Pro and Con 650

Posted 12-4-00

Incoming email with my comments interspersed, marked ***

Thanks for the reply. It stimulated some more thoughts. I'm now thinking that at Jesus's first coming He fulfilled all of the feast days in order, from the fall feasts, the former rain, Tishri 1, - His Birth, and the beginning of His ministry, to the spring feasts, the latter rain, the end of His ministry after three 1/2 years, at His first advent. Everything was fulfilled for the Jews to be able to accept Him then.

***Since the Sacred Year starts with Nisan 1, I think that only the spring feasts have really been fulfilled. Jesus was born on Tishri 1, but does that fulfill the Feast of Trumpets or just tie in with its future fulfillment? The 7 trumpet judgments will hit Earth that day. Many prophecies will be fulfilled that day.

***Solomon, son of David, is a type of Jesus, the greater Son of David. Song of Sol. 3:11 says, "Go forth (i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture), O ye daughters of Zion (the 144,000 Israelites, Rev. 7:1f; 14:3-5), and behold king Solomon (i.e., Christ) with the crown (i.e., the golden crown Christ is wearing at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Rev. 14:14-16) wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals (chathunnah, wedding), and in the day of the gladness of his heart." Tishri 1 is Jesus' birthday, Coronation Day, and the Marriage of the Lamb. It also is the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Day of God's Wrath.

***Rev. 11:15-18 says, "the seventh angel sounded (the 7th trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE (now) become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (it's the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord); and he shall REIGN for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art (on Coronation Day), and wast (at the 1st Advent), and art to come (at the 2nd Advent, 7 months later, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth." All this is a lot of fulfillment for the Feast of Trumpets. It is a day like no other--ever.

Also, although Virgo can represent the Virgin Birth on Tishri 1, it could also represent the Virgin Bride's Marriage on Tishri 1, September 13, 2007, instead of the Virgin Bride's Rapture.

Also, I thought you made a beautiful explanation at the beginning of P&C 629 to the Catholic Christian.


Dare I suggest it though, but will our Heavenly Father redeem the bodies of His Son's Bride, these bodies immersed in the Holy Spirit but still made of the dust of the earth, from the prince of this earth, satan? And therefore will the Bride price require literally an exchange of prisoners, possibly a release of demons currently in captivity in Hell?

***I don't think so. Concerning the resurrection of the dead, I Cor. 15:42 says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."

I do not come to this suggestion lightly as God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes. At the same time God is fair and just and it appears satan indeed has some legitimate claim on the bodies of the Bride. For instance, satan is called the prince of this world in John 12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11, and Eph. 2:2. Also consider that it is written:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

***Moses is a different story from us. He is to return to Earth in his body that can die, be killed, resurrected, and ascend to Heaven Mid-Trib.

It took the great Archangel Michael to contend over the body (flesh) of just one person, Moses. Just think what it would take to fight over the bodies of all of the bride of Christ? Therefore satan must have legitimate claims to all of our bodies (flesh). And there must be an exchange, a bride price, for something satan wants.

***I don't think so. Christ bought us when he was crucified.

As it is also written: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26

However just as man had been a follower of God he became a follower of the devil when he listened to his voice in the form of the serpent and disobeyed God. It is taught by many that man turned over his dominion of the earth to satan when he followed satan's suggestion like a slave and disobeyed God.

***Satan did wrest dominion away from Adam, but that is of the Earth, not our bodies. Adam was obviously saved after that when the Lord killed a lamb and made clothing for him of the lambskin.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Revelations 20:2

Likewise Christ himself when he was taken by the devil to be tempted: Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.; Matthew 4:8-9

It would not be a temptation if the devil did not have all the kingdoms of the world to offer Christ.

***Satan does have dominion over the Earth. I think it will be taken away from him at the Judgment of the Nations after the 2520 days are over.

Now getting to the prisoner exchange. On Tishri 1, 2007, the pre-wrath rapture plus I believe you have taught that this includes 144,000 that will join the bride and on the same day, the day of God's wrath, an asteroid will hit the earth which will open the bottomless pit and release demons upon the earth as it is written:

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9:1-4

***Rom. 8:23 says, "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." I don't think this has anything to do with Satan.

What about the pre-trib Bride body redemption? Will this release take care of them also or will there be a similar release before the tribulation starts? I don't know. However I started putting together the way I understand Jewish courtships through marriages and I believe there are 4 distinct steps that are gone through in order.

1. Betrothal - usually a year to verify that the bride is indeed a virgin and worthy of the bride price 2. Redemption - If found to be a virgin the bride price is paid to redeem the bride, often by the father of the groom. 3. Snatching away of the Bride by the Bridegroom which can happen at any time after the betrothal year and the redemption price is paid. (Snatching away = Pre-trib Rapture) 4. Wedding - After 7 days of knowing one another in the biblical sense, then is the wedding (7 days equates to 7 years = Tishri 1 or possibly Tishri 21, 2007?)

From the book "Arithmetic of God" under Redemption "Twenty", pg. 91: The redemption of the believers' bodies will take place as stated, "And not only they, but (1) ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we (2) ourselves groan within (3) ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23) The words "This is the first resurrection." Have 20 Greek letters. The statement "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power," has 20 Greek words. (Revelation 20:5-6)

I hate speculating on an assumption based on a speculation, even if that first speculation has biblical basis. But, and I think you will appreciate this, the Bride snatch could occur on May 18th as you (Marilyn) now think the most likely day is for the pre-trib rapture. The redemption could be made 40 days earlier for the 40 days of rain it took after the ark was sealed to be lifted completely above the earth.

***The problem with that is that would take us back to Resurrection Day, which is Nisan 16, and Nisan is the month of the latter rain.

This would put the redemption of our bodies to coincide on the same exact day of the year as the redemption, the paying of the blood price for our souls, Nisan 15, our April 8th, 2001, Passover. Which I noticed this April 8th is also the same day in our calendar also that you have in "The End of the Ages" as April 8th, 30 AD, Christ's Crucifixion.

***I have Thur., Apr. 6, 30 AD.

[I'm almost finished with this book - should have read some time ago since it answers a lot of questions. By the way I'm putting it in my list of top 10 books.]

***Glad you like it. (It only took me 23 years of writing to put it together.)

However, as much as this fits together, I should also point out that this same bodily redemption 40 days earlier could also apply to December 14th (which has been pointed out as Chesvan 17, the anniversary of when Noah entered the ark, if you take when the barley was observed as being ripe this year.). Adding 40 days brings us to my old friend January 23rd, 2001. It could have been applied to November 15th (Chevan 17 on the observed calendar)and December 25th (possible anniversary of conception of Christ). However, I did not observe anything to indicate November 15th was the redemption. I'll be looking at December 14th. If so, by the way, from January 23rd, 2001 to May 28th, 2001 is 125 days, which is 5 x 5 x 5, (555) which of course appears also connected with the Bride rapture. Shalom

***Song of Sol. 2:10-14 says that winter is past. Shalom and Agape

Incoming email with my interspersed comments marked ***.

***Thanks much for sharing your insight on this. I was blessed by it....Since Jesus said he would make the apostles fishers of men, your harvest of fish fits the 2 Raptures very well. I want to study the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000 more too.

I might not have read this if you sent it before. I usually don't open attachments because of the virus danger. I had a virus on my Mac one time, an expensive and time consuming pain. Got it from a dealer too, and wouldn't you know, I gave it to our daughter with Ed's old Mac. Lately, she got 1 virus on her PC, got it fixed and then got another virus before she could DL the new McAfee data. She finally gave up and bought another computer. Now her son has a virus on his computer. It kept opening doors all over his screen and finally shut down the computer, probably from overload. However, since you called me, I got brave this time and took a chance, but I did copy the attachment to a file and had McAfee check it out before I opened it. Now you know why I am skittish about attachments and would much rather have everything saved text only, then copied and pasted into the e-mail document.... ---
You wrote:
In the gospels, there are Two FISH (multitude of men) Harvests (Pre-Tribulation FIRST Rapture, Luke 5:1-10 and Pre-Wrath LAST Rapture, John 21:1-14) I find intriguing. (Note for Luke 5:1-10; Peter, James, and John are fishing with the Lord's help. No cleaning of the FISH occurs.) Peter, James, and John were the only three who were with Jesus at the Transfiguration, other than Moses and Elijah. Also, Thomas is notably absent from the FIRST FISH harvest for good reason. Although Thomas will receive the prize of being rapturely resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture, he is a TYPE & FORESHADOWING example of the Foolish Laodician Virgins left behind SHUT DOORS for the Pre-Wrath Rapture (John 20:26-30, James 5:9, Rev 3:20). (NOTE: James is also a TYPE & FORESHADOWING example of the Foolish Laodician Virgins because Jesus stands at the SHUT DOOR in James 5:9.)

***I think James 5:7-9 is talking to us today. It says, "be patient therefore, brethren," i.e., believers. It also says, "the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." This is like Rev. 1:3 and 22:10 saying it is "at hand." James does not say the door is shut. I assume it is open, and the Lord is standing there judging who is worthy to escape the Tribulation and who is not (Lu. 21:36). Because he is patient, we should be patient, until both the former and latter rain have passed. When winter is over and the rain has come and gone (Song of Sol. 2:10-14), then the coming of the Lord will be even nearer.

(Pre-Tribulation FIRST TRUMP Rapture OPEN DOOR - before the hour of trial, temptation, tribulation coming upon the earth etc.)(I Thessalonians 4:16-18, Revelation 4:1-3, Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 5:9-11)

***The other references refer to the Pre-Trib Rapture, but Dan. 7:9-10 is at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The "judgment was set, and the books were opened." It is when the beasts have their dominion taken away. Dominion and his millennial kingdom is given to Christ. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is also on that day, but prior to the Judgment Seat of Christ.

FIRST Fishy Harvest
The multitude of fishes is a metaphor for a multitude of men. The Net (DOOR) is OPENED at His Word! When the NET BRAKEs, it seems as if some FISH (multitude of men) are Spueing Out Of (Laodicea, Rev 3:16) the Broken Opening of the Net and are not able to enter the ship (heaven). Jesus seems to be a type of the OPEN NET (OPEN DOOR, Rev 3:7-8, Revelation 4:1) bringing the FISH (multitude of men) into the ships (Kingdoms of Heaven, Rev 11:15). The following passage of scripture describing a real incident is like a metaphoric parable foreshadowing future prophetic events: Luke 5:1-10 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon Him to hear the Word of God, He stood by the lake of Gennesaret, (Strongs’ # 1082, Gennesaret = "a harp")

***Fittingly, Gennesaret also means garden of the prince.

2-10 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets. And He entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's (Peter), and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And HE SAT DOWN, and taught the people out of the ship. Now when He had left speaking, He said unto Simon (Peter), launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a DRAUGHT. And Simon (Peter) answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at THY WORD I will let down the net. And when they had this done, they inclosed a GREAT MULTITUDE of FISHES: and their NET BRAKE. And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the DRAUGHT of the FISHES which they had TAKEN: And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon (Peter). And Jesus said unto Simon (Peter), Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

***Lu. 5:2 mentions "TWO ships," as there are 2 raptures, but at this time, Jesus is only dealing with the first of the two ships. Also, "when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him" (v. 11). Isn't that just what we will do at the Rapture, leave everything here and follow Christ to HIS PLACE?

***The two ships also remind me of the ancient Zodiac, where there were 2 ships in the constellation Argo instead of one as depicted today.

(Pre-Wrath LAST TRUMP Rapture or Post-Tribulation Harvest prior to Second Coming?)(I Corinthians 15:51-53, Revelation 7:9 & 13-17, Daniel 7:13-14)

LAST Fishy Harvest
Although Thomas will be rapturely resurrected at the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, he still is a TYPE & FORESHADOWING example of the Foolish Laodician Virgins left behind SHUT DOORS for the Pre-Wrath Rapture (John 20:26-30, James 5:9, Revelation 3:20). After His Rapturous Resurrection, Jesus again appeared to His disciples. They were all blind (Laodicea, Revelation 3:17) and could not see Jesus (the DOOR) except John (type of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Revelation 4:1). Jesus sent forth His Word from the shore (Heaven) telling them where to find the fish (men). The Net does not Break (John 20:28-29).

*** The net breaks the 1st time because the foolish Laodicean virgins are left behind, but at the 2nd Rapture, not one believer will be left behind. The picture is a good one.

Jesus tells them to bring the LAST harvest of fish (multitude of men, Revelation 7:9).

***Yes. It is the "last trump."

Approaching land (throne set in Heaven, Mount, Mountain, from the Sanskrit Sani/Sinai, Sapphire, Morning Star, Saturn, Sabbath), the disciples see the FISH (Pre-Tribulation Rapture - multitude of men from the FIRST catch, Luke 5:1-10; FIRST Division of 5 Loaves & 2 Fishes, Mark 6:30-44) & BREAD (Jesus, John 6:48) in the midst of the fiery stones or fire of coals (Ezekiel 1 & 28, Revelation 4; i.e. Flavius Josephus Ant. III.VI.7, ‘a candlestick of cast gold, hollow within, by which means the shaft elevated itself on high from a single base, and spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them. It terminated in seven heads, in one row, all standing parallel to one another; and these branches carried seven lamps, one by one, in imitation of the number of the planets.’). While on the shore, Jesus has cleaned & prepared the FIRST Division of FISH (John 15:3, Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-14, Mark 8:19) and has a Marriage Supper waiting (John 2:1-10, Revelation 19:6). Come and dine!

John 21:1-14 (KJV) ...Jesus shewed Himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed He Himself. There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of His disciples.

***Seven disciples suggest the 1st day of the 7th millennium, also the COMPLETE (the meaning of 7) Body of Christ gathered at the "last trump."

Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered Him, No. And He said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

***This is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" of Rev. 7:9.

Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked, i.e. Revelation 3:17) and did cast himself into the sea. And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes. As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and FISH laid thereon, and BREAD (i.e. John 15:3, Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-14, Mark 8:19). Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of GREAT fishes, an hundred and fifty and three (153): and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken. (i.e. John 15:3, Revelation 15:3) Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art Thou? knowing that it was the Lord. (John 2:1-10, Revelation 19:9) 13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh BREAD, and giveth them, and FISH likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to His disciples, after that He was risen from the dead.

***First time = 30 AD, 2nd time = Pre-Trib Rapture, 3rd time = Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that Blessed HOPE, and the glorious Appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; The word "passage" has various meanings such as excerpt, quotation, text, "THE WORD", tunnel, passageway, opening, path, way, movement, transition, trip, travel, journey, crossing, and voyage. The Word is opening the passageway to the door for the Blessed. His Word is the key to understanding the door because Yeshua ha'Mashiach (Jesus Christ) is the Door!

Remember that Jesus Christ is the key of Authority to the Net (Jacob's/Israel's Ladder of Faith - Genesis 28:12 & John 1:51; Secret Stairs/Clefts in the Rock - Song of Solomon 2:8-14; Gate of Heaven/House of God - Genesis 28:17; DOOR - John 10:1-9, Window/Wind+Door - Revelation 4:1; Way - John 14:6; Strait Gate Matthew 7:14; Path Psalms 16:11). Jesus Christ is the Ladder of Faith who makes the Firstfruits/Raptures of the Resurrection possible (Mt 22:30-33, Lk 20:36, 1 Jn 3:1-2, Jn 1:48-51, Jn 10:1-4, Rev 4:1, Mt 18:10, Mk 10:14-16, Rev 5:9-11, Mt 13:43). There is a Pre-Trib rapture for A glorious church (Eph 5:27) which are the Wise Philadelphian Virgins with oil in their lamps (Rev 3:7-8). There is a Mid-Trib rapture for the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah (Rev 11:12). Lazurus is a type of Moses; Lazurus was raised from the dead to face physical death again, so too will Moses be raised to face physical death one final time. There is a Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev 3:20, James 5:9, Rev 7:9) for the foolish & blind Laodician Tribulation Saints. There is a Post-Trib Second Advent which is HIS Second Coming with All His Saints (Rev 19:6)!

Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the Fig Tree at her first time: . . . Matt 24:32-33 Now learn a Parable of the Fig Tree; When his branch is yet Tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that Summer is Nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall See All These Things, know that it is Near, even at the DOORS. Mark 13:28-29 Now learn a Parable of the Fig Tree; When her branch is yet Tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that Summer is Near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall See These Things come to pass, know that it is Nigh, even at the DOORS. Matt 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; Seek, and ye shall find; Knock, and it shall be OPENED unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that Knocketh it shall be OPENED.

There are two kinds of doors (OPEN, Rev 3:7-8 & SHUT, Rev 3:20) like there are two kinds of virgins (wise & foolish, Matthew 25:1-13). Mary Magdalene arose while it was still dark (before dawn) with fresh oil in her lamp carrying expensive fragrant oils to anoint & minister to the Body of Christ. While the rest of the disciples were behind Shut Doors, Mary Magdalene went by faith to an OPEN DOOR. John had an OPEN DOOR (Revelation 4:1). Paul had an OPEN DOOR (1 Corinthians 16:9).

***In I Cor. 16:7-9, Paul said, "I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit. But I will tarry at Ephesus (meaning desirable) until Pentecost. For a great door and effectual is opened unto me." Doesn't that make you think the Rapture will be on Pentecost?

***Gen. 6:16 says, "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it." The 3 stories seem to indicate the 3rd Heaven, but they also suggest 3 ranks in the First Resurrection, those who came out of their graves on Resurrection Day in 30 AD, the Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Scriptures mentioning the door are revealing. Gen. 4:7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." I want no sin blocking my way through the door. That is why I use I Jn. 1:9 to get all sin under the blood of Christ.

Nu. 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS (i.e., representing 2 Raptures) of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (BOTH), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

In Rev. 3:8, Jesus said, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an OPEN DOOR, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."

Rev. 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a DOOR was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Rev. 11:12 shows us what "COME UP HITHER" means. It says, "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

Incoming email

Re: "Come Up Here"
Could you give me your understanding of Luke 14:7-11 and also a reference scripture to it, Proverbs 25:7? It was my understanding that this Proverbs scripture is referring to the Pre-Trib. rapture; "It is better to hear, "come up here,' than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, whom your eyes have seen." But the reference is Luke 14:7-11 and after studying the meanings I am not sure what to think. There is an invitation to come to the feast, and those that take the chief seats {maybe first rapture}(best,highest, most conspicuous) and then are told to take a lower(further away, uttermost part) {2nd rapture or stay throughout the tribulation period.} He tells them that when they are invited that they should take the lowest place, so that he can say to you 'go up higher." Then gives the command to stay humble or you will be made lower. Could you give us your interpretation of these two scriptures? God bless you and Ed with abundant peace~! Love In Christ

My reply

Lu. 14:7-11 says, "a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them. When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Prov. 256,:7 says, "stand not in the place of great men: For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen."

I think these picture the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, but the "Come up hither" does remind us that the Tribulation saints will be raptured that day. That lowest room will need a lot of seats for those humble at heart.

This is the day spoken of in Mk. 13:27. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

I can almost hear Paul saying, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel" (Heb. 12:22-24).

I wonder if Peter and John are the elders discussing this same day in Rev. 7:13-15. It says, "one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

Both Peter and John are mentioned as being elders. I Peter 5:1 says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also AN ELDER, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed." II John 1:1 says, "THE ELDER unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth." Agape

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