Catholics, Pentecostals in new body, By UWE SIEMON-NETTO
PRINCETON, NJ, 1-5-01 (UPI) -- Only hours after the Right Rev. Richard Grein resigned as Episcopal bishop of New York Friday, he was elected Moderator of a new and unique ecumenical body.
The Foundation for a Conference on Faith and Order in North America, which constituted itself in Princeton that same day, encompasses not only mainline Protestant denominations but also the Roman Catholic Church, English-speaking and Hispanic Pentecostals, and Evangelicals.
1. I often wonder why you act like those verses about no man knowing the day or the hour were ever even referring to the rapture. I always thought that they referred to the second coming, and that the rapture was not even revealed until Paul spoke of showing us this "mystery"?
2. Your coment about the church starting at aroung 30AD and possibly ending around 2001 bothers me, because for some reason it seems like the time for the church should last 2000 years exactly. Do you ever wonder about such a possibility?
Note: I don't mean to act irreverant to your vast intelligence on this matter (sincerely). But the rapture reminds me of the stock market. Just when you think you have it figured it out, it does something unexpected (I know this is a crude analogy, but I hope you get my drift). Have a nice day.
Re: Second Advent. The second coming will still be 7 Jewish months in the future. Eze. 39:12,13 shows that they will bury the bodies for 7 months to cleanse the land for his return. That will be the day that he will be glorified. He will not return in glory during the asteroid impacts on the Day of God's Wrath.
When Gog's army attacks Israel, God's fury comes up in his face (Eze. 38:18,19). The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). "So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." The asteroid of Rev. 8:10 will destroy Babylon. Together, these impacts cause the worldwide earthquake of Rev. 16:18.
Re: Rapture revealed by Paul. This is how it looks to me. The Rapture can even be seen in the Old Testament, but it was not plain enough to be understood until later. At that point, it was a mystery. Prophecy on various subjects was progressive. Not until Revelation was written was all brought together so it could be understood in its proper sequence. Isa. 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPES, i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (acaph, gathered, REMOVED, TAKEN UP), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds (in Heaven, Psa. 149:5), each one walking in his uprightness. But DRAW NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore." The Pre-Trib Rapture is when the reign of the Beast and harlot church is NEAR.
The Rapture can be seen in the NT in the 1st book. Mt. 24:27 continues, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Then verses 40 and 41 tell us about one being taken and the other one left. That is the Rapture, and it is before Paul's conversion.
Even the 2nd Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints, was there before Paul taught, but it was not recognized yet. Mk. 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." Those gathered from the Earth are the Tribulation saints. Those gathered from Heaven are the Bride group that was caught up before the Tribulation began.
There is no way that I can see for Mt. 24:36 to refer to the Second Advent. Mt. 24:27-31 only takes us to the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. On that day the catastrophe will take place, the smoke will be rolled aside like a scroll, people will look up in that clear space and see Christ sitting on his throne. That is the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30). It is his Coronation Day, but in Heaven, not on Earth. Men will look up and say, "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16,17).
> > Your coment about the church starting at aroung 30AD and possibly ending around 2001 bothers me, because for some reason it seems like the time for the church should last 2000 years exactly.
We can't go by just what seems right to us. We have to go by what the Scripture says. I hope I didn't say that the church would end around 2001, for I am convinced that it won't. The wise virgins will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The clock will restart for Israel. However, the foolish virgins will be left behind and chastised (Rev. 3:19) as the whole world is tried during the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10).
It seems that there are three 2000-year ages of time, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews and the Age of the Church. I worked with Bible Chronology for several years. It seems to me that Adam was in the Garden of Eden 40 years during the Dispensation of Innocence. All the other Dispensations will fit within the 6000 years. The number 40 means testing and probation. Christ was tried 40 days, but I think Adam was tried 40 years. When Adam was judged and cast out of Eden, mankind began to be tried (the trial to last roughly 7000 years) being mortal and knowing both good and evil.
The Age of the Jews is to be extended by at least 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. I think all 3 ages will be extended by the same 7 years. They will run concurrently so that the Age of the Gentiles and the Age of the Church will end in a photo finish with the Age of the Jews. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM that dwell upon the earth."
Eph. 3:21 says, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." The Greek of the last part is eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon, literally, to all the generations of THE AGE OF THE AGES. Think of why this is the Age of the Ages. There is the visit of the wise men to give kingly and priestly gifts to the Christ child, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the completion of Scripture, the Rapture, and 2,299 days of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14's 2300 days less one). This age ends as the Millennium begins at 6 PM when they see the Sign of the Son of Man as the 2300th day begins.
> > time for the church should last 2000 years exactly. Do you ever wonder about such a possibility?
Of course. I try to consider everything possible. I keep my eyes and ears open. I approach Bible study with an open mind. I want it to tell me what it means, not me tell it what it means. I just want to know the truth. If something I thought was true turns out to not be true, I drop it like a hot potato. I don't care who is right or wrong in a discussion as long as I can figure out in the end what the Bible really means. If I am the one wrong, so be it. I will change my view. I have no pet theory to defend. I just want to know exactly what the Bible means. That is what matters, not if I'm right or wrong. The Bible is right 100% of the time. I have to conform to it.
If you look at my Bible Chronology file, you can see how from the creation of Adam to the Flood was 1656 AH years. That is widely agreed to by chronologers. The second Dispensation, Conscience, lasted 1616 years. I think it ran from 40 AH, when Adam left the Garden, to the Flood (1656 - 1616 = 40). I didn't figure that out myself for a long time. A young man, Bob Miko, that came to our house to study the Bible with me c. 1969/1970 was a draftsman. He took 2 of my charts home to put them together and draw them to scale. He came back saying that he stayed up till midnight, but they would not fit together unless the Dispensation of Innocence was outside the chart of the Dispensations and the Ages. I didn't believe him at first, but he was right. I changed my view.
Here are the Dispensations and their length as I worked them out by the time I wrote my first book.
Innocence 40 yrs
Conscience 1616 years
Government 427 years
Promise 430 years
Law 1559 years
Grace 1977 years
Kingdom 1000 years
Total 7049 years
As you can see, I don't think the Dispensation of Grace lasts 2000 years. There are 40 years outside the three Ages and 9 years added to the 1000-year Day Six. So we have 40 years + (seven 1000-year days) + 9 = 7049. I think the Lord didn't want to make it so obvious that unbelievers could figure it out. We need lots of the Holy Spirit's help to dig out all the necessary information. The Age of the Gentiles comes out 2000 years. The Age of the Jews comes out 2000 years. But, the Age of the Church seems to be 2009 years. The Kingdom Day of the Lord is 1000 years.
Note: I actually think all 3 ages share the 70th week of Daniel 9:27. The Tribulation is the trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). Thus, each of the 3 ages has an extension. All run concurrently and end together on the Day of God's Wrath, the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation.
Maybe the selection of the Bride group starts at the 2000-year point of the Age of the Church. That, I think is the 6000th year of mans test, 5758 (1997/1998). From that point to the beginning of the Tribulation seems to be the 3 years in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9 (1998 + 3 = 2001)....Agape
You do well to get faithful believers to pray for your friend, because your prayers may be hindered by your lack of faith. The prayer the Lord wants to hear from you first is that you wholeheartedly accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour with no reservations. Then your other prayers will not be hindered by your own lack of faith. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose. What is holding you back?
Satan will get in his pricks this way. The more you give him reason to think he might succeed in keeping you from wholeheartedly accepting Christ, the harder he will try to pull you down. Do you have any idea of the very real powers against you? Eph. 6:12 says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." If you give them space, they won't neglect to take advantage of the opportunity. I don't want you to be the loser in this battle. You need the Lord on your side. He wants total commitment, not wavering.
James 1:5-7 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."
In the days of Elijah the prophet, the wicked king Ahab and queen Jezebel worshipped Baal, i.e., Satan. 450 prophets of Baal ate at Jezebel's table. I Kings 18:21 says, "Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD (YHVH, Yahweh) be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him."
They had a test to see who was God. I Ki. 18:22-24 says, "Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD (YHVH): and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken." The prophets of Baal prepared a bullock for a sacrifice "and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered" (18:26). Even at the time of the evening sacrifice, "there was neither voice, nor any to answer" (18:29).
Then Elijah built an altar of 12 stones, according to the 12 tribes of Israel, prepared the bullock and laid it on the altar. He had them pour 12 barrels of water on the wood and the sacrifice. Elijah even filled the trench around it with water. I Kings 18:37-40 says, "Hear me, O LORD (YHVH), hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD (YHVH) God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD (YHVH), he is the God; the LORD (YHVH), he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there."
Which side are you on? How long halt ye between two opinions? On the last day of the 2300-day (Dan. 8:13,14) shortened Tribulation, fire will again come down from God. Two asteroid pieces will impact Earth and destroy civilization as we know it (Rev. 8:8,10; Eze. 38:20). Unbelievers will be punished. It is the day of God's Wrath. I think it is coming up on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). This would place the beginning of the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 (the Tribulation) on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001).
The Pre-Trib Rapture should take place between now and then. You may not have a whole lot of time to make up your mind.
The Pre-incarnate Christ is the one with whom man has always had to deal. He is LORD of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament. He is the king of Israel, the YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH, Yahweh) the King of Israel, AND his REDEEMER the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH, king of Israe), AND I am the last (YHVH the Redeemer); and beside me there is no God." YHVH was the one who proved he was God in Elijah's day.
In New Testament times, II Cor. 5:19 tell us that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." This is why Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). In Rev. 1:8, Jesus says, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY." Our redeemer is the ALMIGHTY GOD.
Isa. 9:6 says, "unto us a child (Jesus) is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (receiving his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
In Isa. 48:16-18, listen to Christ talking. He says, "Come ye near unto ME, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it (the beginning) was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit (Holy Spirit), hath sent me (Christ). Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD (YHVH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to MY COMMANDMENTS! (the Pre-incarnate Christ was the one that spoke to Israel at Mt. Sinai) then had thy peace been as a river."
In the last chapter in the Bible, Jesus was getting ready to sign off. The LORD's word to mankind was just about complete, Genesis to Revelation. In case we missed it before, he said in Rev. 22:13, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the end, the first (LORD of the Old Testament) AND the last (Lord of the New Testament)." In verses 16 and 17, he said, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH) AND the offspring of David (Y'shua, Jesus), and the bright and morning star (his throne is on a planet that is a morning star at the time of the Rapture). And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Come, Joshua. Take the water of life freely. Jesus is from the Greek. His name derived from the Hebrew is Joshua. It means YHVH is Saviour (Yahwehshua, Y'shua, Jehoshua, Jeshua, Joshua, Jesus). Come on, Joshua, live up to your name. Accept Jesus wholeheartedly without reservation.
I John 5:12 says, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Agape
...inside the Vatican, yet another enormous box arrived filled with petitions asking Pope John Paul II to exercise his absolute power to proclaim a new and highly debated dogma: that the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and cooperates fully with her son in the redemption of mankind....
If Miravalle's campaign succeeds and John Paul proclaims the Virgin Mary as a co-redeemer, she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to a fourth member of the Holy Trinity...Roman Catholics would be required to accept three new spiritual truths: that Mary is co-redemptrix and participates in people's redemption, that Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces and that Mary is "the advocate for the people of God," in Miravalle's words, and has the authority to influence God's judgments....
Two other Marian dogmas -- the dogma of the Assumption in 1950, which declared that Mary was taken up, body and soul, to heaven after her death, and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of 1854, which established that Mary was preserved from original sin -- were both preceded by floods of petitions....
the dogma would be an infallible proclamation by the pope...
Pope John Paul has made no secret of his devotion to Mary. He has the phrase "totus tuus"..."totally hers") as his papal motto...He has used the phrase "co-redemptrix" six times in his papacy to describe Mary...
Zech. 5:5-11 says, "This is an ephah (largest measure for wheat, i.e., the world church) that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through ALL THE EARTH. And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a WOMAN that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. And he said, THIS IS WICKEDNESS. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (Babylon, Gen. 11:2): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (the Tower of Babel).
Zech. 5:4 says, "I will bring it (the curse, the flying rolling thing, the asteroid) forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet, a thief like Judas Iscariot), and into the house of HIM THAT SWEARETH FALSELY BY MY NAME (claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."
Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a STONE like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."
I wonder if you have a thought on the following: Assuming a Christian watches for & prays about the rapture; then what is your thought or scripture on how much time before the rapture takes place does the Lord warn His children? I've heard 7 days and 7 years with logical reasons behind both of them.
As you know,several rapture dates that seemed to have had distinct signs/reasons have come and gone, but I just wonder if now that we've experienced errors of this nature, we'll get a warning that will be totally unquestionable? It makes me wonder what kind of warning this might consist of that we as Christians would be totally certain of. Any ideas?
I would appreciate knowing your thinking along these lines. Again thank you.
If the peace treaty is signed before next Pentecost, that would seem like a sign that the covenant would be confirmed (Dan. 9:27) on Pentecost.
We have already seen "signs" in the Sun, Moon and Constellations, so we know that our "redemption draweth nigh" (Lu. 21:25,28). It looks like we are almost home. Agape
Frustrated, I opened my Bible, laid my hands on it, and said, "Lord! you'll have to show me. I want to know everything you want man to know about the Bible, all the deep things, everything." I mainly stuck to different versions of the Bible and Strong's Concordance after that. Finally, the light dawned on the real meanings of the cherubim and flaming sword. But, I didn't do it. The Lord did it. My only part in it was my persistent searching. If I could have done it, I would have found it out in that 7 years of constant study. Jesus said that without him we could do nothing. I believe it, and that's enough to keep anyone humble. Satan's sin was pride, and I'm not about to fall in that ditch. I am just determined to keep on keeping on and walking the Christian walk as the Lord would have me do. When I get knocked down, with His help, I get back up and carry on. I know that without Him, I couldn't even do that.
Re: cherubim. I finally started looking up all the words in Eze. 1 in Strong's Concordance and whatever else I had that might help. The first glimmer of light came when I got to verse 4. Ezekiel is looking up at the sky. Then verse 4 said, "a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a BRIGHTNESS was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." The word for brightness in Strong's was "nogahh," brilliant light, clear shining. In Gesenius' Lexicon, it was shining splendour, as of fire, of the sun. OF THE SUN, of course, a fire enfolding itself is the Sun and the shining from it is sunlight. Whew! First baby step. I don't think the translators understood those visions, either.
Second clue. There were 4 wheels. Verse 15 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces." What does Earth have that could be represented by a wheel? Sure. Since Ezekiel was looking up at the sky, Earth's wheel would have to be its orbit. The wheels were as if they were a wheel within a wheel, just as the orbits of the 4 terrestrial planets were concentric circles around the central Sun. I was on my way, thanks to the Lord's help. Why didn't I figure that out before? Probably to show me that in my own strength, I just could not do it. I remember my sister-in-law asking how in the world I could figure that out. I told her I had to start looking up every word in the Hebrew, but there was more to it than that. The Lord had to open my understanding.
One night, he woke me from sleep. I was absolutely terrified. My heart was beating like a little bird trying to get out of my chest. The Lord said, "Be still and know that I am God." (My heart quieted instantly.) Nothing else. I was still until daybreak, but nothing else happened. It wasn't until about 20 years later that I finally understood. I was reading the Septuagint when it hit me. Job 33:15 said, "When the Lord SPEAKS once, or a second time, sending a dream, or in the meditation of the night; (as when a DREADFUL ALARM happens to fall upon men, in slumberings on the bed:) THEN OPENS HE THE UNDERSTANDING OF MEN."
On my own, I probably never would have understood Ezekiel's visions. I am not telling any of this to brag, for I had nothing to do with it. I am just telling the plain truth of what happened. The Lord was answering my prayer for understanding. He did it beyond my wildest dreams, not because I was anything special, but because he just chose to do it. The only reason I can think of that he might have done it was because I truly love the Lord, study the Bible a lot, and I asked. I really want to know everything I can learn about it. I think it is wonderful that the Creator happens to care enough about us to provide us a Saviour and an instruction book so we can pass his test. He didn't have to do that, but he did. I appreciate it so much. Agape
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