Pro and Con 698

Posted 2-28-01

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In P&C 693 you said - "Those not saved that live through the catastrophe that strikes at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5) on that Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord will be facing the 5 months of torture in Rev. 9. They will indeed be sad."

If both raptures have taken place (the last trump just before noon) then won't the only ones left be the unsaved?

Rev. 9:1-6: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Is verse 4 an indication that there are those who do have the seal of God in their foreheads still on earth at this time? Are the ones with the seal of God the 144,000 who were sealed in Chapter 8? Are they not taken in the pre-wrath rapture? Will others be saved after both raptures?

A related question is - who can be saved after the pre-tribulation rapture with 2 Thess. 2:10-12 in mind?

2 Thess. 2:10-12: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev. 7:9-14: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Is this great multitude that came out of the tribulation the foolish virgins who have washed their robes, newly saved people, or a combination of both. If there are newly saved people in this group, what do you think is the distinction between those who will be caused by God to believe the lie and those who are saved during the tribulation? Thanks, I am praying for you.

My reply

> > If both raptures have taken place (the last trump just before noon) then won't the only ones left be the unsaved?

Momentarily, but some will be saved that day. I said, "Those not saved that live through the catastrophe, " but I'll expand on that a bit. All Israel will be saved in a day (Isa. 66:8), that day, but after after the Lord stops the invading army with the asteroid impacts (Rev. 8:8,10; Eze. 38:20). Eze. 38:23 says, "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and they shall know that I am the LORD." There will also be people classed as "sheep" (Mt. 25:32f) that will live on into the Millennium.

> > Is verse 4 an indication that there are those who do have the seal of God in their foreheads still on earth at this time? Are the ones with the seal of God the 144,000 who were sealed in Chapter 8? Are they not taken in the pre-wrath rapture? Will others be saved after both raptures?

There probably will be some with the seal of God, but every believer was taken up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, including the 144,000. These sealed ones will live on into the Millennium, having missed the Rapture. Psa. 40:1-3 shows that "many shall see it (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." It seems that there will be some saved after both Raptures.

> > who can be saved after the pre-tribulation rapture with 2 Thess. 2:10-12 in mind?

II Thess. 2:9-12 says, "Even him (the False Prophet), whose coming is after the working of Satan (he is Satan-possessed Mid-Trib) with all power and signs and lying wonders (Rev. 13:11-18), And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

We know that a great multitude will be saved during the Tribulation (Rev. 7:9,14), but there will be those that believe not the truth. They will believe a lie, probably that the False Prophet is the Messiah.

When Israel came out of Egypt, the Lord knew that Pharaoh would not believe in him. Therefore, he hardened his heart to bring the Israelites out of Egypt at the exact time prophesied. In the Tribulation, those that have not the love of the truth will be so deluded that they will believe in the False Prophet and receive the mark of the Beast.

Rev. 14:9-11 says, "the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."

> > Is this great multitude that came out of the tribulation the foolish virgins who have washed their robes, newly saved people, or a combination of both. If there are newly saved people in this group, what do you think is the distinction between those who will be caused by God to believe the lie and those who are saved during the tribulation?

The great multitude out "of all nations" (Rev. 7:9) probably includes the 144,000 Israelites, the foolish virgins that were left behind at the 1st Rapture, and others that accept Christ during the Tribulation. I think those that the Lord knows will not believe in him anyway will believe in the lie. The 2 classes of people are those that love and believe the truth versus those "who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thess. 2:12). Agape

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From: CAPS
The phrase "Christ the Firstfruits" is used in I Cor. ch. 15 by the Apostle Paul in describing the ORDER of the Resurrections :

15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept.

15:23-24: But every man in his own order: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Here is what I am convinced is the correct interpretation of these verses. I have only in the last few days had this understanding shown to me. It has taken me several years of trying to understand what these verses are referring to---and only this last week did it become clear.

The THREE orders of the resurrections are as follows:
1) Christ the FIRSTFRUITS
2) Afterwards (Greek word means next in order) those that are Christ's AT HIS COMING
3) Then (Same Greek word that means 'next in order') comes the end...meaning the end of the millenium...when the 'rest of the dead' will be raised.

There are three time periods of resurrection mentioned.

Here is what I now believe they are. Notice that the text describes Jesus as the Firstfruits in verse 20. Yet in considering Leviticus chapter 23 it is clear that the day of Jesus' resurrection was the day the wave sheaf (omer) was offered . It is called the "sheaf (omer) of the "FIRSTFRUITS". In this same section of this chapter, Leviticus 23, a few verses later, the instructions for the Feast of Pentecost are given. Pentecost is referred to , in this chapter, as "the FIRSTFRUITS into the Lord."

Therefore it became at last clear to me that FIRSTFRUITS INCLUDES THE TIME OF THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, called the Feast of Firstfruits UNTIL Pentecost , which is called the Day of FIRSTFRUITS.

Therefore the FIRST order of the resurrection of the Dead , referred to in I Cor. 15:23 INCUDES ALL the FIRSTFRUITS FROM JESUS TO THOSE LATER FIRSTFRUITS RESURRECTED ON PENTECOST.

Why has no one seen this before??? Now the rest of the verse is TOTALLY CLEAR.

"Those that are Christ's at His coming" are those who are in the "2nd rapture/resurrection" at the Coming in Glory at the Feast of Trumpets. These are the ones mentioned in Revelation chapter 20,"who come to life and reign with Christ a thousand years."

Then the FINAL resurrection is the Great White thrown judgement/resurrection referred to in Rev. ch. 20 as "but the REST OF THE DEAD did were not raised until the 1000 years are finished."

There, you have it !!

To emphasize again, the phrase in I Cor. 15:23 "Christ the Firstfruits" INCLUDES ALL the Firsfruits from Christ the first omer until the Final Firstfruits at the end of the counting of the 50 omers , ENDING AT PENTECOST. There is no clearer verse in the scripture about the order of the Resurrections. The proper understanding of this verse is crucial if we are to understand WHEN the Rapture takes place.

This is why Paul used the phrase "Christ the Firstfruits", instead of just saying "Christ." He knew that it was a GROUP of believers that made up the FIRSTFRUITS.

The Church in the New Testament is referred to as Firstfruits in several places including I Cor.16:15 and in James 1:18.

The term "Christ the Firstfruits " includes those FROM the start of the omer count ,starting with Jesus, until the END of the omer count, ending with Pentecost. This period constitutes the Harvest of the Firstfruits.

A look at the instructions given in Leviticus 23 is instructive. Here are the pertinent verses. In reading this chapter you will notice that the Feasts are set apart by the phrase "And the Lord spoke unto Moses, saying..." The instructions for the Feast of Firstfruits and Pentecost are set TOGETHER or BRACKETED by that phrase:

23:9-23: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the FIRSTFRUITS of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame * * day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the FIRSTFRUITS unto the LORD. And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young * * bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Notice the similarities of these 2 Feasts.The Feast of Firstfruits, which Jesus fufilled by His resurrection and ascension, is described as "the sheaf (or omer #1) of the Firstfruits.."

Pentecost's two loaves being waved in the EXACT same manner as the sheaf, are called "the FIRSTFRUITS unto the Lord."

Both Feasts are on the "morrow after the Sabbath", i.e on Sunday. For those who think that Pentecost is always on a set date such as Sivan 6 or Sivan 7, let me point out to you that in the reading of Leviticus 23 that almost every Feast is given an EXACT date on the Jewish calendar EXCEPT THE FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS AND PENTECOST !! Passover is Nisan 14. Unl. Bread is Nisan 15 for 7 days. Trumpets is Tishri 1. Atonement is Tishri 10. Taberancles is Tishri 15 for 7 days.

WHY DID NOT MOSES FOLLOW THE PATTERN AND SAY WHAT DAY PENTECOST WAS ON, LIKE HE DID ALL THE OTHER FEASTS---IF PENTECSOST WAS TO ALWAYS BE ON THE SAME DAY OF THE CALENDAR...FOR EXAMPLE SIVAN 6 OR 7 ??

Also why didn't Moses say that the Feast of Firstfruits was on Nisan 16 as some claim it always is. Why did he say it was to be counted by the method of the "day after the Sabbath" ??

Let me tell you why.Because Firstfruits and Pentecost are floating Feasts that are on DIFFERENT days of the Calendar,not a set date. They are again similar in this regard as well. Since they have to be "counted" they are in one sense the "day that nobody knows." Since they are on the day after the weekly Sabbath, they are BOTH ALWAYS ON SUNDAY, the day of NEW BEGINNINGS.

They are connected to each other by the counting of the omer. They are both called FIRSTFRUITS.

The waving of the sheaf was carried out in the exact same manner as the waving of the two loaves. If the waving of the sheaf pictures the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, them the waving of the two loaves pictures the resurrection and ascension of the COMPLETED FIRSTFRUITS !!

The question is are we a part of the Firstfruits ?

The other question is " What year will the Pentecostal resurrection of the firstfruits take place?" Stay tuned.

My reply

You have done well to see that Firstfruits and Pentecost are connected. Now consider widening the horizon to include the 2nd Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets. Think of this as the time of the formation of the entire Body of Christ.

The 144,000 Israelites are also called "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4), and they are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The entire Body of Christ seems to be "a kind of firstfruits." James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Christ would be the head and the saved would be the rest of the Body of Christ. The whole Body of Christ would be raptured before the wrath of God hit Earth, but it would be caught up in ranks, starting with the Feast of Firstfruits in 30 AD, continuing with the Feast of Pentecost, maybe in 2001 AD, and then the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 AD. These feasts would be fulfilled in order.

I Cor. 15:20-23 says, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ (the Firstfruit and some other Firstfruits, Mt. 27:52) the firstfruits (the Bride of Christ, caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (parousia, appearing, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f, seen the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture).

Ex. 23:16,19 says, "And the feast of harvest (Pentecost), the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field (world)...The first (i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture) of the firstfruits (entire Body of Christ) of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God.

Ex. 34:22 says, "thou shalt observe the feast of weeks (Pentecost), of the firstfruits of wheat harvest."

Lev. 23:17 says, "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD."

Nu. 28:26 says, "Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out."

> > Both Feasts are on the "morrow after the Sabbath", i.e on Sunday.

In 30 AD, Resurrection Day was the Feast of Firstfruits, Sunday. Add 7 weeks and you end up on the 7th Sunday. That is 49 days. Then the next day, the 50th day, is Pentecost, a Monday.

> > Therefore it became at last clear to me that FIRSTFRUITS INCLUDES THE TIME OF THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, called the Feast of Firstfruits UNTIL Pentecost , which is called the Day of FIRSTFRUITS.

Since the 144,000 are also firstfruits (Rev. 14:4), wouldn't the time of the ranks run from the Feast of Firstfruits in 30 AD through the 1st Rapture on the Feast of Pentecost (maybe in 2001) to the 2nd Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets n 2007?

> > why didn't Moses say that the Feast of Firstfruits was on Nisan 16 as some claim it always is. Why did he say it was to be counted by the method of the "day after the Sabbath" ?

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:13).

All the feasts were sabbaths ("holy convocations" days of rest, Lev. 23:37). Josephus, a Pharisee priest, said that the Feast of Firstfruits is "on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them" (Ant. III. X. 5).

> > The question is are we a part of the Firstfruits?

Yes.

> > " What year will the Pentecostal resurrection of the firstfruits take place?"

I hope in 2001. Agape

Incoming email

Re: procon 693
I wish I could afford to buy all my brothers and sisters in Christ computers and Bible software. The very best use to which a computer can be put is the study of God's remarkable word.

You are in the fortunate position of having been grounded and rooted in the Word and in the Scriptures. But let me be cautious and acknowledge that the knowledge of the Scriptures is no substitute for the personal knowledge of Jesus Christ a dreadful thing that may have almost cost me my place among the Wise Virgins.

At the time of this writing, I am so grateful to the Lord for the work that He is doing in me. I have to write to you about this, because I have had a foolish head knowledge of a lot of Scriptural facts for a long time. I'm a fact-freak. I consider the Scriptures to be fact. But knowing the facts isn't necessarily solving the crime so to speak.

Marilyn, I am so thankful to God for you. And I am so thankful to God for His word and the discussion that goes on at the Prophecy Corner Web site. I can hardly wait to see my Savior. Anyway, the original beginning of this letter starts with the next sentence.

Towards the bottom of Pro & Con 693, the following Incoming Email appears:
---BEGIN QUOTE---Re: A Basic Question
Thanks for responding to my question about Rev. 5:9. Actually the previous verse (Rev. 5:8) ends with "...and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." It doesn't actually say that the saints are there in heaven. Are these supposedly prayers made by the saints while they are heaven? Or is this referring to prayers of the saints who are on earth. Or are Christians only called saints after death (I'm not sure exactly how this term is used - please excuse my ignorance)? Actually, this may be answering my own question - I just checked Webster's and it says:

saint n. 1.a. One officially recognized, especially by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration. b. One who has died and gone to heaven. 2. A patient, unselfish, highly virtuous person.

Is the meaning of "saints" in verse 8 the same as 1.b. above. If so, then I think I understand and agree with your conclusion. If not, then I guess I need more evidence. Is the reference to who is making the statements in verse 9 more clear in the original Greek? (I checked Strong's and it seems to support the idea that "saints" here is closer to definition 2. from Webster's).

I think that Rev 4:1 where John is caught up supports your conclusion. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Isn't this representative of the pre-tribulation rapture? John is caught up as we will be and then shown things that "must be hereafter".

Are there other verses that identify those "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" referred to in verse 9 and to verify that they are in heaven before the tribulation begins? I'm not trying to disprove the conclusions you have reached. I'm just trying to make sure I don't jump to conclusions with the first verse that can be shoe-horned into meaning what I want it to mean. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and efforts and if I answered my own question in the first paragraph with the definition of "saint" please forgive my rambling - actually, please forgive my rambling in any case.
---END QUOTE---

I have a literal translation software package that says that in Revelation 5:8 the word translated 'saints' comes from the Greek word 'hagios. The specific reference appears thus:

Strong's Ref. # 40 Romanized: hagios Pronounced: hag'-ee-os from hagos (an awful thing) [compare GSN0053, GSN2282]; sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated): KJV--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

In your reply you mentioned Psalms 16:3, where the word 'saint' is coming from Hebrew reference:

Strong's Ref. # 6918 Romanized qadowsh Pronounced kaw-doshe' or qadosh {kaw-doshe'}; from HSN6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary:

KJV--holy (One), saint.

And the above word comes from Hebrew reference:

Strong's Number: 6942. Transliterated: qadash. Phonetic: kaw-dash'
Text: a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): --appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy(-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify(-ied one, self), X wholly.

So, the word saint is used of anyone who is sacred, clean, sanctified. Through Christ, we are clean, all our sins and impurities are blood-washed.

The Bible does interpret the Bible, though it frequently does it better in Hebrew and Greek.

Agape. Humbly, your brother in Christ, God bless you.

My reply

And God bless you. Thank you so much for sharing this with me. We all must be absolutely sure that we have accepted Christ, no ifs, ands, or buts. Don't take anything for granted. Make sure. When I prayed and told the Lord I accepted Christ as my own personal Saviour, my life changed.

Contact Plus Corp. offers the free Bible Plus program. I love it. I not only can Copy and Paste any Bible verse, I can do a search for every verse that has a certain word or phrase in it. I don't know how I ever did without it, but it wouldn't work on my Mac, just the PC. The URL is: http://members.aol.com/bibleplus

People can look up a verse in several versions at http://www.stg.brown.edu/webs/bible_browser/pbform.shtml

> > Actually the previous verse (Rev. 5:8) ends with "...and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." It doesn't actually say that the saints are there in heaven. Are these supposedly prayers made by the saints while they are heaven? Or is this referring to prayers of the saints who are on earth. Or are Christians only called saints after death (I'm not sure exactly how this term is used - please excuse my ignorance)?

The Bible is written so that the non-believers can't make head nor tail of it. Unless one has the indwelling Holy Spirit, it is so much nonsense. Only the way to be saved is really clear until after one is saved. Then the rest of it opens up to us like a flower in slow motion as we study.

The saints are there in Heaven. Only the saints (believers, whether in Heaven or on Earth) are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." The elders are all Israelites, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. Rev. 5:10 says, "And hast (past tense) made US unto our God kings and priests." Now look at the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:6. There Christ "hath (past tense) made US kings and priests unto God and his Father." The Rapture had already taken place in 1:10 (the Preview) and 4:1 (the actual Rapture in its proper sequence, when the Tribulation is "hereafter").

> > Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Isn't this representative of the pre-tribulation rapture? John is caught up as we will be and then shown things that "must be hereafter".

You have it right. The rest of the elders and Bride group are caught up when John is taken up.

> > The Bible does interpret the Bible, though it frequently does it better in Hebrew and Greek.

Yes. Some things are more obscure in the translations, especially if the translators didn't have a clue to what the passage meant. Eze. 1 comes to mind. It took me many years to figure out what it was that Ezekiel actually saw in his visions in chapters 1 and 10. Agape

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