Pro and Con 697

Posted 2-26-01

Incoming email

From "Unlocking The Mysteries of Revelation Using the Keys of the Feasts of the Lord" (by Carlton & Mineer) in the section on Feast Day of Trumpets I noted the following interesting statements (my additional comments are in bold):

"The kings of Israel gave banquets for the people during the time of the new moon. Those invited attended to demonstrate their loyalty and show homage to the king. It was at this time they received commissions regarding service they could perform for him. His judgement was also sought on matters of dispute among them." The banquet could be the Marriage Supper of The Lamb. Those invited could be the bride. Could this be the time God gives us our role (commissions regarding service) during his Mellenial reign?

"On all other festival days the moon is either full or near full. On this day the moon is hidden (new moon). 'The People of Israel is symbolically compared to the moon and is radient on its Sabbaths and Festivals. On Rosh Hashanah, however, Israel diminishes itself and conceals its greatness in awe of the Day of Judgement. The Almighty, too, places a cover of concealment over His People's sins and accords them forgivness.' For this reason Jewish tradition connects the Day of Trumpets with a period of great distress for Israel."

"A major theme of this feast day is the future coronation of Messiah as King. In Hebrew it is called HaMelech. At this time it is believed Messiah ben David will take his throne. In the temple services Psalms 47, a song of coronation, is read seven times on this day."

"The New Moon of the seventh month is also called Yom HaDin, which in Hebrew means Day of Judgement. It is believed that on this day Messiah ben David as King will assume the throne of judgement. At this time the door to heaven will be opened to receive the righteous."

"...the New Moon of the seventh month is called in Hebrew, Yom Ha Teruah, the Day of the Awakening Blast or Shout. In the Temple, trumpets are sounded all day long."

"The trumpet blown on this day is one of the three trumpets given names in Jewish tradition. This trumpet is known as the Last Shofar."

"Another name for the New Moon of the seventh month is in Hebrew, Chevlai Shel Mashiach, meaning Birthpains of the Messiah. Sometimes this term is also referred to as the Time of Jacob's Trouble."

The two themes, judgement and rejoicing, really stand out for this day in light of these statements. It is amazing to me how much clearer the Bible is when you have some knowledge of Jewish customs and traditions. Things make sense. Why do the Jewish people have such a hard time believing when they have this knowledge as part of their daily life?

I have read somewhere (I can't remember where) that this is the only Feast of the Lord where the exact date cannot be known ahead of time because it is a new moon and two witnesses must view and agree that the new moon has arrived. Could this be related to no man knowing the day? Especially if Matt 24:36 is referring to the time when Heaven and earth pass away (in verse 35) which could be on this day?

Matt 24: 35-36 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." I am praying for you!!!!

My reply

Thanks for your prayers.

> > The banquet could be the Marriage Supper of The Lamb. Those invited could be the bride. Could this be the time God gives us our role (commissions regarding service) during his Mellenial reign?

I think the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place on the same day as the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It is on Tishri 1, which is the new moon, so that fits. However, we are to get our rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

> > Jewish tradition connects the Day of Trumpets with a period of great distress for Israel."

I think they have that right. It will be the worst day since there was a nation. It is the day of Jacob's trouble. Jer. 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." Dan. 12:1,2 says, "at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." First, the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, then the catastrophe. After that but on the same day, the remnant of Israel will all be saved in a day (Isa. 66:8).

> > "A major theme of this feast day is the future coronation of Messiah as King. In Hebrew it is called HaMelech. At this time it is believed Messiah ben David will take his throne. In the temple services Psalms 47, a song of coronation, is read seven times on this day."

They have that right too. Psa. 47 fits perfectly. It says, "O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet (Gog's army will be stopped). He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah (meaning, stop and think of that). God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet ('last trump,' the Pre-Wrath Rapture). Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. The princes of the people are gathered together (the elders, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles), even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted."

> > "The New Moon of the seventh month is also called Yom HaDin, which in Hebrew means Day of Judgement. It is believed that on this day Messiah ben David as King will assume the throne of judgement. At this time the door to heaven will be opened to receive the righteous."

This fits perfectly too. Both the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Pre-Wrath Rapture take place this day.

> > "...the New Moon of the seventh month is called in Hebrew, Yom Ha Teruah, the Day of the Awakening Blast or Shout. In the Temple, trumpets are sounded all day long."

It will be an awakening blast all right. The noise of the asteroid impacts (Rev. 8:8,10) will be heard around the world.

> > "The trumpet blown on this day is one of the three trumpets given names in Jewish tradition. This trumpet is known as the Last Shofar."

Yes. It is the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52, the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > "Another name for the New Moon of the seventh month is in Hebrew, Chevlai Shel Mashiach, meaning Birthpains of the Messiah. Sometimes this term is also referred to as the Time of Jacob's Trouble."

It is the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 12:1,2). It is also the time of birthpains. All the remnant of Israel will be saved that day (Isa. 66:8).

> > Why do the Jewish people have such a hard time believing when they have this knowledge as part of their daily life?

Some do believe. Others have not put 2 and 2 together yet. I keep wondering why leaders in Israel don't read the Bible and see what is going to happen. It is all written down, and they don't see it. They have eyes, but cannot see, ears, but cannot hear. They are even trying to pass a law so that anyone passing out religious literature to try to get a person to change their religion would be put in jail. Blindness in part has happened to Israel that the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in.

> > because it is a new moon and two witnesses must view and agree that the new moon has arrived. Could this be related to no man knowing the day? Especially if Matt 24:36 is referring to the time when Heaven and earth pass away (in verse 35) which could be on this day?

Maybe, but I think no man knew on that day. After the Sign of the End of the Age, we could figure it out. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Fw: Event of February 13th
It was so nice to hear from you again. Below is a post I sent in for tomorrow.
You definitely have something significant in your last P&C. Near the end "something makes me wonder that . . we are in . . . 5761" I have said this before and I mean it, you have a gift for chronology. This is your strongest area, and I can think of no writer anywhere that has the discernment of Chronology more powerful than you.

I want to extend an "olive branch" to you. You know that I can not see the Pentecost Rapture, and I know you have difficulty seeing why I believe Passover is it. May I reach out to you in Agape Love to ask you to agree that we disagree. That is what two Spirit Filled Believers are to do, after all, we are to spend eternity together. Please stick with what you accept and I will stick with what I accept. Maybe both of us are in error! Wouldn't that be a humorous thing to share after we are with the LORD!

I wanted to ask you about 6001.com. I know it has some relevance to the Aviv Barley belief that I accept for the Bride. That is not the question, rather, do you think there is anything to this alternate calendar based on their observations. I think that God would follow the calendar we all know and accept in our daily life right now. I think you would agree. Yet, I keep looking at this 6001.com and thinking. One thing is for sure. The prophecies on the site do not agree with me, and to say that the Tribulation started two years ago is so scripturally wrong (Malachi 4:5).

One last thing. It is only my personal opinion, but don't waste your time with the dissenters. There seem to be more and more of them as our Redemption draws near. God Bless

----- Original Message to: John Tng (5doves site). Re: Event of February 13th

Before I begin, let me state this is NOT a published prediction of the date of the Harvest of the Church. However, there is an implicit reference here, and I encourage all of you to study this.

I want to first lay some groundwork here about the dissemination of information taken from voices and visions. Start with Deuteronomy 18:22. "if the thing does not happen or come to pass . . . the LORD has not spoken". Including the words I am going to write today, I have received nine times of what I would call prophecies, since 1998. Of those nine, three have had ONE verse of scripture given with them. Of those nine, three have come to pass exactly as given, and on the exact date associated. Of the six left, one is personal and not of interest to any person but me. Of the five now left, one is future and may or may not happen while the Church is here. Of the four left, three have been put on file with a reliable Christian witness, who will be my reference in the future. The one left is what I am going to discuss today.

Before I start, I want to state Mark 13:22, 23. The Bible definitely has told us everything we are to be told. NOTHING in any of the nine voices and visions I have had, in any way reveals anything new from Scripture. NOTHING in any of these was false prophecy, although I must point out that some of them have yet to come to pass. For certain, when you read a vision or a voice from ANYBODY, there can NOT be multitudes of Scriptural errors. I do not mean struggling to know the meaning of a verse, but rather many, many, errors which any Christian with a Bible could spot. I have read many posts on all kinds of internet sites during the last few years that failed this test.

One other thing, I have NEVER been told more than ONE sentence in a vision. I am not going to be dogmatic about this point with others, but in my personal experiences, I have NEVER got these paragraph after paragraph oratories that some publish and pronounce to be from the LORD. I never receive any words which are more than very simple nouns and verbs, for example, the book of John is written this way.

A few hours before sunrise on Tuesday February 13th, my physical body was in a lot of very uncomfortable suffering. Every limb, top of my head to my toes. This came out of nowhere, and I was fine before this. While this was going on, a voice spoke to me saying, "your suffering is the same as the Body is to suffer for TEN days during the COMING FEASTS". I was not sick. This was not the Flu. I was very drained of physical ambition after this, and took almost twenty hours to recover. But this was not an illness. This was an event that came and went rapidly.

Some parts of this are absolute. The Body is the Body of Believers, the Church. Ten days is ten days. The coming Feasts (plural and during ten days) can only fit one criteria, the coming Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits. All of these are from Nisan 15 to Nisan 22 Jerusalem reckoning. This is from roughly Sunday April 8th to Sunday April 15th, depending on where you live.

This next five paragraphs of discussion are my "interpretation". I want to carefully distinguish this from the above two paragraphs. I am NOT saying that the LORD told me this interpretation. This is based on my study of Scripture and Prayer. You should do the same study and prayer.

The most obvious parallel to what I heard is Revelation 2:10. This was written to the Church of Smyrna, and it was fulfilled in the terrible persecution of the Church from Nero to Diocletian (TEN intense periods of persecution by TEN Roman emperors from roughly 64AD to 313 AD). The passages that relate to the testing and persecution of Revelation 2:10 are James 1:12 and Matthew 10:22. To the overcomers are promised crowns. Here is an important Bible truth to understand. What the LORD has done, HE will do again. Persecution is coming again for sure in the Great Tribulation, AND it would "appear" that SOME of the Body of Believers are going to be suffering for ten days during the coming Feasts of Passover.

Let's go back to Mark 13. Mark 13:5-23 is during the Great Tribulation. Mark 13:28-31 is about Israel, the 1948 nation birth and the 1967 six day war. Mark 13:32-37 is a commandment for the Body of Believers to watch. In Mark 14:1, we are told these words were spoken two days before the Passover. If we go from two days before the Passover to the end, we have TEN days in total. April 6th to April 15th inclusive. Here is my supposition. Suppose the beast of Revelation THIRTEEN were to appear on the world scene. When the beast appears, he has not recieved any power yet. The beast will be made head of both the "false church" and the world government. AFTER the gathering of the Body of Believers. The beast is NOT the antichrist. There are two DIFFERENT people here. The antichrist is the one who sits in the Temple claiming to be God (the abomination of desolation) in the middle of the Tribulation. The antichrist HAS to be Jewish, and has to have satan himself enter him. The beast will be a charismatic individual who can fill both the offices of world government and world church. Consider that it is entirely realistic for a persecution of the Body of Believers to take place for TEN days from April 6th to April 15th of 2001.

There is an unmistakeable scripture that supports my "theory". In the Bible there is an event stated in Esther 3:12-13. The scripture clearly states that on Nisan 13 that a decree to destroy the Jews is begun. April 6th is that exact date, Nisan 13. I heard the voice speak to me on February 13th. The beast is described in Revelation 13. Three confirmations of 13.

As I said at the beginning, this post was not going to be a prediction of when the Removal of the Church from the earth was going to be. I will let you realize what the rather obvious date being indicated is.

My reply

We can agree to disagree agreeably, but I don't know why you accept Passover as the date of the Rapture. There was no resurrection on that day. The time of figs was not yet. It was still in the rainy season. The scripture in Esther is weak proof. You would have to give me other scriptures before I would believe the Rapture would be on Passover. Even the saints that came out of their graves in 30 AD followed Christ's resurrection. He had to be the first. No vision can have more weight than the Bible. It is the only sure truth we have. If we listen to anything without checking it with scripture, we can miss the mark.

> > I wanted to ask you about 6001.com. I know it has some relevance to the Aviv Barley belief that I accept for the Bride.

The barley sheaf was not waved on Passover. It was waved on Firstfruits. So how do you tie that to the Bride and a Rapture on Passover?

I don't agree with much I see on that site. I don't think Jesus was born on Tabernacles in BC 3. (I think it was Tishri 1 in BC 5.) I don't think the Messiah is to confirm the covenant, and especially don't think he did that in 2000. (I think the Beast and False Prophet will confirm the covenant.) I don't think the Crucifixion was on Nisan 14 in 28 AD. (I think it was Thursday, Nisan 13, Apr. 6 in 30 AD.) I don't think Artaxerses' command to rebuild Jerusalem was in BC 455, or that that plus 483 years would end up on 28 AD (483 - 455 + l because there is no zero year = 29 AD). Agape

His reply, marked ****

Re: Some Thoughts
> > We can agree to disagree agreeably, but I don't know why you accept Passover as the date of the Rapture. There was no resurrection on that day. The time of figs was not yet.

**** Figs are Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 18:4. Jesus Christ is FirstFruits, we agree. There is a FirstFruits of Grain. Grain is both Barley and Wheat. It clearly says in the scriptures, and you have quoted it many times, that the wheat is harvested by the angels. The LORD comes Himself for the Bride. The countdown of the Omer is related to ongoing harvests of grain. The final gathering of the believers is the harvest with the wheat and the tares. There are no tares in the Bride. Even if there were, they are not burned up at the start of the Great Tribulation.

> > It was still in the rainy season.

****I have been watching Jerusalem on CNN for the last year almost every day. As best as I can tell, it has rained twice out of the 300 plus days. As J. Kessel has been standing doing his reports, the weather has been perfect almost every day. They may call it rainy season in tradition, but I don't see why the Spring Feasts are knocked out because of a "rainy season". It's not raining there. That is why there is no water now. The major source of moisture as I understand it over there is dew, lots of dew. It is God's blessing on the nation Israel.

> > The scripture in Esther is weak proof.

****Esther has nothing to do with the Church. Ruth does. Esther is related to the Jews persecution. I first though that the wedding in Esther was related to the Bride, and this was wrong. I quoted this to CAPS, he used it, you quoted, and I withdrew my comment on 5D. I was wrong.

> > You would have to give me other scriptures before I would believe the Rapture would be on Passover. Even the saints that came out of their graves in 30 AD followed Christ's resurrection. He had to be the first. No vision can have more weight than the Bible. It is the only sure truth we have. If we listen to anything without checking it with scripture, we can miss the mark.

**** I agree that no vision can have any more weight. It can never reveal any more than what the Bible already says, because we have been told all things. I am NOT trying to convince you that the Rapture is around Passover, and I know you are not trying to convince me it is on Pentecost. Have a look at your book Revelations 2000, (which is marvelous!) at page 41. You had it right there. The Rapture is on the Lord's Day, which is Sunday. At Pentecost it was Sunday, and that is why the Church has always met on a Sunday. Sunday is NOT a "sabbath day", but Jesus Christ is the LORD of the Sabbaths. Sabbath means rest, and HE is our rest. Pentecost this year is NOT on Sunday, so I have to discard it, according to YOUR correct reasoning.

> > > I wanted to ask you about 6001.com. I know it has some relevance to the Aviv Barley belief that I accept for the Bride.

> > The barley sheaf was not waved on Passover. It was waved on Firstfruits.

****Read carefully what I wrote. I was NOT writing a prediction of the Rapture. I was writing that I have been shown a vision of ten days of persecution of the Body of the Believers, which COULD fit Nisan 13. It is purely speculation for me to say the Rapture is on Nisan 22, because I would be a liar if I said that is what the LORD showed me. What does not make sense to me is to for the Body of Believers to be persecuted for ten days during the Feasts (plural, this is what was said to me), and then we all sit around or something until Pentecost.

> > So how do you tie that (Nisan 13 in the book of Esther) to the Bride and a Rapture on Passover?

****I can't. Re-read my post. That is the speculation part. I don't agree with much I see on that site (6000.com). I don't think Jesus was born on Tabernacles in BC 3. (I think it was Tishri 1 in BC 5.) I don't think the Messiah is to confirm the covenant, and especially don't think he did that in 2000. (I think the Beast and False Prophet will confirm the covenant.) I don't think the Crucifixion was on Nisan 14 in 28 AD. (I think it was Thursday, Nisan 13, Apr. 6 in 30 AD.) I don't think Artaxerses' command to rebuild Jerusalem was in BC 455, or that that plus 483 years would end up on 28 AD (483 - 455 + l because there is no zero year = 29 AD).

**** You are the best at Chronology, and I agree with you. It just does not make sense to me for the Church to follow a calendar based on Hebrew tradition, even if it is correct. The Church does not observe the Sabbath day either.

***Please keep doing all the fine work, it doesn't matter who is right here, we BOTH know we can look back on all this after Pentecost, that I agree with you on 100% Agape to you and Ed from us!

My reply

> > At Pentecost it was Sunday, and that is why the Church has always met on a Sunday.

In 30 AD, the Feast of Firstfruits was on Sunday, Resurrection Day. Add 7 weeks, or 49 days, and you come to the 7th Sunday. Then Pentecost had "fully come" (Acts 2:1) on the 50th day, MONDAY. Sunday commemorates the Resurrection, not Pentecost.

On Resurrection Sunday, they waved the sheaf of barley. Lev. 23:11 says, "ON the morrow after the sabbath (ON Sunday) the priest shall wave it." Verses 15-17 say, "And ye shall count unto you FROM the morrow (not 'ON the morrow,' after the sabbath (i.e., FROM Sunday; Monday would be #1, Tue. #2, Wed. #3, Thu. #4, Fri. #5, Sat. #6, Sun. #7), from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave-offering; seven sabbaths (weeks) shall be complete. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat-offering (meal offering) unto the LORD. Ye shall BRING OUT OF YOUR HABITATIONS two wave loaves..of fine flour (wheat); they shall be baken with leaven (baking kills the leaven); they are the firstfruits unto the LORD." The first loaf could represent those saved on Pentecost in 30 AD. The second loaf might represent those caught up on Pentecost in 2001 AD.

De. 16:9 says, "Seven weeks (i.e., 49 days) shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks FROM such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn" ("thou beginnest" on Sunday, Resurrection Day, Feast of Firstfruits). The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost is the next day, the 50th day, Monday.

> > Pentecost this year is NOT on Sunday, so I have to discard it, according to YOUR correct reasoning.

However, since that, I realized that "the Lord's day" could be "one of the days of the Son of man" (Luke 17:22), which represents the Rapture. Verse 23 says, "as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man." The other day of the Son of man is as the days of Lot (Luke 17:28). It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The Lord's day could be the same as the Day of Christ. Phil. 1:10 says, "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the DAY OF CHRIST." Phil. 2:16 says, "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

Josephus, who was a Pharisee priest, said, "on the SECOND DAY of unleavened bread, which is the SIXTEENTH day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them...they offer the first-fruits of their BARLEY...When a week of weeks has passed over AFTER this sacrifice (which weeks contain forty and nine days," on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost...they bring to God a loaf, made of WHEAT flour" (Ant. III. X. 5,6).

> > It just does not make sense to me for the Church to follow a calendar based on Hebrew tradition, even if it is correct. The Church does not observe the Sabbath day either.

If you are considering Passover (Nisan 14), you are using the Hebrew Calendar. The Bible uses it throughout. Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. The Spirit of Christ fell on the disciples at Pentecost. The first people in the Church were Hebrews. That brings the Hebrew calendar over into the Church era. The Sabbath was a sign between the LORD and Israel. Ex. 31:13,17 says, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you....It is a SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed" (as the heavens and the Earth will be refreshed in the 7th millennium). Eze. 20:20 says, "hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." Agape

Incoming email

You closed P&C 693 with Isa. 57:1,15 as a reference to the rapture. However, from the context of the chapter, doesn't this refer to the righteous being taken away from the evil during the tribulation? "The righteous perisheth..." You translated perisheth (abad) as ESCAPES when isn't the actual meaning to NOT escape, to have no way to flee?

Isn't it during the tribulation, that the saints will be gathered and slain for their righteous faith in Christ, only finding peace in their graves?

This reminds me of Eccl. 4:1-2; "Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of the oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living."

My reply

Gesenius has for "abad," to wander, disappear. Strong's has wander away, escape. For it to mean not escape, there has to be something else added to the word.

> > doesn't this refer to the righteous being taken away from the evil during the tribulation?

Verse 3 shows that the Tribulation is approaching when they are taken away. It says, But draw NEAR HITHER, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore." Agape

   Pro and Con 698   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2001, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 2-26-01