Pro and Con 675

Posted 1-23-01

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From the Shepherd's Chapel student:
Marilyn wrote:
> >I can't see how the Rapture could be after the 70th week of Daniel/Tribulation begins, and I think that will be on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 2001.
> > I am hoping, because I am not a prophet. I can't say anything for certain, just how it looks now that I have studied the Bible as deep as I can go for the last 40 years. If that date passes, I will have to study the prophecies again, but right now, I can't see it going past Pentecost, 2001. Current events make everything seem ready.

well, i assure you that there will be no such rapture on that date. it is a bit sad that you might just re-figure the dates to excuse why this rapture never happened.

> > I think the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34 was fulfilled when Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights) in the Six-Day War of 1967. One generation, according to Mt. 23:36, is 40 years. In the first century, that generation was from 30 AD to 70 AD. 1967 + 40 = 2007.

well well, we agree very much on this. i also see the parable as dealing NOT with the planting of the fig tree, but a time after that where it is blossuming out and "growing"...the six day war is that time i believe. Christ could very well return sometime in 2007...but that will be the one and only time.

My reply

I'm not perfect, no human is. I'm no prophet, and don't expect any until Moses and Elijah arrive as the Tribulation begins. I am bound to be wrong about some things. I'm not proud. I'm not afraid to be wrong. I am giving my best to understand God's Word, the only rock-hard truth we have to go by. I will continue to adjust my views in keeping with what I can figure out that the Word of God means until the Rapture takes place. I don't waste time trying to justify my view. My view is worthless unless it agrees with Scripture. I just study Scripture as deep and hard as I can go. Making a mistake doesn't make me quit studying, it just makes me more determined to do everything I can to correctly understand Scripture. I pray for the Lord's help and keep studying. I have no plans to do otherwise.

Are you flexible? or rigid? Have you adjusted your view lately because you found out that Scripture meant something different from what you had thought it did? Or do you already know everything? Have you studied Scripture hard to see what things it might teach you regardless of what happens to your views? The Bible is a deep subject of study. There is more there to understand than any one person can ever unravel in a lifetime. Even the prophets didn't always understand all of God's prophecies.

I Peter 1:11-13 says, "the prophets...prophesied of the GRACE that should come unto YOU: SEARCHING what, OR WHAT MANNER OF TIME THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM DID SIGNIFY, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ (First Advent), and the glory (Second Advent) that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT UNTO THEMSELVES, BUT UNTO US they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

The "Revelation of Jesus Christ" is the Rapture. It is when he will be revealed to the Bride of Christ. I John 3:2 says, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The Revelation of Jesus Christ 1:13-16 tells us how he will look when he is revealed to his Bride right after the Rapture. It says, "in the midst of the seven candlesticks (7 church groups, v. 20) one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (symbol of royalty). His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars (the star achievers of the 7 churches having just been caught up): and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword (to cut off the foolish virgins, Lu. 12:46): and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

Imagine being there when John is there, and swooning because of the absolute majesty of the Lord who is God. John was overcome. In 1:17,18, he said, "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me (in his "voice as the sound of many waters,' 1:15), Fear not; I am the first (LORD of the Old Testament) and the last (Lord of the New Testament): I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." We listen as Christ also says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (LORD of the Old Testament) and the ending (Lord of the New Testament), saith the Lord, WHICH IS (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY."

"WHICH IS" there represents the same thing as the "THINGS WHICH ARE" in v. 19. It says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Rapture), and the THINGS WHICH ARE (the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" ("hereafter" the Rapture, 4:1).

I do so hope that you will be standing there among the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (5:9) and the apostles (only out of Israel) and the patriarchs (only out of Israel) on the day of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I want you to be there to see Christ given the Title Deed of the Earth. I want you to be there when he breaks the first seal on it.

Jesus promised the overcomers, saying in 3:8-10, "I have set before thee an open door (the door of Heaven, 4:1), and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but DO LIE; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, out of) the hour of temptation (the Tribulation), which shall ('afterward,' 4:1) come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Try to imagine who those are that "DO LIE" and that would have to "come and worship before thy feet" when Jesus makes THEM know that he has loved YOU right after the Rapture.

> > 1967 + 40 = 2007. > well well, we agree very much on this.

Bless you for having the insight to recognize this. You know how things happened to Israel as types for us that are living at the end of this age. I Cor. 10:11 says, "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends (plural) of the world (aionos, ages) are come. What are the ends of the ages?

There are three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church. I think all three ages will have a final week of years added and run concurrently as the final trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). We can see that the Age of the Jews has a final week of years coming. It is the 70th week of Dan. 9:27. It is the 5th cycle of discipline for Israel. In Lev. 26:27,28, the LORD said, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (years, Rev. 12:6,14) for your sins."

When the Lord gave the Olivet Discourse, he said that the Great Tribulation would be shortened or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:22). Dan. 8:12,13 shows us that the first half of the Tribulation, when the Jews can sacrifice, plus the last shortened half of the Great Tribulation, when the Jews can't sacrifice because the False Prophet will desecrate the temple, will last 2300 days.

Counting the day that Jesus presented himself to Israel as King and went to the temple on Palm Sunday as day #1 to the day that the temple was burned because of their rejection of him as King was 40 years plus another 120 days (From Nisan 8 in 30 AD to Av 10 in 70 AD). That was a type to show us things to come in the ends of the ages, i.e., in our days.

From the day that Israel took back the temple area on Iyar 28 (June 7, 1967) plus 40 years plus another 120 days is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). That is exactly 14 years (7 good, 7 bad) from when the Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. They were ratified 3 days later, on Tishri 1, in Israel. That is exactly 14 years (7 good, 7 bad) from Tishri 1, 5754 to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). It is the Feast of Trumpets. That seems to be when God's Wrath will fall on unbelievers. It would be very like the type for the temple that has been desecrated by the False Prophet to be burned that day, 40 years plus another 120 days, because I think that is Coronation Day for Christ in Heaven. It is the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Day of God's Wrath.

Christ presented himself as King at the beginning of the 40 years + 120 day period from 30 to 70 AD. And he will be crowned King of kings and Lord of lords at the end of this 40 years + 120 days. It is yet 7 Jewish months to the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13), but I think it is the day he receives his kingdom, the first day of the 1000-year Day of the Lord.

Figuring out when the 2300-day Tribulation starts is a snap. Counting backward from Tishri 1, 5768, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, we find the 2300-Day Tribulation starting Sivan 6, 5761, next Pentecost, May 28, 2001.

Get ready. Use 1 John 1:9. That day could be the day that those that "DO LIE" will have to worship before your feet and to know that the Lord loves you. Be a wise virgin that has enough of the oil of the Holy Spirit to go with the Bridegroom when he comes for his Bride. The Bride will be kept FROM the trial that is to come upon the whole world. I think the Bride group will be safe in Heaven with the Bridegroom that day. Let us reason together. What do you think? Please use Scripture to back up your position. It is the only real truth we have to go by.

If you don't have the free Bible Plus search program for all Windows users, you can DL it at:
It is wonderful. I don't know how I ever did without it, but as a previous Mac user, I couldn't use it. Then when someone very nice gave me a new HP Pavilion computer, I was finally able to use it. What a blessing. You can give it the address and pull up in a wink any scripture you want, then copy and paste it anywhere. Saves looking it up in the Bible and then typing it out. Plus, you can tell it to search for a word or phrase. It will find every instance where it appears so fast you will hardly believe it.

Here's an example: I want to look up Isa. 18. I don't know just which verse I want yet, so I pull up Isa. 18 and click on the little open Bible icon. It prints out the whole chapter. I scroll down to what I want. Here is Isa. 18:3,4 copied and pasted into this e-mail. I add what I want to emphasize.

"3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he (the LORD) lifteth up an ensign (flag, i.e., of the One World Government) on the mountains (nations); and when HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, hear ye. (He blows the "trump of God" at the Rapture, I Thess. 4:16.)
4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (see) in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest." Pentecost is this harvest for in the following section, summer and winter follow this. I hope I see you in Heaven next Pentecost. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Regarding procon 672
In regards to the message concerning the shepherd's chapel broadcast, you were very wise to stopping watching that show, Marilyn. For more information for you and your visitors on this deception and others, there is a very good website I came across for you to review. In Christ
Re: Pastor Arnold Murray and Shepherd's Chapel
...heretical doctrine. The message Arnold Murray is spreading is cultic and lethal to one’s soul. And from an earthly perspective his teachings promote bigotry against Jews, blacks and all non - Anglo - Saxon people. This contrasts markedly with the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Gal. 5:22-23).

So beware of Arnold Murray. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and... is the one who doesn’t know his Bible. He:
Denies the historic doctrine of the Trinity.
Believes that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth.
Teaches the divisive doctrine promoted by other cults that the Anglo-Saxons are the chosen race, and America and Great Britain are the lost tribes of the children of Israel.
Denies the existence of hell.
Claims the doctrine of the rapture is "cultic."...

But the core of his teaching centers around the sinister "serpent seed" doctrine...that in the Garden of Eden, Eve’s sin was that of having literal sexual intercourse with the serpent, which resulted in the pregnancy that produced Cain; the devil’s literal offspring.

Murray says the descendants of this offspring are the "Kenites," a hybrid that include the Jews of today. These were the "Jews" who killed Christ, he has stated in his tape called "Grace: Baptism," adding that "if you have ever really believed that group was the chosen of God you were deceived by Satan!"

In the same tape Murray teaches that even among Christians the different races should have no fellowship.

But Paul says in Gal. 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."...

My reply

It is sad. Concerning British Israelism, I remember Rev. 3:9. It says, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Once you know that verse, how anyone could accept British Israelism is beyond my comprehension.

In the beginning, I was afraid of being led astray step by reasonable sounding step. I would not study with the Jehovah's Witnesses when they offered to have Bible studies with me. I read my Bible first, before I read what man said about the Bible and before I listened to what people said. That way, I could tell quickly whether what they said agreed with Scripture or not. Knowing Scripture was my insurance against false doctrines of this world. That was the best thing I could have done to keep a clear head of what was right and what was wrong through my 7 years of almost constant reading of books that man wrote about the Bible from BIOLA's Seminary Collection.

I thank the Lord that I had the good sense to read Scripture first. I was only about 32, cooking and keeping house for my husband and raising 2 small children, when I started studying the Bible in earnest. It would have been less time consuming to study with someone else and let them tell me what to believe, but I had a strong fear of doing that and taking a chance on being misled. Somehow, I had to do it the hard way, and that turned out to be the best way.

The article above says,
"Denies the existence of hell.
Claims the doctrine of the rapture is "cultic."

I don't argue with Jesus. He knows. In Mt. 25:41,46. he said, "Then shall he say also unto them (the goats) on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels...these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The Shepherd's Chapel student that I have been exchanging e-mail with said, "well, i assure you that there will be no such rapture on that date."

I can't guarantee that there will be, or won't be on that date, but I am watching, studying, and have about the biggest hope of our being soon Raptured I could have. I KNOW the Rapture is our "blessed hope." I am really "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). It can't be far off.

This student doesn't think there will be a Rapture at all. The sad thing is that the teachings of Pastor Murray are robbing this man of his "blessed hope." Christ gave him the information he needs to have this "blessed hope," and the information the Lord furnished is being explained away to the satisfaction of a student of Shepherd's Chapel. Father, help this man to recognize the truth in the Bible when he reads it. In Jesus' name, Amen. Agape

Incoming email

After reading Pro&Con 672, I'm confused.
Who, exactly, is left to repopulate the world during Jesus's 1000-year reign and who will be ruled over by the saints? If the heavens and the earth pass away during the Day of the Lord, who will have physically survived to go into the millenium on earth?

I always thought that the heavens and earth pass away AFTER the millenium and a new heaven and earth are created after Satan is finally destroyed.

My reply

> > I always thought that the heavens and earth pass away AFTER the millenium and a new heaven and earth are created after Satan is finally destroyed.

I used to think the same thing. That was one of my views I had to change after more intensive study showed me that view just might not be right. The problem is that when I read Rev. 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea," it followed 20:15, which dealt with the casting into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium. Also, if there is no more sea, it becomes something we can't relate to in this watery world. People need water. Plants need water. We know that both will be on Earth during the Millennium.

I have come to think that the new heaven, new Earth and New Jerusalem have been misunderstood. I think that New Jerusalem is a sphere (length, breadth and height equal) and that the heavens and the earth are renewed in freshness after the asteroid impacts. The sea is a symbol of the nations, especially of the One World Government and UN. Rev. 17:15 says, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Rev. 13:1 says, "I stood upon the sand of the SEA (nations, 'Holy See'), and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." The Beast rules on land. The sea is symbolic.

Psa. 104:5 says, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that IT SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED FOR EVER." This planet is here to stay, but it has to be renovated sometimes to make it a fit habitat for mankind. I happened in Gen. 1:3-25 and may have happened again to a certain extent after Noah's Flood. Psa. 102:25,26 says, "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the EARTH: and the HEAVENS are the work of thy hands. They shall perish (abad, fail, wander away, i.e., grow old), but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall WAX OLD LIKE A GARMENT; AS A VESTURE (coat) SHALT THOU CHANGE THEM, and THEY SHALL BE CHANGED." The blast-damaged atmospheric heavens and the fractured and scorched Earth will need to be renewed after the asteroid impacts.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is when he is revealed to us. It is written as if the Rapture was "at hand," maybe 10 days beforehand, on Ascension Day (2:10). The Rapture is "at hand" in both the 1st and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." Rev. 22:6 says that the Lord God "sent his angel to shew unto his servants THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE," echoing 1:1, which says, "to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS." Most of Revelation is due to be fulfilled shortly once the Rapture is "at hand." Only a few necessary things are included to show what happens after the Millennium.

Chapter 20 starts with Satan being chained near the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord. Then we read about the First Resurrection. This section ends with those of the First Resurrection reigning with Christ 1000 years.

Rev. 20:7-15 gives us some quick information about the time "when the thousand years are expired." Then chapter 21 continues with the beginning of the Millennium that follows the First Resurrection.

We are at a disadvantage reading the Bible in a translation. The original words convey the truth, and sometimes, we need to look them up to fully understand a passage.

Remember that the Earth has been severely damaged by the asteroid impacts as the Millennium began (Rev. 8:8,10). A portion of the atmosphere has been destroyed. Every wall has fallen in the worldwide Earthquake (Eze. 38:20; Rev. 16:18). II Peter 3:10-13 says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the HEAVENS (atmospheric) BEING ON FIRE (Heaven is not on fire, some of the atmosphere is) SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the ELEMENTS (near impact sites) SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new (kainos, new in freshness, i.e., newly made, not created, as in Gen. 1:3f) heavens and a new (kainos, new in freshness) earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." Righteousness dwells on Earth during the Millennium.

Rev. 21:1-8 says, "I saw a new (kainos, new in freshness) heaven and a new (kainos, new in freshness) earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (PARERCHOMAI, CARRIED PAST THEIR PRIME, NEGLECTED); and there was no more sea (symbol of nations, Rev. 17:15, i.e., no more One World Government or UN). And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW (kainos, new in freshness, i.e., renewed). And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. HE THAT OVERCOMETH SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS (during the Millennium); and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. BUT the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL (after the Millennium) have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Psa. 104:29,30 says, "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: AND THOU RENEWEST THE FACE OF THE EARTH" (not the entire Earth, but the FACE, or surface, of the Earth). This is necessary because in the catastrophe, all green grass was burned, a third of the trees were burned, the water was poisoned, the Mediterranean became a dead sea, etc.

Isa. 51:3 says, "the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will MAKE her wilderness LIKE EDEN, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody." The Mediterranean Sea will be healed (Eze. 47:8-10).

We have heard that there will be no sea so long that it is hard to forget it. However, during the Millennium, the Lord "shall have dominion also FROM SEA TO SEA, AND FROM THE RIVER (Euphrates) UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH" (Psa. 72:8). When Ezekiel describes the bornders of Israel during the Millennium, both the "EAST SEA" and the "GREAT SEA" are mentioned (Eze. 47:18,20).

Before Adam, I think an asteroid damaged the face of the Earth. It was renewed atmospherically and on the face of the ground, Adam was placed upon it, then 40 years went by before he was cast out of Eden. In our days, we seem to have the mirror image. Forty years after 1967, I think an asteroid will damage the face of the Earth. Both the atmospheric heavens and the Earth will need to be renewed for the people that will live on Earth during the Millennium.

Isa. 65:17-21; 66:22-24 speaks of the Millennium. It says, "behold, I create NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them...For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

At the beginning of the Millennium, not all people will die, although the number will be so few that a child can write it. Isa. 10:19 says, "the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them." At the Judgment of the Nations, the sheep will live on into the Millennium, but the goats will not (Mt. 25:32f). Also many of the Israelites will be put back on Earth. Daniel will stand in his lot in Israel on the 1335th day from Mid-Trib (Dan. 12:13). Agape

Incoming email

Do you think either of these scenarios is possible?

1. Rapture without the person raptured knowing it. They would unknowingly find themselves in a heaven that resembled their similar surroundings, with memory of those left behind erased. To ease the shock of translation in this case, heaven initially would be programmed to resemble their situation on earth.

2. Rapture of a person, and all record of their life and memory of them being erased from those that remain behind. This would be as if they never existed, therefore would not be missed.

There is precedent for memory being erased, as at conception we have our memory of our supernatural origin erased once we are placed in the fetus that grows into our bodies.

My reply

From the account of the rich man in Hades in Lu. 16:19f, those that have gone beyond still have their faculties, including memory. From Psa. 40:1-3, many will see the Rapture take place, fear, and trust in the Lord. I see nothing that would indicate that the memory of the Raptured ones would be erased. The memory of them would push the unsaved to accept Christ....Agape

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