Pro and Con 684

Posted 2-5-01

Incoming email

This is my other question about Daniel. The latter part of chapter 11 I follow real well, but the first 18 verses I don't quite understand. According to Daniel 10:14, this vision elaborated in chapter 11 is "what will befall his people (Israel) in the latter days". I know it might be asking a lot, but I would love to hear you do a verse by verse dissertation of verses 2-18. Who are the 3 kings in Persia, the king of the North and the king of the South? The verses after 18 seem to center on the False Prophet (v. 31 describes the abomination of desolation). When does this first part of the chapter occur...after the tribulation begins? Any input you can give on this chapter (especially the first half) would be appreciated. Your brother in Jesus

My reply

> > I know it might be asking a lot

:-) Yes, this is a hard passage to explain without a library of history books. I'll try, but I am no authority on this. I don't have every detail either. First let me sketch the end time, which I understand better, then I'll go back to Dan. 11:2-18 and give you what I can.

In Dan. 10:14, Daniel was told, "I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days." What we have to remember is that the whole passage is not about the latter days. Just as Jesus went into other things before finally answering the question about the sign of his coming and of the end of the age in Mt. 24, Daniel 11 covers the ground all the way from Darius to the False Prophet. It finally does explain the latter days.

Verses 36-45 are definitely about the False Prophet. Before that is past history. However, since the past history can be a type of the end times, we get flashes of insight into the final fulfillment planted in history, especially when it starts to talk about Antiochus Epiphanes in v. 21. From there through v. 36, it is as if the view blends from Antiochus Epiphanes to the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18. The transitional verse that introduces "THE TIME OF THE END" is v. 35. It says, "some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is YET for a time appointed."

THE TIME OF THE END is the last 1260 days of the Tribulation, but it gets shortened to 1040 days for the elect (Dan. 8:13,14, Mt. 24:22), and the False Prophet is also deposed from office on the 1040th day, which is the 2300th of the whole Tribulation. This TIME OF THE END is 3.5 years, the Great Tribulation, that dates from the time Satan enters into the False Prophet and sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4) and places the abomination of desolation (an idol) at the temple Mid-Trib.

In other words, THE TIME OF THE END itself has an END on the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14). That final day is called "THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION" in Dan. 8:19. We can see this in Dan. 9:27: "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (of years, the Tribulation): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (because he desecrates the temple), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation ('THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION,' the day of Jacob's Trouble, the 2300th day of the Tribulation), and that determined (including the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10) shall be poured upon the desolate" (lit., desolator, i.e., the False Prophet). Dan. 11:36 tells us that the False Prophet "shall prosper till THE INDIGNATION BE ACCOMPLISHED."

When "THE INDIGNATION BE ACCOMPLISHED," the False Prophet "shall come to HIS END" (Dan. 11:45, i.e., not his death for he and the Beast are later cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20), but when he is deposed from office, from being head over the UN and the UR). It is the end of his reign. After this, Satan comes out of him and operates on his own as "the eighth" of Rev. 17:11.

Dan. 11:1-21 stretches from Darius to Antiochus Epiphanes. It says, "in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings (Ahasuerus [Ezra 4:6], Artaxerxes [Ezra 4:7], Darius Hystaspes (Ezra 4:24]) in Persia; and the fourth (Xerxes) shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king (of Greece, Alexander the Great) shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven (Greece, Asia Minor, incl. Syria, Egypt and The East were divided to 4 of his generals); and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

"And the king of the south (Egypt) shall be strong, and one of his (Alexander's) princes (Ptolemy Lagidae); and he (king of the north, Seleucus, who had Syria) shall be strong ABOVE him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion. And in the end of years they (successors of Ptolemy Lagidae and Seleucus) shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south (Berenice, dau. of Ptolemy Philadelphus) shall come to the king of the north (Antiochus Theos) to make an agreement (they married): but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times. But out of a branch of her roots shall one (her brother, Ptolemy Euergetes) stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north (invade Syria), and shall deal against them, and shall prevail: And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north (Syria). So the king of the south (Egypt) shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land. But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through (soldiers in the wars fought between Syria and Egypt fought or passed through Israel): then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress. And the king of the south (Egypt) shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north (Syria): and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand. And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it. For the king of the north (Syria) shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches. And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south (Egypt): also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall. So the king of the north (Syria, by this time, it is Antiochus the Great) shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand. But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land (Israel), which by his hand shall be consumed. He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him (Ptolemy Philometor) the daughter of women (Cleopatra), corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him. After this shall he turn his face unto the isles (the Greek isles), and shall take many: but a prince (one of the Scipios) for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him. Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found. Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle. And in his estate shall stand up a vile person (Antiochus Epiphanes), to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."

By the time we get to Dan. 11:31, it is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes, but is almost an exact duplicate of what the final False Prophet will do. Antiochus Epiphanes is a good type. Verse 31 says, "arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." In verse 32, the "people that do know their God (the Maccabees) shall be strong, and do exploits." Verse 35 skips us to the time of the end, and v. 36f is about the final False Prophet.

When the False Prophet comes to the end of his reign, it is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Dan. 11:45; 12:1,2 says, "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to HIS END (end of his reign on the Day of God's Wrath), and none shall help him. And at that time (Day of God's Wrath) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (day of Jacob's trouble), such as NEVER WAS since there was a nation even to that same time (therefore can't be Great Tribulation; it is only one day): and at that time (Day of God's Wrath) thy people (144,000 Israelites) shall be delivered (in the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (the final rank in the 1st Resurrection). Agape

Incoming email

Re: the baby jesus. From: Georgia
Holy smokes!!! Your little Jesus (god? they are so often the same) must have had a really bad day 2 weeks ago when he killed 30,000 Indians inthe earthquake. I guess it was part of his plan. What's interesting is onthe same day if you tuned in one of those religious TV shows you would see a "benny hinn" type healing someone one...probably at the same time the earthquake was killing thousands. Go figure.

How do you manage to keep the faith in light of harsh realism that there is NO proof of justice. Oh, he is a loving God. Tell that to millions who have suffered. You, sir, like the fanatics that have come before you, are fool.

My reply

Georgia, "sir," at least I know better than to call anyone a fool. Jesus said, "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mt. 5:22). That is because calling someone a fool is a sin.

One of the attributes of God is perfect justice. Each will receive exactly what they deserve at the judgment.

Among mankind, there is much that is not just, but with God, that is a different story. He said that the soul that sinneth, it shall die. That is perfect justice meted out by the perfect Sovereign of the Universe. We have no choice in the matter. He decided how mankind would be tested, and his decision stands. We cannot change it. Either we don't sin--ever--not once, or we are lost and in need of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:35 says, "let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST." Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

I am able to keep the faith because I know beyond the slightest shadow of doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. II Cor. 5:19 explains that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

In Old Testament times, he was the LORD of hosts. In New Testament times, he is the same LORD of hosts in the human body of Jesus. Isaiah 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (LORD the King of Israel), AND I am the last (LORD of hosts, the redeemer, Jesus Christ); and beside me there is no God."

AT Mount Sinai, the LORD, king of Israel (the Pre-incarnate Christ), gave Moses the laws by which Israel should live. They disobeyed, made a golden calf and worshipped it. There "fell of the people that day about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:28). Man that does not accept Christ as their own personal Saviour must obey the LORD totally or suffer the consequences.

One whole generation of Israelites died off in the wilderness, because they didn't trust the Lord to give them the promised land. Their children were the ones to inherit the land. The older generation that died off were counted. There were almost "six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty" (Numbers 2:32) people that died. There were 2 of this number that believed the Lord, Joshua and Caleb. They lived and Joshua led the children into the promised land. The Lord is to be obeyed.

Among man, "there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Psalms 14:3). "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, all men and women are in need of a Saviour. The only way to be saved is to accept Christ as your own personal Saviour. Romans 10:9,10 tell us how to be saved. It says, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

At that point, all the old sins already committed are wiped off the books. We get a fresh start. Any sins committed after that point need to be confessed to God so he can cleanse us from all unrighteousness "(I John 1:9).

Make no mistake, the wicked will be punished at one time or another. The leaders in that part of India had said that if Jesus appeared, they would kill him again. They persecuted Christians and raped Nuns. Are those things to go unpunished?

Here is an email I received from a Christian, a native of India living in India. He tells of the atrocities against Christians.
---
THE EARTHQAKE IN INDIA

Dear mrs.marilyn. hi its me ---- from india. You might have heard of the terrifying earthqake to hit the city of ahemedabad capital of india's hindu fundamentalist ruled state of gujarat. one of the country's leading industrial zones. This state has been in focus in the news always many christians were tortured and killed here for their faith...

just recently CHURCHs were burnt. Nuns were raped. bibles were burnt christian pastors were beaten up. Churches descerated with pagan idols. this was just few of what happend to the christian minority living in that state.

God showed his judgment. the bishop of ahmedabad was arrested and put to jail. immdieatly after that Judgment came on REPUBLIC DAY OF INDIA 26 january. the day when the indian constitution declares all religions to be equeal and to be treated with dignity. it seems the present state goverment who is a ally of the fundamentalist national goverment forgot that

On morning the most powerful earthqake to hit modern india struck straight at the capital of that state. the entire city was reduced to dust killing more than 20 000 and the death toll is rising sharply. as 100 000 people are believed to be buried. most killed are hindu supporters of the RSS fundamentalist party. It was a terrifyings ight as many families were wiped out. Gujarat has been judged by God for its atrocities commited against innocent minority christians....

God did call to them using jesus's name..but they did not respond. there was a statment from the ruling party of the state that "we will kill jesus again if we see him" this was the coments that come out of the mouth of senior government officials. and no wonder people vote for them and bring them to power.

God's judgment direct against the people itself. They remiand indifferent when so many innocent christians died painfully. so many churchs burnt. bishops arrested and thrown in jail. bibles burnt. nuns raped. Christians threatend. evanglists stoned.

it has not happend in our state. but it did take place there. in our state indifference to God is growing fast. money is pouring in making people more and more arrogant and against God along with this pagan religion that rules india. hinduism.

The majority of the people who died were industriel. middle class workers. engineers doctors all perished in a matter of minutes in a quake....whose epicenter began in the tear filled christian victims of india. in Christ
---
I would appreciate hearing from you again, and knowing what you think of these atrocities against Christians. Do they deserve punishment or not? Agape

Incoming email

RE: Pro&Con 682
You stated:
Those saints, small and great, are in Heaven 7 months BEFORE the Second Advent. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD."

I have several questions: Since ALL the saints are in heaven, who is left to do the burying? The wicked who survived? Aren't the survivors supposed to be few and far between? Please expend on this.

Also what happens during the 1000 year reign of Christ? Are the wicked who physically survived going to be destroyed at the Judgement? Are any wicked going to be in the Kingdom? If not, why do the saints need to be ruled with an "iron hand" and why would they be threatened with no rain if they do not come to Jerusalem to worship Christ? It seems to me that the saints would not need a threat.

During the 1000 year reign, what is the life-span of this population?

If the saints are ALL saved, but some of them (Israel) will physically live on earth during the 1000 year reign, why would some of them turn to Satan when he is let loose for a short time at the end of the 1000 years?

Please find the time to answer these questions because they are clouding my understanding of the Day of the Lord. Thanks

My reply

> > Since ALL the saints are in heaven, who is left to do the burying? The wicked who survived? Aren't the survivors supposed to be few and far between?

The survivors are so few that a child could write the number, but there will be survivors. All Israel is saved in the day of the catastrophe, but many of them after the Rapture. The 144,000 Israelites are part of the Rapture though. Isa. 66:8 says, "shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." In Zech. 13:9, the LORD said, "I will bring the THIRD PART THROUGH THE FIRE, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Throughout the Earth, the dead go unburied, but in Israel, the third part that live through the catastrophe will bury the dead to cleanse the land for the return of Christ.

> > what happens during the 1000 year reign of Christ? Are the wicked who physically survived going to be destroyed at the Judgement? Are any wicked going to be in the Kingdom?

At the Judgment of the Nations, the sheep will live on into the Millennium, the goats will be cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt. 25:41). There will be wicked, for that is inherent in man's fallen nature. Man fails his test in every dispensation, the Dispensation of Kingdom too--even with a perfect King and a perfect environment.

> > If not, why do the saints need to be ruled with an "iron hand" and why would they be threatened with no rain if they do not come to Jerusalem to worship Christ? It seems to me that the saints would not need a threat.

Do saints today have no sin? or are they constantly having to confess their sins? As long as man has a sin nature, he is apt to sin. During the Kingdom, sin will not be tolerated as it is today. Man will be tested under perfect conditions and with a perfect King. He will be expected to obey perfectly, and still he will fail. God will be proving that there is something that was damaged when Adam sinned. This propensity to sin is passed down man to man. That is why Jesus was born of a virgin. He had no sin nature that way.

> > During the 1000 year reign, what is the life-span of this population?

A child will die a 100 years old is about all I can tell you. With the environment refreshed, man will live longer, but whether it will be as long as in Adam's day, I don't know.

> > If the saints are ALL saved, but some of them (Israel) will physically live on earth during the 1000 year reign, why would some of them turn to Satan when he is let loose for a short time at the end of the 1000 years?

Because of man's sin nature, there are those that do not want to be ruled by Christ. Satan will delude them. They will mistakenly think they can beat Christ, but that is wishful thinking. No one can beat God. Agape

Incoming email

I want to ask this question as kind of a proof for your idea that we can know the time of the rapture.

When Jesus was here on the earth - before he died and resurrected - he was in a flesh body. This body was subject to all the same emotions as we are, the same ability to feel pain as we can. With that being true, wouldn't He also have had the ability to sin if he had chosen to. Now don't get me wrong, please. When He went into the wilderness and was tempted by satan for 40 days, wouldn't it have been stupid for satan to waste his time trying to tempt the Lord if he already new He wasn't capable of sinning. Could Jesus have disobeyed the Father and chose to try and save His own neck if He wanted to.

Now here's my point. If Jesus left His diety and was "made a little lower than the angels"( who I might add are created beings)then, at the time that He said no man knows the day or the hour it certainly did include Him(i.e. not even the Son) because at that time He was devoid of His abilities as God and was operating through the power of the Holy Spirit, just as we are now called to do. But when He rose from the dead, He took His God-part back to Himself and now being omniscient again, He knew the day and the hour. To me it just stands to reason, since He was born of an earthly mother He would be capable of sin( as in Adam all sin) but with God as His Father He was able to utilize to the fullest extent the power of the Holy Spirit. I hope I don't sound too goofy on this but I know you have studied His Word alot more than I have and I just want to move as close to truth as is humanly possible. I agree with you that we are commanded to watch and "look up". But if we can't know the timehow would we know when to look up. The word says "as we see the day approaching". Don't we have to have a day in mind to actually see it approaching. Well, enough of my rantings. I enjoy your website so much and I thank God for you and your humility. Much Love

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

> > wouldn't He also have had the ability to sin if he had chosen to.

I think he could have, but he didn't. He didn't have a sin nature, either, because he was born of a virgin. The part of Adam that was marred when he sinned is passed down man to man.

> > If Jesus left His diety and was "made a little lower than the angels"( who I might add are created beings)then, at the time that He said no man knows the day or the hour it certainly did include Him(i.e. not even the Son) because at that time He was devoid of His abilities as God and was operating through the power of the Holy Spirit

I don't think Jesus left his deity. Many times, he showed that he was omniscient and omnipotent. He knew what people were thinking. He knew if someone had a demon in them. He knew where someone was located at a distance and could heal them at a distance. He walked on water. He stilled the wind and waves. He teletransported the ship about 3 miles to the other shore of Lake Galilee instantly.

> > since He was born of an earthly mother He would be capable of sin( as in Adam all sin)

That's the point.
*Correction: I didn't make it clear what I meant. All men inherit a sin nature from their fathers and pass it on to their children. Women inherit the sin nature from their fathers too, but they do NOT pass it on to their children. That's why Jesus was born of a virgin. He did not inherit a sin nature, because he did not have an earthly father.

*His human body was similar to Adam's before Adam sinned. Jesus is called the "LAST ADAM," but when his two natures are in view, there are differences. I Cor. 15:45-47 explains. It says, "The FIRST MAN ADAM was made a living soul; the LAST ADAM was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN."

> > But if we can't know the timehow would we know when to look up. The word says "as we see the day approaching". Don't we have to have a day in mind to actually see it approaching.

At least, we can see that world events are coming to a head. The Tribulation is near. This makes the Rapture near. Agape

Incoming email

> Could you tell me about the 2 heavens and where I may find it?

My reply

There are 3 heavens. In II Cor. 12:2-7, Paul was caught up to Paradise, the third heaven. It says, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of ME above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

I think the 3 heavens are Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Josephus, a Pharisee priest, indicated that the candlestick represented the planets, including the Sun. He said, "the shaft elevated itself on high from a single base, and spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them...these branches carried seven lamps, one by one, in imitation of the number of the planets" (Ant. III. VI. 7). Before telescopes, only the naked eye planets were seen. Even today, Saturn is considered the outermost naked eye planet. Thus, the candlestick represented Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The western lamp that represented the Sun was always to be kept lit. Saturn was the easternmost planet. Earth was the central light. Agape

   Pro and Con 685   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2001, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 2-5-01