Pro and Con 654

Posted 12-11-00

Saturn has 4 more moons

The ringed-planet Saturn as seen by the Hubble Space Telescope is absolutely beautiful.
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0012/10saturnmoons/
Posted 12-10-00. Four additional moons discovered orbiting Saturn, BY JEFF FOUST

"The four moons bring to 28 the total number of moons orbiting Saturn, cementing its position as the planet with the most known natural satellites....The surge in discoveries -- ten moons found around Saturn in just six weeks -- is virtually unprecedented in the history of astronomy."

Incoming email

Re: Lunar Formation versus Genesis Account
As I was reading your posting Pro and Con 651, posted 12-6-00 I had a little trouble reconciling the statements about the formation of the earth's moon and the Genesis account of creation.

This is a particularly difficult thing to debate because even among Christian scientists there is some debate over 'actual' and 'contrived' meanings of the verses. As for me, and for the sake of this article, I take the Creation Story in the beginning of Genesis as a "huge time span" description of the events that transpired with a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. This may be a correct view, or it may not. But for the sake of argument I am laying this groundwork.

In the first segment of Pro and Con 651, posted 12-6-00, you received e-mail about the formation of the moon. And the theories that are described therein indicated the belief that the moon was formed violently some 4,500 million years ago. Now, I would not have qualms about this time period if the moon were not mentioned as being formed on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14 - 1:18). Had God not specifically mentioned that He formed the 'greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night' I would have no trouble perceiving the moon as having been formed before Genesis 1:1 (which I believe speaks of a time before the current 'cosmos' or 'system' that this universe is currently running under).

The only reason that I gave any credence to the comments about the formation of the moon is that they appeared on your site. I just thought that it might be important to specify that the secular scientists are proposing the theories presented in the first section of your Pro and Con 651, posted 12-6-00 and that these theories may not align with the Scriptural account of creation.

For me it is very difficult to think of the enormous spans of time and the enormous events involved in the Creation of the Universe. But, what understanding I think I have of the Genesis account makes me curious about how the moon really was formed, when it was formed, and even why it's tilted orbit may matter.

I find it odd that, in the computer model that the article refers to, the moon may have coalesced in as little as one year's time after the 'impact event' that may have formed it. I find it odd because in all other secular-science accounts of the formation of stellar bodies, the formation of things takes many hundreds of years at the least and major epochs of time in general.

I find it interesting that the tilt is reported to be 5. What is the significance of the number 5 in Scriptural matters? I see that the word 'five' appears many, many times in Scripture. Perhaps God gave the moon a 5 tilt for some other reason than we perceive right now.

This matter may be of no real discussion-value in light of the times in which we are living. But since the whole topic of the formation of the moon was brought up in your Pro and Con, it may be some wonderful thing that is about to be revealed. Who knows? The Lord reveals so many wonderful things in such amazing ways.

The thrill of the times and mysterious of God keeps me stoked. Perhaps God will bring something out through this discussion. I hope so. Your brother in Christ

My reply

In Gen. 1:1, we hear about the BEGINNING OF CREATION. "In the BEGINNING God created (bara, created out of nothing) the heaven (lit., heavens) and the earth." It is interesting that the last time we hear the words "In the beginning" are in John 1:1. It says, "In the beginning (taking us right back to the first mention in Gen. 1:1) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is the Son of God, the creator himself. John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

In Gen. 2:1-4, we hear about the END OF CREATION. A lot goes between the BEGINNING OF CREATION and the END OF CREATION, and we are not told how much time the whole creation covered. Think about Gen. 2:1-4. It says, "Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED (done), and all the host of them. And on the seventh day (the 24-hour Sabbath) God ENDED his work which he had MADE (asah, fashioned from existing materials); and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had MADE (asah, refashioned). And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it (the 24-hour Saturday Sabbath): because that in it he had rested from all his work which God CREATED (bara, created, out of nothing) and MADE (asah, fashioned, out of existing materials). These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were CREATED (bara), IN THE DAY that the LORD God MADE (asah, fashioned; also, held [a feast]) the earth and the heavens." The time here is when, right after taking Eve out of Adam's side, the Feast of Trumpets, the Saturday Sabbath, began at 6 PM. At that instant, creation was finished, and all the host of them. When the LORD was finished creating, this "kosmos" (orderly arrangement of things) began on that Feast of Trumpets. Ta da! perfect timing. This kosmos started with, and has continued with, 24-hour days. The Earth rotated then as it does now. One day, then as now, is 12 hours of night, then 12 hours of day. The Sun was there on the 1st day of Gen. 1, because there was evening and then there was morning, the 1st day.

With that in mind, look at Gen. 1:12,13. It says that "the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit...And the evening (i.e., 12 hours of night) and the morning (12 hours of day) were the third day (24 hours)." This day was not 1000 years long. If the night had been 500 years long, the grass, herbs and trees would have died.

God took what time he needed to create the heavens and the Earth from nothing. We don't know how long that era was. If I had to guess, I would say he created all matter in one instant, but we don't know that. However, when he got down to the last week of refashioning out of existing materials, we are told exactly how long it took. That refashioning took 6 literal days, and he was finished in an instant. He didn't slow down like a a car that goes slower and slower until it finally stops. When he was done, that was it, he rested. A new 24-hour day began.

The Bible only covers about 7000 years, Time. We are only given hints of what came before and what will come after that 7000 years. Job 26:14 (NAB) says, "Lo, these are but the outlines of his ways, and how faint is the word we hear!" The JB has, "This is only a fraction of what he has done and all we catch of it is the feeblest echo." We have to pay the closest attention to those hints we are given to have some idea of what transpired.

Gen. 1 in the KJV is not as clear as it could be. Verse 2 says, "And the earth was (hayah, became) without form (tohu, waste), and void (bohu, desolation); and darkness was (no hayah here in the original) upon the face (surface) of the deep (the waters covered all land). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (maybe with a warm wind to dispel the cold and melt the ice).

In Hebrew, when "hayah" (to be) is used, it shows that there is a change. When it is NOT used, there is NO change, and it is left to the reader to supply the verb as he reads. In the first part of this verse, the Earth had changed. Therefore, it BECAME waste and desolation. However, there was no change in the darkness. Dark was dark, so darkness WAS. Earth became waste and desolation, but the darkness existed until the Spirit of God started to work on the cold dark ruin.

Verse 3 says, "God said, Let there be light: and there was (hayah, became) light." There was a change from darkness to light. Therefore "hayah" was used.

Verses 4 and 5 say, "God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light (the good) from the darkness (the lack of the good light). And God called the light Day (12 hours of light), and the darkness he called Night (12 hours of night). And the evening (12 hours of night) and the morning (12 hours of day) were (hayah, became) the first day (24-hours).

Skipping to verse 9, it says, "God said, Let the waters under the heaven (lit., heavens, the expanse of space called the firmament) be gathered together unto ONE PLACE (the Pacific Basin), and let the dry land appear." I think the Moon material was blasted out of the Pacific Basin by a huge asteroid. The darkness was smoke from the impact. By dispersing it, melting the ice and letting the water rush into the Basin, the land began to raise its head out of the water.

Isa. 45:18 gives us some more hints. It says, "thus saith the LORD that created (bara) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, to mould into a form, as a potter) the earth and made (asah, refashioned) it; he hath established (kun, formed) it, he created (bara) it NOT in vain (tohu, waste, ruin), he formed (yatsar, moulded) it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." The Earth was inhabited by plant and animal life from the beginning.

Jer. 4:23-28 blends the past catastrophe with the coming catastrophe at the end of this Age. The part that applies to the past is v. 23: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was (no hayah, i.e., no change, so this view is after things were static, not during the catastrophe) without form (tohu, waste), and void (bohu, desolation); and the heavens, and they had no light." Then, it starts to blend the views, saying, "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." In the gap between Gen. 1:1 and 2, there was no dry land showing. All was under water. All birds were dead. But there was no man either time. There was no Adamic man before Adam. In the latter catastrophe, the men hide before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 strike Earth.

We find out more about what happened between Gen. 1:1 and 2 in Isa. 51:9,10,15,16. It says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old (before Adam). Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab (Satan's planet), and wounded the dragon (Satan)? Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep...I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea (with the asteroid impact), whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his (the pre-incarnate Christ's) name (Isa. 44:6). And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth."

> > I would not have qualms about this time period if the moon were not mentioned as being formed on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14 - 1:18).

The Sun and Moon were already in the sky. It was sunlight that broke through on the first day when the LORD said, "Let there be light." He didn't say he created the light at that moment. He dispelled the darkness and LET the light be. The greater and lesser lights just were not yet visible through the haze until further clearing of the smoke on day 4.

> > Had God not specifically mentioned that He formed the 'greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night' I would have no trouble perceiving the moon as having been formed before Genesis 1:1

In Gen. 1:14,15, I take it as meaning let be lights, as let be the light in verse 3. Gen. 1:16 says, "God made (asah, refashioned, or appointed, as in Amos 3:6) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day (12 hours), and the lesser light to rule the night (12 hours)."

> > secular scientists are proposing the theories presented in the first section of your Pro and Con 651, posted 12-6-00 and that these theories may not align with the Scriptural account of creation.

They are just that, theories, but interesting ones. Only the scripture of truth is 100% right.

> > what understanding I think I have of the Genesis account makes me curious about how the moon really was formed, when it was formed, and even why it's tilted orbit may matter.

Me too. As with archaeology, give it enough time and it agrees with the Bible, so with scientific theory, give it enough time and it will agree with the Bible. Astronomers have just in the last few years accepted that the Moon material was blasted off of the Earth. They tried out fission and coalescence, and those ways were finally seen to be impossible. What else was left? that the Moon material was blasted off of the Earth. They arrived there by the process of elimination, then found all kinds of clues that showed that to be the right answer. The material on the Moon is made up of rock from the Earth, mostly broken and reformed breccia. The main differences are that the volatile (easily vaporized) elements, such as sodium, potassium and lead, are relatively depleted in lunar rocks and that there are jillions of glass beads, spherules, of all descriptions and colors on the Moon. They formed from the melting of material from the sea bed by the blast. Earth's basalt (oceanic crust) shows up abundantly on the Moon. Earth's granite (continental crust) is not plentiful on the Moon. It seems that ocean was in the Pacific area before the asteroid impact, but the basin was made much larger by the blast. That basin covers nearly half of the globe now, even after the continents split apart in the days of Peleg and have since steadily but slowly encroached upon the area. Gen. 10:25 says, "Peleg, for in his days was the earth divided." The scientists could have known this long before they did if they weren't so dedicated to do it all aside from the information in the Bible.

The article on P & C 651 said, "Computer simulations of the giant impact suggest that about two lunar masses of material were put into an Earth-orbiting disk. In the model, debris particles in the inner regions of such a disk are prevented from coalescing by Earth's gravity, which tends to pull objects apart." Between us and the moon are all sizes of rocks. Some as big as a house float by. We are surrounded by a certain amount of orbiting debris.

> > The thrill of the times and mysterious of God keeps me stoked.

I know what you mean. It is an exciting time in which to live. We are seeing prophecies fulfilled with startling rapidity. Watching is very interesting.

BTW, 5 means division. Lu. 12:52 says, "from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three." Five fits the Moon, seeing that it was divided from the Earth. Agape

Incoming email

...If 2001 is not the right time, when will the 2300 days fall right into place again? Is there a cycle to look for; like the thirteen kinds of jewish years would make a set? Do you know what I am getting at? Is there some sort of cycle that only Jews would know about? Thanks for considering my question. I have been "watching" for Jesus through your site since last Summer.

My reply

There are 6 types of Jewish years, Deficient (353 days), Normal (354 days), Full (355 days), Deficient Leap (383 days), Normal Leap (384 days) and Full Leap (385 days). A "set" might be their 19-year cycle. Months vary between 29 and 30 days. An extra month, Adar II, is added before Nisan in leap years, which are years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19 in their 19-year cycle.

A 2300-day period starting on the Feast of Weeks and ending on the Feast of Trumpets 6 years later will end on Tishri 1 in 2007, 2011, 2012 and 2014. The year following each of these could be considered for the Second Advent, 2008, 2012, 2013 and 2015.

According to Eze. 39:12,13, there must be 7 months for burying the dead between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1 the year of the Second Advent. That means that the Jewish year must be a leap year with the extra 13th month. The years 2008, 2011 and 2014 are leap years. Thus, 2012, 2013 and 2015 fall through the cracks as possible years for the Second Advent. Of these four possibilities, only 2008 (Jewish 5768) is a Jewish leap year. There are 7 Jewish months between Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) and Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008).

Adding one 40-year generation to 1967, the year of the Sign of the End of the Age, brings us to 2007. Also, adding the 7 good years and 7 bad years to Tishri 1, 5754, when the Oslo Accords were Ratified in Israel, brings us to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), which is the Feast of Trumpets.

From many scriptures, we can tell that the millennial Day of the Lord will begin on the Feast of Trumpets. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." In Joel 1:9-12, the desolation of the land is described. "The meat-offering and the drink-offering IS cut off from the house of the LORD...The field IS wasted...the corn IS wasted: the new wine IS dried up, the oil languisheth...the harvest of the field IS perished. The vine IS dried up...all the trees of the field, ARE withered." Then Joel 1:13-15 says, "Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering IS withholden from the house of your God (on the Feast of Trumpets). Sanctify ye a fast (i.e., during the Days of Awe, afflict yourself to prepare for the upcoming Day of Atonement, the only fast day of the feasts), call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand (I think it's Tishri 1, 5768, Sept. 13, 2007), and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Joel 2:1-3 shows that the day of destruction is the Feast of Trumpets. It says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and SOUND AN ALARM (with the trumpets, Nu. 10:2-5) in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of THICK DARKNESS, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army is attacking Israel); there HATH NOT BEEN EVER THE LIKE (the united nation's army), NEITHER SHALL BE ANY MORE AFTER IT, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them." Eze. 38:18-20 tells us that when Gog attacks Israel, God's fury will come up in his face, the mountains (asteroids) will be cast down, the worldwide earthquake will result, and every wall shall fall.

On that Feast of Trumpets, not only destruction will come, but the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place just before the asteroids impact Earth. Zech. 9:14 says, "the LORD shall be seen over them (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and his arrow (the asteroid) shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD GOD SHALL BLOW THE TRUMPET, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. This trumpet is the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52. Just as the first trump is sounded by God at the Pre-Trib Rapture (I Thess. 4:16), this last trump is sounded by God at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Continuing, Zech. 9:15 says, "The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones (the asteroids); and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls (the bowls or vials of God's wrath, Rev. 16), and as the corners of the altar."

When the Sword of the Lord (probably a binary asteroid) hits Earth, one piece as big as a mountain will strike the Mediterranean Sea (Rev. 8:8). Zech. 9:5 says, "the king (of what? the Palestinian State?) shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited." Zeph. 2:3-7 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (raptured to Heaven) in the day of the LORD's anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant. And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks. And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity." The Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place before the asteroids impact Earth at noon.

Lev. 25:9 says, "Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land." The Day of Atonement in 2007 will probably be the day this will be fulfilled. I am guessing that the following Nisan 1 will be not only the Second Advent, but the beginning of the real Jubilee year.

When the walls of Jericho (meaning his moon or his month, suggesting Tishri 1, the new moon, Jesus' birthday and his Coronation Day) fell, they prefigured all the walls falling worldwide on the Day of God's Wrath. Six days, they orbited around Jericho. On the 7th day, 7 priests orbited 7 times and blew the 7 trumpets. Jos. 6:4,5 says, "seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the TRUMPET, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ASCEND up every man straight before him." This prefigures the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the destruction of Babylon the day the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth.

Ju. 7:8 also prefigures the Day of God's Wrath, when the Sword of the Lord will strike. It says, "When I blow with a TRUMPET, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the TRUMPETS also on every side of all the camp, and say, The SWORD OF THE LORD, and of Gideon."

Psa. 47:5-9 speaks of that Pre-Wrath Rapture on Tishri 1. It says, "God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a TRUMPET. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. For God is the King of all the earth (it is Coronation Day in Heaven): sing ye praises with understanding. God REIGNETH over the heathen: God SITTETH UPON THE THRONE of his holiness. The princes of the people (the 24 elders) are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted."

Psa. 81:1-3 says, "SING (i.e., sing praises) aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob. Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery. Blow up the TRUMPET in the new moon (Tishri 1), in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day" (the Feast of Trumpets).

When all the saints are gathered to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23), it seems that they will have something to say about whether the Lord should save Israel or not. Joel 2:15-18 says, "Blow the trumpet in Zion (the Feast of Trumpets), sanctify a fast (get ready for the Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom (Christ) go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet (chuppah). Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Zeph. 1:7-17 says, "Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand (Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets): for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills. Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A DAY OF THE TRUMPET AND ALARM against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD." Agape

Another sign of the times

Re: U.N. Convention to Combat Desertification, signed by Clinton in 94 and in Committee on Foreign Relations since, was ratified by the U.S. Senate on October 18. Clinton sent it to UN. We can't even try to get out of it for 3 years.
http://www.rense.com/general6/ussenategives.htm
US Senate Gives UN Control Over 70% Of World's Land Mass, By Henry Lamb. 12-9-00.
---
A companion treaty is now being developed by the U.N. Commission on Water for the 21st Century. The United Nations is, in fact, creating the structure in international law and, through its extensive bureaucracies, to control the use of all natural resources on earth....
Converting forests to pasture, for example, or pasture to row crops, or crop land to subdivisions, are all uses that may lead to desertification, according to literature produced by the United Nations.

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