Pro and Con 690

Posted 2-15-01

Incoming e-mail

Oh you just don't know what you did on this post of yours. You were talking about David and you said he was a man after God's own heart because he studied the Scriptures daily. Marilyn, that's what I do nearly all day, study, study and study. I have two Bible studies and I study and study so I don't give out anything that's not Biblical...I don't want to be in error. I know the admonishment that's in James and I surely don't want to teach anything that's wrong. Oh, I pray I could be a person after God's own heart. He's brought me through so much. and I love Him so much. Thank you so much for your site. I've appreciated it so much and wanted to let you know what joy you brought me today... I pray you and Ed are well. many blessings to you and Ed and your loved ones. In Christ.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. God loves the right attitude, and you have that. If I were the judge, which I'm not, Christ is, but if I were, I'd give you a 10, a perfect score.

Ed is feeling stronger, and I am much more comfortable than usual. It looks like I have finally gotten the right medicines and the right doses to help my muscle pains. Praise the Lord and the people involved. Agape

Incoming e-mail

Re: good post of 5doves tonight
Exclusive from DEBKAFile to Gamla: News and Views from Israel
Since the Likud leader's election victory last Tuesday, Yasser Arafat has taken tangible steps to prepare the ground for the liquidation of the Palestinian Authority established under the 1993 Oslo accords with Israel and the transfer of himself and close clique to Baghdad.

He will leave behind him a newly created "Independent Palestinian authority" that he will rule from the Iraqi capital as PLO chief. In this capacity he will revoke all the American-brokered accords he signed with Israel and accept only the UN's 1947 Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine, as the sole basis for talks on a settlement.

Incoming e-mail

Will you please tell me what this site is all about? It sure look interesting to me.

My reply

It is mainly about Bible prophecy concerning the end times. The Rapture is drawing near. We need to know that and get ready.

We all should take advantage of the chance to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. When we accepted Christ, all our old sins were wiped off the books. Any committed after that need to be confessed. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Then we are as wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit to go with the Bridegroom (Christ) when he comes for his Bride.

Then, we should obey Luke 21:36. Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Agape

Incoming e-mail with my comments interspersed and marked ***

The Days of Noah and the coming Jewish Holocaust, by Richard Vizzutti
http://www.geocities.com/raptureapologetics/JewishHolocaust.html

In an article by Dave Hunt downloaded from Midnight Call Ministries, he states the folowing
The world is pressuring Israel to give more land to the Palestinian Authority, which has not kept one article in the Oslo Accord and violates everything. Nevertheless, somehow the delusion will lead to a guarantee by the Antichrist. I think I can tell you how he is going to be revealed. They are going to come to the point at which they think they have peace and safety. The Bible says of the Antichrist in Daniel 8:25 that "...by peace, [he] shall destroy many." Some may disagree, but I believe the event described in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is the Rapture. I don't think that these passages can be speaking about anything else, because they describe the day when the Son of man is revealed to His own, not to the world. It certainly can't be the Great Tribulation. The Bible says in Matthew 24:37, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

(Vizzutti:) ...Luke. "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

This will take place right after the antichrist sits in the temple to announce to the world that he is not a god, but rather the only God. It's then sudden destruction will come upon Israel like a snare, in fact as the Lord says that they will not even have time to come down from the roof tops. That is how sift the holocaust will come!...

***I don't think the great holocaust comes at Mid-Trib. I think the days of Lot represent the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place on the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation, just before the Wrath of God falls on unbelievers. Luke 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." Likewise, the same day that the Tribulation saints are caught up to Heaven, it will rain fire and brimstone from heaven (Rev. 8:8,10), and destroy civilization as we know it.

It is at this point that I feel the armies of Russia will attack because of the antichrist claiming to be god of the world. My speculation is that at that point Russia will attack with such swiftness that the antichrist will be taken by surprised. In fact in this war he will be killed as they sweep into to the middle east with lightning speed....

***I think Gog's united nations' army will attack Israel as this age ends, not Mid-Trib. God's fury will come up in his face (Eze. 38:18), and the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will fall in the Mediterranean Sea (Zech. 2:4,5; Eze. 38:20) to stop that army.

And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face." Ezek 38:14-18

Notice that the attack comes when Israel is at peace. It's then when Russia will come swiftly into the Holy Land and pass through. The only way that this can be possible is if the antichrist, the protector of Israel, is killed....

What I believe is that he will begin to hear verified reports that the antichrist has now risen from the dead and is gathering his armies together! If this is the case, no wonder the Russian leader will "go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many." Knowing that he is finished, he will go out like a rabid dog ripping and tearing everything in his path.

At this point God himself will come against Russia and destroy her." And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezek 39:6

At this point many will leap for joy, "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" Rev 13:4.

Now that the beast has risen from the dead and proved to the world that he is the God, could it be that the fire God rains down on Russia could be seen as a major sign that the antichrist is God, (not "a" god)?

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." Rev 13:11-13...

***The False Prophet is "another beast," not the first beast killed and brought back to life. Daniel 7:24 says, "the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be DIVERSE from the first, and he shall subdue three kings."

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." To those who do not flee, they will be destroyed.

This is as I say not the Rapture of the Church but the coming holocaust against the Jews. It may be that this may also be a picture of the Rapture, but nothing more than that.

***I think Luke 17:37 is talking about the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the 1st day of the Millennium, the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation. Where will the Tribulation saints be taken? "Wheresoever the body (Body of Christ) is (the Bride group was taken to Heaven Pre-Trib), thither will the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together." Isa. 40:31 says, "they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; THEY SHALL MOUNT UP WITH WINGS AS EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

***This is when the Bride is gathered from one end of Heaven to the other, and the Tribulation saints are caught up from the Earth. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

Incoming e-mail

I perceive you are truly a woman of God. I ask you to please pray for me and my family. The Lord will listen to you. I ask for his continued blessings and protection for my children, wife, extended family and myself. I have this feeling of anxiety which is indicating to my spirit and heart that something is about to happen. I apologize to you for sounding so serious and cryptic. May our creator abundantly bless you and your family.

My reply

I prayed for you and your family. Each person should be sure they have accepted Christ as their own personal Saviour. At that point, all old sins are wiped off the books. Any sins committed after accepting Christ should be confessed to God so he can cleanse that person of all unrighteousness (I John 1:9). Then the Holy Spirit will well up from within as a fountain of living water. That person is in fellowship with our Holy God. He/she has the oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies) and are counted as wise virgins waiting for the Bridegroom to come take them to Heaven. Agape

Incoming e-mail with my comments marked ***

From: Jerry: JNe3125114@aol.com
Hi, My name is Jerry and this is my webpage...you are welcome to visit. http://hometown.aol.com/jne3125114/JerrysWebPage.html

***From Marilyn: I found this file of yours:

"Is there a pre tribulation rapture or not?"

Quite simply, there is no pre-tribulation rapture. Those that teach it are equal to being a false prophet by saying that "God said" when there is no evidence that He did. It is a doctrine of false hope designed to ultimately break the will of the believer and to degenerate his faith. A man will not prepare if he senses no danger. I could take a forensic approach and couldn't even come up with enough evidence for a pretrib rapture to even get it into court. This may sound harsh and not exactly what you want to hear but where did Jesus say that He would return twice? One would be a "secret" return which now wouldn't be much of a secret.

***Jerry, take a look at Rev. 5:9. Do you see that there is a group of saints in Heaven there? They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation." They are in Heaven when the 24 elders are in Heaven. The elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles. When John is caught up to Heaven, the other 23 elders are caught up too. They sit on thrones in Rev. 4:4. When the 24 elders (all Israelites) are caught up, these saints out of EVERY NATION are caught up too. The elders are our Representatives before the throne of God.

***These elders and saints are in Heaven BEFORE Christ is given the little book, the Title Deed of the Earth. They are in Heaven BEFORE the first seal is broken on the Title Deed in Rev. 6. They are therefore in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation begins, BEFORE the Beast rides forth on a white horse as a prince of peace.

***Not only are these saints out of every nation, they have ALREADY BEEN MADE kings and priests unto God, and shall reign over the Earth during the Millennium (Rev. 5:10).

***Who are these "redeemed" saints out of every nation if there is no Pre-Trib Rapture?

The major teachers of this false doctrine declare imminancy as the key to the whole doctrine.

***I don't think the Rapture is imminent. I think that is a man-made doctrine. I think the time was planned before the world began.

Note also that the word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible and for good reason, it doesn't exist. Actually it is so simple a child could see it.

***You are welcome to use the Greek word "harpazo" in I Thess. 4:17 if you don't like the English word Rapture. "Harpazo" means to be caught up with force. It was translated in my Latin Bible by "rapiemir." This comes over into English as Rapture.

One of the classic rapture passages. Here is the passage, Paul said it all right here: 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

***You are to be commended. You have found the passage that tells us that there will be a 2nd Rapture. It is at the LAST trump of God (not the 7th trumpet judgment sounded by an angel). For it to be the last trump, there has to be a first trump. The first "trump of God" sounds at the 1st Rapture, in I Thess. 4:16.

***We have just seen the saints out of every nation in Heaven right after the first Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are there in Rev. 5:9.

***Now for the second group of saints, the ones that are caught up at the "last trump." Take a look at Rev. 7:9 and 14. This is "a great multitude...of all nations" too. Verse 14 tells us that "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They have the foolish virgins that got left behind the first time in their ranks. Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

***Please don't get left behind to suffer with the UNBELIEVERS during the Tribulation. Believers don't have to suffer with the UNBELIEVERS, but if they are not ready when the Bridegroom comes, they will suffer with the UNBELIEVERS during the Tribulation.

***Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:13,14) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

***Did you notice that the group that are to be raptured out of the Great Tribulation have washed their robes in the blood of Christ to make them white? That is because they were foolish virgins. They did not have enough of the oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies) to go with the Bridegroom when he came for his Bride. It took the Lord's chastening (Rev. 3:19) during the Tribulation to get them to repent and confess their sins so God could cleanse them of all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

Firstly, this is the resurrection. The dead rise first (resurrected) those that remain are transformed. They are transformed because they can't enter heaven in the flesh. So rather than God just killing them He transforms them on the spot...they shed their bodies. Then Paul goes on to say WHEN this is going to happen. At the LAST TRUMP. There is no hidden meaning to this or he would have just said TRUMP, but he did not, he said at the LAST TRUMP.

***You missed the hidden meaning. He said "LAST TRUMP," because there is a FIRST TRUMP OF GOD (I Thess. 4:16).

When is the LAST TRUMP? Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What does the seventh angel sound? A trumpet. The seventh angel is the last one.....the LAST TRUMP.

***You mixed up the clues. The trumps at the Raptures are the trumps of God (I Thess. 4:16). These judgment trumpets are sounded by angels, not God.

***Isa. 18:3-6 says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he (the Lord) lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (nations, i.e., the united nations); and when HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (see) in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest (the Pre-Trib Rapture). For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both CUT OFF the sprigs (with no fruit) with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches (with no fruit). THEY SHALL BE LEFT together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts (the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13) of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them (the Rapture is in the spring), and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them."

***When the Lord "bloweth a trumpet, hear ye." This is the call for the wise virgins. There is no time to go buy more oil at this point. You are either ready and go with the Bridegroom, or you are not ready and stay behind with the foolish virgins.

***There is no way that a believer will have to receive the wrath of God. I Thess. 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Even the Tribulation saints will be caught up before the 7 trumpet judgments fall on unbelievers.

***The 6th seal is opened in Rev. 6:12. At 6 PM, "the great day of HIS WRATH is come" (Rev. 6:17). Then in Rev. 7:14, the Tribulation saints are caught up before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. Out of the 7th seal come the 7 trumpet judgments. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is before the wrath of God hits Earth, before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on that Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

***It seems that Revelation is built using circle clocks. Draw a large circle on paper. Label it "70th Week of Daniel." In it draw 6 circles in a ring. Then draw in the 7th circle in the center. Label one of the outer circles of this clock "Seals." Inside the 7th circle draw another circle clock. Label one of the outer circles "Trumpets." In the middle circle, put "Vials." The trumpets come out of the 7th seal. The vials come out of the 7th trumpet.

***The 1st Rapture seems to be on the outermost ring, just before the 1st seal is opened. The 2nd Rapture is in the outer ring of the trumpet clock, but just before the trumpet judgments begin to sound.

***Rev. 8 starts out with silence in Heaven for 1/2 an hour. I think that is when Christ is being seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Just before he is seated as judge, Mark 13:27 will come true. All the saints will be gathered to the assembly. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (gathering those that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

***Rev. 11:18 shows that the elders and the saints, small and great, are all in Heaven receiving their rewards when the wicked on Earth are destroyed. It says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army was attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come (on the Feast of Trumpets), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

***This is to gather those that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Clearly, the antichrist will be here BEFORE the return of Christ, in spite of what pre tribbers say. There are no two-second comings of Christ, no secret appearance.

***II Thess. 2:3's "apostasia" should be translated departure, as it was in early Bibles. It's meaning as falling away is true, the raptured ones will fall away from Earth, but is misunderstood. It's meanings of departure and disappearance (Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek) are understood better. Verse 3 has to agree with verses 6-9. They say, "now ye know what withholdeth (the Holy Spirit in us, the salt of the Earth) that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (the Tribulation). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (Old English for hindereth will hinder), until he be taken out of the way (when the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place). And then (tote, at the same time) shall that Wicked (False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." This Rapture seems to be on the same day that the False Prophet confirms the covenant of Dan. 9:27.

Jesus said what His appearing would be like:

Matthew 24:21-27 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the electís sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

***Verse 28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body, i.e., Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), there will the eagles (Tribulation saints) be gathered together." Isa. 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

That leaves little doubt. The pretrib rapture is based largely on what is NOT said in scripture. No mention of the church after ch.6 in Revelation so the church must be gone. Why must it be gone...just because there is no mention of it? Peter didn't mention the church in two epistles, did that mean it was gone? Their case is weak at best. It can be made to sound good and right, but the devil is a master at that. So they say that the church is gone yet can't really explain why Christians are here during the tribulation and fall under the antichrist. These are saints...saints make up the church. Some say these "saints" are rejects or new converts who must go through great tribulation. I can hardly believe that God is coming to take out an apostate church and put "other" saints in great tribulation. Make no mistake, the "saints" ARE the church. The best that the apostates can hope for is that they will be taken up at all. Jesus called the seventh church in Revelation to repentance because of such things.

***God is not coming to take out the apostates. He is coming to take out the wise virgins who are the Bride of Christ. The foolish virgins will get cut off. Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:13,14) with the UNBELIEVERS." There will be church saints left behind. The Philadelphians go through the open door in Heaven set before them (Rev. 3:8), but the lukewarm Laodiceans are spued out of Christ's mouth" (Rev. 3:16).

Revelation 3:17-19 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

***These are the ones left behind to be chastened during the 2300-day shortened Tribulation.

Those that believe the pretrib lie and don't prepare will be the first to fall because their faith will be shattered, and that is the plan of Satan. Take as many as he can before the return of Christ because at that point he knows it is really close.

***Those that believe you will be in danger of missing the Pre-Trib Rapture, because only those with enough oil of the Holy Spirit will be picked as the Bride of Christ.

As I said, there wouldn't be even enough evidence to bring this to trial. Pretribbers do not have one concrete piece of evidence. I have one. Paul said it would be at the LAST TRUMP. Let the pretribbers explain that away, and they do, but Paul said it nonetheless. Those remaining are the saints who went through great tribulation, pure and simple.

***Moses was told to make two silver trumpets for the calling of the assembly and the journeying of the camps. There will be a FIRST TRUMP and a LAST TRUMP, a Pre-Trib Rapture for the Bride of Christ and a Pre-Wrath Rapture for the rest of the Body of Christ.

***Nu. 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., at the last trump), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet (the first trump), then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the elders), shall gather themselves unto thee." When the elders are gathered, the wise virgins who are the Bride of Christ are gathered. I am waiting for the FIRST TRUMP. You can wait for the LAST TRUMP if you so desire.

The pretrib rapture is based on assumptions and what is NOT said. To put it bluntly, it is not based on anything because there is nothing to base it on. It is a smokescreen, and many will lose their way in the smoke. If the word rapture were in the Bible, or evidence of two comings of Christ, maybe I could fall for it.

***FIRST TRUMP. Christ comes in the air (I Thess. 4:13-18).
***LAST TRUMP. Christ is seen in the air (I Cor. 15:51,52; Mt. 24:30).
***Second Advent. Christ sets his feet on the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:4). The mountain splits.

Let me back up for a moment and prove one more point. Let's take 1 Corinthians 15:52 once more and add : 51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Note in verse 51 the word "mystery." Paul is going to show a mystery. Now backup to Revelation 10:7 again.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The "mystery" should be finished. When? At the LAST TRUMP...the sounding of the seventh angel. THERE IS YOUR RAPTURE! The second coming of Jesus Christ...the resurrection of the saints..........including those who were in great tribulation. You see, it is no mystery, Paul already told us. Satan has only poured smoke over it. Jerry

***At the FIRST TRUMP, I Thess. 4:16,17 will come true. It says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Are your words comforting? No. According to you, we will all have to go through not only the Tribulation, but God's Wrath. What a terrible forcast. There is no comfort there.

***The FIRST TRUMP, Pre-Trib Rapture, will be as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37f). No fire will fall, only rain, symbol of the Spirit of God. Like Noah, the Bride of Christ will float above the Tribulation on Earth.

***The LAST TRUMP, Pre-Wrath Rapture, will be as the days of Lot. Fire will fall. Luke 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." This is on the Day of God's Wrath. The rest of the Body of Christ will be saved so as by fire. No wonder God will wipe away their tears. Agape

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