In Re to pro-con 684 I have two questions about what you said.
> > > I don't think Jesus left his deity. Many times, he showed that he was omniscient and omnipotent. He knew what people were thinking. He knew if someone had a demon in them. He knew where someone was located at a distance and could heal them at a distance. He walked on water. He stilled the wind and waves. He teletransported the ship about 3 miles to the other shore of Lake Galilee instantly.
I thought Jesus did all these miracles by the power of his father just like all the prophets since he became man. If He arbitrarily went back and forth between exercising his powers as God then not exercising them, that would open a big can of worms. Did He really suffer or did He turn the suffering off? Did he really know the day or not? He grew in wisdom but God knows all. Help me out.
The next question:
> > > That's the point. All MEN inherit Adam's sin nature. Women do not. That's why Jesus was born of a virgin.
You must have mis-spoken. All men and women inherit the sin nature, if not then it would be possible for some woman somewhere to have not sinned but that is impossible for all have sinned. Also am I to understand that men have original sin but women do not? Please help straighten me out. Agape
> > All MEN inherit Adam's sin nature. Women do not.
I didn't say what I meant. Sorry. I just finished posting a correction. Here it is:
I didn't make it clear what I meant on P & C 684. All men inherit a sin nature from their fathers and pass it on to their children. Women inherit the sin nature from their fathers too, but they do NOT pass it on to their children. That's why Jesus was born of a virgin. He did not inherit a sin nature, because he did not have an earthly father.
His human body was similar to Adam's before Adam sinned. Jesus is called the "LAST ADAM," but when his two natures are in view, there are differences. I Cor. 15:45-47 explains. It says, "The FIRST MAN ADAM was made a living soul; the LAST ADAM was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN."
> > I thought Jesus did all these miracles by the power of his father just like all the prophets since he became man.
He is unique, a prophet certainly, but much more than that, and not like any other prophet. It just happened that the verse I quoted above states it point blank. He is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. Probably the first thing we will hear him say after we get to Heaven is in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:8: "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning (YHVH king of Israel) AND the ending (YHVH of hosts), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY." Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH king of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God. In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning (LORD of the Old Testament) AND the end (Lord of the New Testament), the first AND the last.... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH king of Israel) AND the offspring of David (Jesus)."
The LORD of hosts (the pre-incarnate Christ) always was the one with whom man had to deal. He was the LORD that came down at Sinai, that talked with Moses, that gave the 10 commandments and the Law. Isa. 48:12,13,16-18 says, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I AM THE FIRST, I ALSO AM THE LAST. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear....Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING; from the time that it was, THERE AM I: and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit (the Holy Spirit), hath sent me (YHVH of hosts, the preincarnate Christ). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to MY COMMANDMENTS then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."
No wonder Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is GIVEN (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
Isa. 54:5 says, "thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHVH) of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH shall he be called."
Prov. 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name (YHVH), and what is his son's name (YHVH of hosts, the pre-incarnate Christ), if thou canst tell?"
The Lord from Heaven inhabited the Body of Jesus. That is why Jesus said, "I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30). II Cor. 5:19 explains, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Isa. 41:4 says, "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD (YHVH), THE FIRST, AND WITH THE LAST; I AM HE."
Jesus could speak as man or he could speak as God, but during his ministry, he had all his powers. Col. 2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY." John 3:34 says, "he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." You see, we are given the Spirit by measure.
John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God (the Father) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." When the angel of the LORD came with 2 angels to talk to Abraham, it was YHVH of hosts, the pre-incarnate Christ.
> > Did He really suffer
Of course. Terribly. Just knowing what was facing him would have been awful. Then going through it--I don't know how he did it. He had to really care for us to do it. He didn't have to do it, either. In Scofield's notes, he said that the literal Hebrew translation of Isa. 52:14 is terrible: "So marred from the form of man was His aspect that His appearance was not that of a son of man." The KJV says, "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men."
> > Did he really know the day or not? He grew in wisdom but God knows all. Help me out.
Yes, as the pre-incarnate Christ, he knew the day before the world began. He drew up the plans, set the day before time began. It seems that only his human nature could grow in wisdom. We have to keep in mind that he has two complete natures, his deity and his manhood. Agape
Something was marred in Adam when he sinned. This defect, which we call the sin nature, was passed down to all males. Every human being inherits this defect that gives us an inclination to sin from their fathers. Women have this defect they inherited from their father, but they can't pass it on to their children. That is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin. This way, he did not inherit the sin nature. If he had had an earthly father, he would have had a sin nature like all the rest of humanity.
Man doesn't know everything about Saturn. The Bible shows that it is a rock. Psa. 27:5 says, "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in HIS PAVILION: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall SET ME UP UPON A ROCK."
Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (the Rapture) also out of an horrible pit (i.e., out of Earth), out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was brought up out of a pit with miry clay), and SET MY FEET UPON A ROCK, and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa. 78:69 says that the Lord "built his sanctuary (tabernacle) like high palaces (planets), LIKE THE EARTH" (a planet. What this refers to is the curtain that covered the tabernacle represented the original 10 planets. That is why it was made of 10 widths of fabric and had cherubim embroidered on each of the widths. When the priest sent inside the tabernacle and looked up, the curtain represented the planets in the sky. Satan's planet, Rahab, was split apart and formed our Asteroid Belt, so there are now 9 planets plus the broken pieces in the Asteroid Belt.
Job 36:32; 37:3,18-22 (LXX) says, "He has hidden the light in his hands, and given charge concerning it to the interposing cloud...His dominion is under the whole heaven, and HIS LIGHT IS AT THE EXTREMITIES OF THE EARTH (so his light reaches Earth). Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heavens?...But THE LIGHT IS NOT VISIBLE TO ALL (but it is to some); IT SHINES AFAR OFF IN THE HEAVENS, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north (upward) come the CLOUDS SHINING LIKE GOLD (visible): IN THESE GREAT ARE THE GLORY AND HONOUR OF THE ALMIGHTY" (Christ, Rev. 1:8). Saturn has golden clouds.
Zech 3:9,10 in the LXX says, "I bring forth my servant The Branch. For as for THE STONE which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one STONE are seven eyes (orbs, rings)." According to Josephus, the 1st lamp of the candlestick represented the Sun, the 2nd Mercury, etc. The 7th lamp of the candlestick represented Saturn, which has 7 rings.
Also in the LXX, Job 38:37,38 says, "who is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has bowed the heaven...to the earth (i.e., as viewed from Earth)? For it (heaven) is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, and I HAVE CEMENTED IT AS ONE HEWN STONE TO ANOTHER." In other words, he probably formed it by coalescence.
This rock has rings around it, HALOed be His Name. John said, "there was a rainbow round about the throne" (Rev. 4:3). Ezekiel called it "the brightness round about" (Eze. 1:28).
Heaven's symbol is a sapphire, which means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. Sinai also represented Heaven. It is probably from Sani too. Eze. 1:26 says, "And above the firmament that was over their heads (i.e., farther out in space than the terrestrial cherubim [planets]) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Christ) above upon it."
It may be colder there than here, but we will be changed, so that won't matter. It may be warmer there than the astronomers think too, because it gives off about 6 times the heat it receives from the Sun. Agape
Re: Day of Atonement. That has to do with Israel, not Satan. The whole nation will be saved in a day (Isa. 66:8), on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. They will repent and be accepted on the following Day of Atonement.
> > Daniel's 1335 days, counting from the mid trib event, will land on Hannuka
I think the 1335 days from Mid-Trib end on July 4, 2008 (Tamuz 1, 5768). Hos. 6:3 and Eze. 29:17,21 show that Christ will return to Earth on Nisan 1. After that, he will set up the tabernacle of David, sit and judge (the Judgment of the Nations). He will take dominion away from Satan at the end of the 7 years. Satan will fight. Armageddon will be fought. Then Satan will be chained. After that, Israel will be divided by lot. Daniel will stand in his own lot on the 1335th day. Surely, that day could not possibly be the 25th day of the 9th month (Kislev 25) when Christ returned on the 1st day of the 1st month.
De. 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." Nisan, time of Unleavened Bread, is "HIS SEASON" (Ex. 13:10).
Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts Tishri 1 (First Advent). The latter rain starts Nisan 1 (Second Advent).
Eze. 29:17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month" (Nisan 1, Eze. 45:18,21; 1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year). Then v. 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." Agape
I always assumed that when the bible speaks of "men", it refers to both genders. Now, I suspect what you say is valid because Eve was deceived while Adam sinned willfully. But how does this play in the big picture? If having a sin nature predisposes one to sin, are you saying that Eve's female decendents are not predisposed to sin? If they are not predisposed, then they can, of their own free will, choose not to sin. Yet, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).
Are you saying that if females sin as a result of deception it is not counted against them? Or are you saying that it is just harder for females to sin? Or do they sin ONLY because/when they are deceived? I am becoming very confused as to the relationship between "free will" and "sin nature". Hurry, what say you?
Are there any biblical passages that clearify any of this? God Bless
> > are you saying that Eve's female decendents are not predisposed to sin?
No...think a minute. ALL WOMEN HAVE A SIN NATURE. Why? Because they each have an earthly father. They just don't determine the sex of a child or pass on the sin nature to a child. Children inherit those things from their fathers only. This way, Jesus could be born of a virgin and not inherit a sin nature. He didn't have an earthly father to inherit the sin nature from. The rest of us all have earthly fathers. Therefore, we all have sin natures.
There are other things that are only passed down to progeny by one parent. For instance, Retinitis Pigmentosa is passed down through the females, but it only causes blindness in males. Strange, huh?
> > Are you saying that if females sin as a result of deception it is not counted against them?
Noooooo. Sin is sin. Even the thought of it is sin. God just knew how to keep Jesus from having a sin nature. He arranged to have that trait passed down the line to all children through their fathers. It looks to me like Eve (after sinning) and Mary both had sin natures. They just had no way to pass that down to their children. The fathers passed it down the line....
We look at the signs of the times and say it's near but weren't those same signs on earth for many years. I saw a T.V. show the other night that said everything was right for the Rapture in the year 1000.
I am very confused. Sometimes I question the existence of God--- his promise for resurrection--- and living forever in paradise.
Facing death I want very much to believe there is something for me after that. I pray for guidance from God but I don't seem to be any better off regards my confusion. Can you help, please.
The Bible is 100% true. Jesus is the only Saviour, and he said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (YOU) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). From the moment of Salvation, the body may die, but your soul and spirit, the real YOU, will never die. You will get a resurrection body too.
Second, James 1:5-7 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. BUT LET HIM ASK IN FAITH, NOTHING WAVERING. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." Ask in complete assurance that you will receive. If you don't waver, "IT SHALL BE GIVEN." That is a promise.
When we are saved, all our old sins are wiped off the books. All known sins after Salvation need to be confessed. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." When we are sin free, the Holy Spirit wells up within us like a fountain of living water. We are in fellowship with our holy God. The sin barrier is no longer coming between us and God.
When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are counted as wise virgins, ready to go with the Bridegroom (Christ) when he comes for his Bride. Our lamps are lit when we accept Christ. He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit right then. That seals us till the day of redemption. On down the line, when all sins after accepting Christ are confessed, we are counted as wise virgins who have extra oil (Holy Spirit) in our vessels (bodies). We are ready for the Rapture.
> > We look at the signs of the times and say it's near but weren't those same signs on earth for many years. I saw a T.V. show the other night that said everything was right for the Rapture in the year 1000.
There was no way for all the signs to be right before Israel was back in the land. That happened in 1948. She fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34 when she grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank) in the Six-Day War of 1967. Verse 34 says, "Verily ( lit., Amen, so be it) I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled." Those things in Mt. 24:27-31 all will come to pass on one day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. They have to come to pass before "This generation" is over.
We know from Mt. 23:36 that "this generation" is 40 years. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in 30 AD, and said, "All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION." They did, in 70 AD.
In our days, 1967 + 40 = 2007. All those things in Mt. 24:27-31 should come to pass in 2007. Verse 29 says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." This takes place when the 6th seal is broken on the Title Deed to the Earth. Rev. 6:12,13 says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." When this happens, the smoke will be rolled aside like a scroll, men will look up and see Christ sitting on his throne. This is the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30. At that time they will say "to the mountains (asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
From Joel 1:15; 2:1-3, and many other verses, we know that the Day of God's Wrath will be on the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). I think "All these things" of Mt. 24:27-31 will be fulfilled on that day.
The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add the 7 good years preceding the Tribulation and the 7 bad years of the Tribulation, as when Joseph was in Egypt, and you come to Sept. 13, 2007. The Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Add the 7 good and 7 bad years, and you get Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. This smacks of something that God would arrange as a sign that the fulfillment of the prophecies of Mt. 24:27-31 would come true on that day. It agrees with all the scriptures that show that the shortened Tribulation will end and the millennial Day of the Lord begin on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1).
The 7-year Tribulation is to be shortened for the elect's sake or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:22). The Jews will be allowed to sacrifice during the first half of the 7-year Tribulation. Mid-Trib, the False Prophet will desecrate the temple, and the sacrificing will stop. Dan. 8:13,14 tells us that those days when they do sacrifice plus the days that they don't add up to 2300 days. These 2300 days are the shortened Tribulation.
If we start with Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) and count backward, using Jewish inclusive reckoning, we find that the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 (the Tribulation) appropriately starts on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost May 28, 2001.
The last book in the Bible is The Revelation of Jesus Christ. He is revealed to us at the Rapture. Revelation is written as if the Rapture is at hand, probably on Ascension Day, 10 days before the Rapture (Rev. 2:10). The Rapture is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." The Rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1. John is one of the 24 elders seated on thrones and wearing crowns in 4:4. Therefore all the elders, the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles, will be caught up when John is caught up. In Rev. 4:1, Jesus said to John, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER." Those things that are coming after the Rapture start in Rev. 6, when the 1st seal is broken on the Title Deed of the Earth. Before that, in Rev. 5:9, we see the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation" before the throne just as the elders are. Therefore, the Rapture of all of the wise virgins, the Bride of Christ, will take place before the Tribulation, which starts in Rev. 6. The elders are the Representatives of all the saints in Heaven when Jesus is given the little book, the Title Deed of the Earth. When he breaks the 1st seal, the Tribulation begins.
Since the Rapture is before the Tribulation, and the Tribulation looks like it will begin on Pentecost, 2001, the Rapture should take place between now and the confirming of the peace treaty of Dan. 9:27 on Pentecost, 2001. There is a 2nd Rapture, for the Tribulation saints. I think it will be on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the asteroids impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5). That is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Since the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the same day, Tishri 1, as the wrath, maybe our Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also take place on the same day that the peace covenant is confirmed, but before the confirmation.
II Thess. 2:1-8 says, "NOW we beseech you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (almost all major MSS have Day of the LORD, i.e., the Millennium) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (probably Sept. 13, 2007) shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, the Pre-Trib Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin (the False Prophet, revealed when he confirms the peace covenant) be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (he does this Mid-Trib). Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
"And NOW ye know what withholdeth (the Holy Spirit in believers) that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (as the Tribulation begins). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the Holy Spirit in us) who now letteth will let, until he be taken (ginomai, caused to arise) out of the way (at the Pre-Trib Rapture). And THEN (tote, at the same time, i.e., probably the same day, but right after the Rapture) shall that Wicked (False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
As long as we are here, the False Prophet cannot be revealed. We are "the salt of the earth" (Mt. 5:13). In breadmaking, salt retards the growth of leaven, symbol of evil. Too much salt and the loaf won't rise. Too little, and it will overproof. As long as we are here, the Holy Spirit in us that makes us the salt of the Earth will keep the False Prophet from being revealed. Just as soon as we are caught up to Heaven in the Rapture, the False Prophet can be revealed. He will be revealed when he confirms the 7-year peace treaty.
When the Rapture happens, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (the dead in Christ that come with him from Heaven get their resurrection bodies first): THEN we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these word." (I Thess. 4:16-18).
Get ready and wait on the shout. In his trumpet voice, he Lord will say, "Come up hither," and we will ascend to meet him in the air and be whisked away to Heaven. O glorious day when faith becomes reality.
We can be sure that ascension will take place when we hear "Come up hither." When speaking of God's two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, 3.5 days after they are killed by the False Prophet Mid-Trib, Rev. 11:11,12 says, "And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Agape
I enjoy your website very much. Read it with every new Pro and Con.
Mark 9:23,24 says, "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, LORD, I BELIEVE, HELP THOU MINE UNBELIEF." Agape
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