom Yeshua prayed [spoke] was YHVH, and that Yeshua would have regarded YHVH as the Holy One of Ytsrael. I conclude that the "me" of verse 1 is Yeshua whose existence began in the "bowels of my mother" [unless the entire human race preexisted--that I do not find in Scripture]. I conclude the "my" in verse 5 [Yeshua] recognized YHVH to be his God, someone before whom he would be seen as "glorious." >From this text, I conclude there is a great distinction made between YHVH WHO is the the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL and Yeshua, the servant of YHVH. Therefore, when the New Testament says "God was in Christ" I understand that YHVH by his holy power enabled Yeshua to do the works of his Father [John 5].

My reply

> Correct me if I have misrepresented your understanding of YHVH and Yeshua.

...this seems a good time to...tell you basically what I believe about Yeshua/Jesus Christ....

I believe in Yeshua/Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, and there is no other name under heaven, given among men by which we can be saved. I believe that every word in Scripture is God breathed and that the original editions were without error of any kind, scientific or otherwise. If the Bible says something, I believe it, pure and simple. I know what I believe, but I have no pet theories to defend. I just want to understand Scripture correctly. It is the only thing we have that is absolute truth. If someone can show me that it means other than what I think it means, I'll change my view. I only want the truth. The only things set in stone are my belief in Christ and in the inerrancy of the Bible. These cannot be changed.

I think the Lord of the Old Testament is the preincarnate Christ and the Lord of the New Testament is the incarnate Christ. I think Christ is the one that has dealt with mankind all along, and he was prexistent.

Mt. 1:23: "they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

John 1:1-4,14: "IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him...In him was life...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

I Cor. 15:47: "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

In Jn. 17:5, Jesus said, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Prov. 8:22,23 says, "The LORD possessed me (wisdom, i.e., Christ, the Logos, the Word) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

Col. 1:15-20: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist....it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Jn. 1:18: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I Jn. 4:12: "No man hath seen God at any time...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

John 3:13: "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:31: "he that cometh from heaven is above all...For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand."

Jn. 6:46: "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he (Yeshua/Jesus Christ) which is of God, he hath seen the Father."

Jesus is not just man, He has two complete natures, man and God. He inherited his human nature from his mother, his deity from his Father.

Isa. 9:6: "For unto us a child is born (his human nature), unto us a son is given (his deity): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Price of Peace."

John 17:21: "That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee."

> I would like to review Isaiah 49:1-5 making a few observations:

> In v.2 then "YHVH has called me [Yeshua] and in v.3 [YHVH] said unto me
> [Yeshua], "You are MY [YHVH's] servant". A first reaction to these
> statements is Yeshua's words to his disciples, "the servant is not greater
> than his lord; neither is he that is sent greater than he who sent him" and
> "my Father is greater than I" [Jn.13:16; 14:28].

> "You are MY [YHVH's] servant".


> "the servant is not greater than his lord; neither is he that is sent
> greater than he who sent him" and "my Father is greater than I"

Phil. 2:5-8: "Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man: And being found in fashion as a man, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

> Then in v.4, Yeshua speaks in reply, "my judgment is with YHVH, and my work
> with my God." This reminds me of Yeshua's words, "And this is eternal life,
> that they might know You the only true God, and Yeshua Mishiach whom You
> have sent. I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished the work
> which You sent me to do" [Jn.17:3-4].

Jn. 17:5 follows: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."

> Now in v.5 it is "YHVH that formed me from the womb to be His servant" that
> speaks to Yeshua. In v.6 YHVH said, "It is a light thing that you should be
> MY servant...that you should be MY salvation unto the ends of the earth."

> Up to this point the distinction is made by two words, "YHVH" and YHVH's
> "servant" and the question that arises, 'Is there not two speakers
> interacting in vv.3-6?'

Yes, and in Isa. 48:16,17, there are three: "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God."

The "Lord GOD" is the Father, "his Spirit" is the Holy Spirit," and "me" is the preincarnate Christ, i.e., Yeshua. This is three in one, the united Godhead. Here, we can hear Yeshua speaking, saying, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God." From his own mouth, he tells us that he is YHVH, the Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, YHVH thy God.

I believe he is also the Angel of the Lord. Ex. 23:20-23 explains, "I send an Angel before three, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him....obey his voice, and do all that I speak...For mine Angel shall go before thee." This is "the angel of the LORD (YHVH), the "angel of God," the "man that spakest unto the woman" of Judges 13:3,9,11.

Prov. 30:4: "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Mt. 28:19: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (one name) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Gen. 1:26: "God said, Let us make man in our image (three in one: body, soul and spirit), after our likeness ('the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,' I Jn. 5:7)...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him."

> the titles "Redeemer of Ytsrael" and "Holy One" are descriptive of YHVH,
> not of the one YHVH spoke to.

YHVH is the redeemer; Yeshua is the redeemer. They are one. YHVH speaks of his servant Yeshua, and says "I am he."

Isa. 43:,10-15: "saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant (Yeshua) whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD (YHVH): and beside me there is no saviour...ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), that I am God. Yea, BEFORE THE DAY WAS I AM HE...Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), your redeemer (Yeshua, the kinsman redeemer), the Holy One of Israel...I am the LORD (YHVH), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King" ("KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS," Rev. 19:16).

If Yeshua/Jesus Christ was not God, he could not be the Saviour or the King.

Zech. 14:9: "And the LORD (YHVH) shall be king over all the earth; in that day shall there be one LORD (YHVH), and his name one."

De. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord (YHVH) our God is one LORD (YHVH)."

Isa. 45:21-23: "I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God AND a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else...unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Isa. 49:26: "all flesh shall know that I the LORD (YHVH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

Isa. 51:15,16: "I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God, that divided the sea...The LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth."

> I conclude that the "me" of verse 1 is Yeshua whose existence began in the
> "bowels of my mother"

"BEFORE THE DAY WAS I AM HE" (Isa. 43:13).

Prov. 8:22,23: "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

> I conclude there is a great distinction made between YHVH
> WHO is the the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL and Yeshua, the servant of YHVH.

Yeshua/Christ is the kinsman redeemer. Isa. 47:4: "As for our redeemer, the LORD (YHVH) of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel."

> Therefore, when the New Testament says "God was in Christ" I understand that
> YHVH by his holy power enabled Yeshua to do the works of his Father [John 5].

As far as you understand it, it is true, but there was much more to it than this.

Incoming Email

I emailed you about three weeks ago and in that time I have made a lot of progress with my life. You are a true blessing to me and my family....YOU WOKE ME UP!!!! I have come across some info I heard about our military and a new super computer they have invented which is linked to a satelite. It was created to be used with our special forces as a tracking device to determine the proximity of the troops. The name of the computer is...Battle Engaging Area Simulation and Tracking...or the initials B.E.A.S.T.....The special forces would recieve an implant, called a M.A.R.C.C..which was first placed in the back of the neck...now they are placing them on the top of the hand. They have incorporated this device in our society, by placing them in automobiles to track them if they are stolen and are even starting to put them in children in case of abduction....I have heard that on these inplants, they can contain all information about a person and they are leaning towards using this as a means of identification. I think this has a lot to do with the whole year 2000 computer crash problem....Yes, for many of us, we will be able to make that transition on our home p.c.'s as well as small businesses, but what about the I.R.S. and other government organizations? The I.R.S. can't possibly be prepared for this 2000 crash,because they would have to rewrite literally millions of computer codes and in only ten years of their knowledge of this problem they have only managed to rewrite about 35%...I believe that when this computer crash takes place, they will replace the systems with the new super computers and use this smart chip implant or "marcc" to keep track of us like they do now with our social security numbers and such... Besides, if we went into a one world government situation, what better way to keep tabs on everyone...It would make it literally impossible to commit a crime and flee to a different country without being tracked down. If we did switch over to this new system I think it would be nearly impossible to conduct day to day activities such as banking and grocery shopping or even apply for government assistance without one of these"marcc's" What do you think about all of this? Doesn't it say that the home of the Beast is in the heavens? Could that refer to the orbit of a satelite...possibly the satelite used for the new B.E.A.S.T. computers? I know that you are very busy, but I would like your insight to this...I will try and find the web addy to the government site that talks about these computers....I do know that they have been in use by the military for several years...If this isn't just coincidence and this is the beast that theBible speaks of, would that mean that anyone that has already taken one of these marccs can no longer be eligible for salvation? Also, I know you're going to think I'm crazy for asking, but... I have several friends that have witnessed UFO sightings and plus you hear about them all of the time...something, I believe is out there...what do you think this has to do with Bible prophecy and where do they fit in? Are they good or evil? Just food for thought....God bless you

My reply

> the whole year 2000 computer crash problem

I hope to not be here for that.

> I think it would be nearly impossible to conduct day to day activities
> such as banking and grocery shopping or even apply for government assistance
> without one of these"marcc's" What do you think about all of this?

It seems to be working up the the MARC being mandatory....

> Doesn't it say that the home of the Beast is in the heavens?

Not that I know of. There are two beasts (men) mentioned in Rev. 13. the first is The Beast. The second is the False Prophet. I think the first is a Roman, the second an Israeli. He is the one who becomes demon-possessed Mid-Trib and speaks like a dragon. He is the one whom the Mark of the Beast is associated with.

> would that mean that anyone that has already taken one of these
> marccs can no longer be eligible for salvation?


Re: UFOs. I have researched the subject and am convinced this is a demonic manifestation. They can make one think they see things that aren't there. They can change the way they look. They do things to confuse, intimidate, demean, and say things that do not jibe with Scripture...

Incoming Email

James warned teachers that Jesus will judge them "more strictly." James 3.1 Therefore, all teacher must make absolutly certain their ideas are supported by contextual scripture. We cannot read our ideas into scripture. Neither can we rip scripture's ideas out of their contextual setting and squeeze them into forms more to our liking.
I feel certain you believe you qualify as a Bible expositor. I fear your teachings ignore Bible prophecy. Explain the relationship of Mat 24.6-8 to Dan. 8.14. Explain Dan 12.7,11,12 in relation to Jesus' teachings about the end-time and to John's Rev. 13 and 17. Explain Dan. 11.31-12.1,2 in relation to Mat. 24.15 in the time frame of your premise that X will return this spring of '98. When X doesn't return as you predict (and he will not) - do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Instead enter the Spirit's contract of Heb. 8.10; 10.16 (See Heb 12.14). Follow Paul's model, let God crucify your selfish nature (Gal 2.20;6.14;Rom 6).
Then submissively ask the Spirit to teach you about X's attitudes, values, and goals. After you understand the Lord intimately, then ask him what he intends to do in the end-time.

My reply

I do not think mentioning "X's attitudes" complimentary to one who is the Almighty himself. I would appreciate it if, out of respect, you would take the time to use his name.

> Explain the relationship of Mat 24.6-8 to Dan. 8.14.

Mt. 24:6-8 lists things that "must come to pass, but the end is not yet." They are before the Tribulation begins.

Daniel 8:13,14 speaks of the Tribulation. It tells how many days are allotted for the time during which the Jews sacrifice in the temple, plus the time that they cannot because the False Prophet desecrates the temple in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation. It says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Thus the shortened Tribulation lasts 2300 days, I think from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. There is no other time before the 40 years since the Sign of the End of the Age is up that the 2300 days fits between these feasts.

> Explain Dan 12.7,11,12 in relation to
> Jesus' teachings about the end-time and to John's Rev. 13 and 17.

Dan. 12:7f concerns the time of the end from the middle of the Tribulation on until Daniel stands in his lot at the end of the 1335 days. These days are counted from the time the False Prophet desecrates the temple.

In verse 7, we find 3 1/2 years (1260 days). This is the last half of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. As this period ends, dominion is taken from Satan at the Judgement of the Nations. At that time, Jesus separates his "sheep" from his "goats." The sheep go into the Kingdom, the goats are done away with. I think there are then 30 days of mourning, ending at the 1290th day. After that, on the 1335th day, the land is divided to Israel by tribes, and Daniel will stand on his own land that day.

Rev. 13:11-18 corresponds to this last 1260 days of the seven years. This is the Satan possessed False Prophet, who speaks "as a dragon." Like Judas, whom Satan intered into, he is a son of perdition.

Rev. 17 has to do with the time of the Rapture, for the ten kings have "received no kingdom as yet" (v.12), where in Rev. 13:1, the ten horns (kings) are crowned as the Tribulation begins. Yet, John was shown a view of the harlot as she sat down in the wilderness. This is a view of the harlot church being moved to literal Babylon on the Euphrates "into the wilderness" (v. 3). Zech. 5:12,11 ties in here: "Whither do these bear the ephah (largest wheat measure with this 'rememblance through all the earth,' v.6, i.e., the world church)? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was started): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base (the Tower of Babel)."

> Explain Dan. 11.31-12.1,2 in relation to Mat. 24.15 in the time frame
> of your premise that X will return this spring of '98.

Dan. 11:31 is the middle of the Tribulation, when the False Prophet desecrates the temple, and the sacrificing stops. Then "at the time of the end" (v. 40), "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him" (11:45).

Dan. 12:1,2 continues, "AND at that time (the 2300th day, shall Michael stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble (time of Jacob's trouble), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." This is the second Rapture, for the Tribulation saints. They will be caught up before the seven trumpet judgments hit Earth at noon that day.

Mt. 24:15 is the middle of the Tribulation, when the temple is desecrated.

None of these scriptures have to do with the timing of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Dan. 12:1f has to do with the Pre-Wrath Rapture. None of these scriptures have to do with the Second Advent of Christ.

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