Pro and Con 706

Posted 3-10-01

Incoming email

Re: resurrection on last day
In the book of John there is a repeated reference to the resurrection "at the last day". I believe the last day is a reference to the last God-day or the 7th thousand-year day, the millennium that Jesus will rule and reign over the earth. The Day of the Lord, in addition to referring to that last thousand year God-day, also refers to the first day of that millennium which is the day that the rapture of the tribulation saints occurs and the wrath of God begins. The order of the resurrection that occurs with that second rapture at the last trumpet (on the Day of the Lord) would seem to fulfill those scriptures that talk about the resurrection being on the last day. And I believe that final rapture will be the latter rain harvesting of a majority of believers that have ever lived.

But how does the order of the resurrection called "the first fruits" in 1 Cor. 15:23 apply to these verses that talk about "the resurrection at the last day", seeing it is 2300 days before the last day begins? Is it an exception to those verses?...like the scripture in Hebrews that says "it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment" which has it's exceptions (Lazarus, Moses, those raptured etc.). Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

> > And I believe that final rapture will be the latter rain harvesting of a majority of believers that have ever lived.

I don't refer to the "last trump" Rapture as the "latter rain harvesting," because the latter rain comes on Nisan 1. The former rain comes on Tishri 1, when I expect the last trump.

> > But how does the order of the resurrection called "the first fruits" in 1 Cor. 15:23 apply to these verses that talk about "the resurrection at the last day", seeing it is 2300 days before the last day begins?

I Cor. 15:21-24 says, "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ (the head of the Body of Christ) the firstfruits (those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (parousia, appearance, the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f, i.e., those caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture). Then cometh the end (of the Millennium), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father."

It was written originally without punctuation. I understand it this way, reading it as if there was a comma after Christ, as you do. Christ was the firstfruit, resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits. We are the first of the firstfruits of what man has sown in the world. Afterward the Tribulation saints are raptured on the day when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen.

Concerning the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/"the feast of harvest," Ex. 23:16,19 says, "the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field (world)...The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God.

It looks like the first trump/first Rapture will be on the first day of the 2300-day shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14), and the "last trump"/last Rapture will be on the last day of the 2300 days.

> > "the resurrection at the last day", seeing it is 2300 days before the last day begins?

John 6:39,40 says, "this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up AGAIN at the last day (there is a first day Rapture and a last day Rapture) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." There is a lot not being said here. The ones that believe and are wearing white robes will be raised up on the first day (I Thess. 4:13-18). The ones that only "believeth on him" will be raised up on the last day, at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52). Agape

Incoming email

Re: the days of the Son of Man analagous to the story or Noah

In P&C 697 you say >>>Verse 23 says, "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man." The other day of the Son of man is as the days of Lot (Luke 17:28). It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

I agree with you that the days of the Son of man refers to both raptures, one as the days of Noah and one as the days of Lot. But I just noticed something I didn't see before. When referring to the second rapture that is compared to the days of Lot it refers to a SINGULAR day.

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man is revealed.

The Son of man is revealed at the sign of the Son of man on the Day of the Lord. This much is clear.

But notice that in the verse about the days of Noah (verse 26), it talks about DAYS (PLURAL)...not in reference to Lot and Noah, but only in reference to the story of Noah. The verse reads...26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS of the Son of man.

In other words, this verse seems to indicate that BOTH DAYS of the Son of man, or BOTH RAPTURES will have a comparison to the days of Noah.

The first day of the Son of man, the rapture of the Bride will be like the days of Noah, because a small remnant of Gentiles will be taken up above the arena of destruction. I also feel, as you do, that the rain coming down can be symbolic of the Holy Spirit falling on all of mankind. In the book I am working on, "Be The Bride, volume three", I have a chapter on the extensive scriptural evidence for the greatest ingathering of souls into the kingdom of God occurring during the shortened tribulation. It is interesting that the Word refers to this great harvest as the Latter RAIN. If the rapture of the Bride occurs on Pentecost as we expect, there will undoubtedly be a massive number of those that are born again that get left behind that suddenly get very serious about their relationship with God. What more appropriate day could the harvest begin than on the anniversary of the day that the Holy Spirit was first poured out in 30 AD.

Remember, the days of Noah are to be compared to the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man, so there should be a connection to the second rapture as well. Here is how the days of Noah foreshadow the second rapture of the tribulation saints on the Day of the Lord. On that final day of the shortened tribulation, the Judgment of God will fall on the entire world on the very same day that the saints go into the ark of safety of the New Jerusalem. In the same manner, in Noah's day, the righteous went into the ark on the "self same day" that the Judgment of God of all of mankind began as well.

So, just as verse 26 reads,...both Days of the Son of man, (both raptures), are, in different ways, AS the days of Noah. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

> > But notice that in the verse about the days of Noah (verse 26), it talks about DAYS (PLURAL)

Yes, both Raptures are as the days of the Son of Man. In both, people are floated upward, as in the Ark. In the gospel in the stars, we find out that the ship ARGO (COMPANY OF TRAVELERS) represents Christ, the Savior, bringing his company of travelers to port. There is only one ship pictured now, but in ancient Zodiacs, there were two ships. The remaining one has a representation of Christ's head just above the waterline and the ram's head above on the prow. The other ship had the curled tail of a fish on the opposite end from the head on the first ship, tying it to Christ as depicted in Capricorn. He died and was resurrected. The goat is dying. The curled fish tail depicts his resurrection. It is lively. The two ships told the story of two Raptures, the head and the tail.

James 5:7 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain." I think the first Rapture is after the rainy season, (Tishri 1 to Nisan 30). In Song of Sol. 2:10-14, the rain is over and gone. There are green figs and firstripe grapes. That fits Pentecost to a T, and it seemingly rules out the 3 feasts of Tishri and the 3 feasts of Nisan. Agape

Incoming email

Re: The Children of Israel (Jacob)
While searching for chronologies I found your page. I was into it when i read the following statement, which I think is in error. You stated:

Now the sojourning (Moshab, population, assembly, from Yashab, continue, i.e., continuance) of the children of Israel (i.e., Abraham and his seed from the time he entered the land that would become Israel),

I could be wrong, it wouldn't of course be the first time, but "something" can't be "something" until the time that, that "something" came into being. What I mean is, when it speaks of the Children of Israel it is speaking only of those descended from Jacob whom God renamed Israel. Jacob as Israel had twelve sons who became 12 tribes.

Since it is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who then became Israel, when it then speaks of "The Children of Israel" it is not speaking of Abraham or even Isaac, even though Abraham went to Egypt.

It seems like the time frame would be only Jacob and his 12 sons from the time they went to Egypt under Joseph.

Gen. 49:28 specifically states who the children of Israel are. Gen 49
1- Ruben, thou art my first born...
5- Simeon and Levi are brethren;
8- Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise
13- Zebulon, shall dwell at the haven of ships...
14- Issachar is a strong ass (I think I know him...)
16- Dan shall judge his people
19- Gad, a troop shall overcome him;
20- Asher his bread shall be fat,
21- Naphtali is a hind let loose..
23- Joseph is a fruitful bough,
27- Benjamin shall Ravin as a wolf;
28- ALL THESE ARE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (and their decedents after that)

Heb 11:21- By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the DEPARTING OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Abraham had Isaac, Isaac had Jacob and Jacob had 12 sons called "The Children of Israel because God renamed Jacob Israel.

Gen 32:28- And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Well after reading it again, MAYBE it was God, and maybe it was "a god" or principality that he wrestled with. I never have been convinced it was GOD himself, I don't think Jacob could have out wrestled GOD, but "a god", that is possible. And besides Paul stated in Ephesians that we wrestle against "Principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual or wicked spirits from on high. I don't know exactly WHO, but I do know that he came to be called Israel, and his sons and all of their decedents were called the children of Israel. So do you see what I mean, that Abraham is not classified under that category since he was the grandfather of Israel and the great grandfather of the "children" or "sons" of Israel.

It seems to me that if you are putting together a chronology, that this point would be very important since you are dealing with time. I have an example of something else I learned about "time lines". Colossians 2:8 warns about Philosophy.

Colossians 2:8- Beware lest anyone spoil you (lead you off as prey) through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men and the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.

When I read this 8 years ago, I decided that if I was going to beware of it, I had better know what it was, so I started studying what it was. This led me to looking up articles in the Encyclopedia Americana. Now one of the first things I learned was that the word "philosophy" was first coined by Socrates in 300 and something, and actually meant "lover of wisdom", but to Socrates and his followers meant "lover of learning".

Then later I read articles on other men who WERE CALLED PHILOSOPHERS, and yet they were around long before Socrates was ever born. Now the word was only invented or put together by Socrates in that fashion, to describe what he and his disciples were. So therefore "basically" there was no such thing as a philosopher before Socrates came up with the name by putting two Greek words together. Therefore even though other scholars call men before that specific point in history, "philosophers" or they talk about "philosophy", they are in error, since no such thing was around yet. Now that men were similar or did similar things, or that Socrates, Plato and Aristotle adapted some of the older knowledge of these men is one thing. But there could be no philosophers or philosophy, before Socrates.

And once you learn about these guys and the impact they have had on the world on up to our time, you come to realize that even though they sucked up the knowledge of others before them, they were in a class all their own. Plato the disciple of Socrates was the first one to use or make up the word THEOLOGY. These guys were around 300 years before Christ, and their ideas were very prominent in the first century. I learned that when Paul was speaking about philosophy, he primarily meant "theology". It's just that at that time theology was the primary ingredient of philosophy. Later as men acquired more knowledge in various fields of learning, each one broke off the main tree into it's own specialized branch of learning. The Christians of course adopted and specialized in "Theology", and this is what has done more to corrupt the understanding of scripture than any other single thing in the world.

The very systems they use in theology today were originally developed by Plato, for the specific purpose of controlling what people believed about what they read. The system of interpretation in Theology called Hermeneutics, is named after the Greek god Hermes, the messenger and interpreter of the gods. No PARDON me, but don't you think there is something just a teensy weensy bit OFF about using a system of interpretation developed by a PAGAN philosopher and named after a PAGAN god?????

DOSE ANYBODY OUT THERE SEE THIS, BUT ME???? In Christ

My reply

> > > Now the sojourning (Moshab, population, assembly, from Yashab, continue, i.e., continuance) of the children of Israel (i.e., Abraham and his seed from the time he entered the land that would become Israel)

> > Since it is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who then became Israel, when it then speaks of "The Children of Israel" it is not speaking of Abraham or even Isaac, even though Abraham went to Egypt. > > It seems like the time frame would be only Jacob and his 12 sons from the time they went to Egypt under Joseph....

What it seems on first look is not always what it is when we put all the relevant verses together. Bible chronology gives us five Gordian Knots to figure out. This is not one of those really hard ones, but it does take some work to understand it. Figuring out Bible chronology is not all a bed of thornless roses, there are some thorny problems like this one.

Ex. 12:40-43 says, "the sojourning (Moshab, population, assembly, from Yashab, continue, i.e., continuance) of the children of Israel (i.e., ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED FROM THE TIME HE ENTERED THE LAND THAT WOULD BECOME ISRAEL), who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt (the Exodus). It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel (descended from Abraham) in their generations. And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover" (Nisan 14, Lev. 23:5).

It was 430 years from the CALL of Abraham to the Exodus. The Exodus was at the time of Passover, therefore Abram was called at the time of Passover. This call of Abram, when he left Haran to enter the promised land, was in AH 2083 (BC 1960). The Exodus was in AH 2513 (BC 1530) (2513 - 2083 = 430 years.

When you work on Bible chronology, you find out that the 430 years HAVE to date from when Abraham entered the promised land. Acts 7:4,5 says, "Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet HE PROMISED that he would give it to him for a possession, AND TO HIS SEED AFTER HIM, WHEN AS YET HE HAD NO CHILD."

The promise that he AND HIS SEED would inherit the land came BEFORE Abram had Ishmael.

Gal. 3:17,18 says, "THE COVENANT (the Abrahamic Covenant), that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law (given at the time of the Exodus), which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make THE PROMISE of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

Gen. 15:13 says, "he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that THY SEED shall be a stranger in a land that is not their's, and shall serve them; and they (the Egyptians) shall afflict them (the seed of Abraham) four hundred years." AH 2113, when wild Ishmael was cast out, + 400 years = 2513 AH, the Exodus. It was 185 years from when Ishmael was cast out, and Isaac weaned, to the entry into Egypt and another 215 years before the Exodus. They were afflicted 400 years by Ishmael (half Egyptian) and the Egyptians (185 + 215 = 400).

I don't worry about what "theology" teaches. I just study the Bible for myself. All I care about is what the scriptures teach. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Thanks
...I live in England. I do printing & am an electricain I love the Lord with all my heart & am looking for His soon return. I have been following your web site for a number of years now. I would like to say Thank you for all your hard work & letting the holy spirit work through you. Remarkable wisdom.

People keep refering to the 5 Doves site, is it possable to e-mail me their web address please?

I have given your work to a lot of people who have learnt & had their eyes opened to the meaning of things (including myself).

I look forward to talking to you in heaven soon. Lots of love to you & Edd. Please keep up the good work.

My reply

Thanks for all your kind words. Here is the URL for the 5doves site. It is on my Link page.

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~spirit5
I scroll down and click on the newest "Letters."

I love the Lord with all my heart & am looking for His soon return too. I am looking forward to meeting many people in Heaven that have e-mailed me. That will be one great day. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Forthcoming Peace Treaty?
Just like you and the rest of the Bride of Christ, I am hoping and praying for a Pentecost Rapture this year. But....don't we need the makings of a peace treaty before we are raptured? If the antichrist "confirms" the treaty, then one must already be in place. Ariel Sharon refuses to even discuss peace until the violence stops and that looks unlikely. How can all this come about in a little under three months? I just need some encouragement. Thanks for your input. I'd be lost without your web site.

My reply

The Lord is in complete control. He will see to it that the covenant is ready to be confirmed as the Tribulation begins. We trusted the Lord for Salvation, and we should trust Him to bring all his promises to pass. He is the "Almighty" (Rev. 1:8). Beforehand, did you think that the Oslo Accords would be signed on Sept. 13, 1993? in the United States? Whatever comes will probably be an outgrowth of those.

If another treaty is signed 7 days before the Rapture, we will get a 7-day warning as Noah did, but we can't be sure we will get a warning. He did because he had to load the Ark. Thinking of the Ark makes me wonder if the Lord fed the animals as he fed the 5000. From what we are told, Noah didn't know how long they would be in the Ark. And for us, Luke 12:37 says, "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

For the present time, wars and rumors of wars is still in effect. So is "see that ye be not troubled" (Mt. 24:6). We are being tested. The love of many shall wax cold. We don't want to be in that group. If we pass this testing, we won't have to be tested during the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10). Agape

Incoming email

Re: Summary
Here is the "wrap up" of all dates that qualify for our Redemption. They are based on the establishment of the Jewish Authorities as written by Josephus in 70AD, to establish the Firstfruits on Nisan 16, and Pentecost on Sivan 6. Zola Levitt ministries had a letter posted that was written by Thomas S. McCall in July of 1995. The summary is that there is a suggestion that there was a change some time after the Ressurection of Christ and before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. The references here are all found in Leviticus 23, notice the use of the ongoing pinpointing of Sunday being mentioned, the day AFTER the Sabbath. What happened before 70 AD was a direct reference to the LORD'S ressurection on the First Sunday of Passover week at Firstfruits, and the day of Pentecost (the Holy Spirit had fully come) seven Sundays later on Pentecost.

If you have a Calendar with Jewish and Gregorian dates, here is a guide. All these references are to the Jewish Year of 5761 which is Gregorian 2001. ALL DAYS ARE SUNDAYS in Jerusalem, which is generally Saturday in North America.

FIRSTFRUITS - Sunday Nisan 15 which is Sunday April 8th.
The window for Redemption is from April 8th, for the following seven Sundays.
Nisan 22,29 which is April 15,22
Iyyar 6,13,20,27 which is April 29, May 6,13,20
Sivan 5, which actually on the Sunday in Jerusalem will become
Sivan 6, which is PENTECOST at sunset. Pentecost starts on a Sunday at sunset.

All days are Sundays, which is the Lord's Day of Revelation 1:10. All believers I trust as discerning truth have a suggestion of ONE of these Sundays.

I vote for Nisan 22, based on the vision I had on February 13th, about the ten days of persecution of Revelation 2:10, by my supposing the ten days starts on Nisan 13,which is actually the Thursday 5th of April, the day that Christ was sacrificed as the Passover Lamb.

Our Redemption is going to be one of these days, I am certain. God Bless

My reply

> > FIRSTFRUITS - Sunday Nisan 15 which is Sunday April 8th.

Nisan 15 (from 6 PM Saturday to 6 PM Sunday, April 7/8 in Jerusalem) is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The next day, Nisan 16 (from 6 PM Sunday to 6 PM Monday, April 8/9 in Jerusalem), is the Feast of Firstfruits. No matter how you interpret "the morrow after the sabbath" (Lev. 23:11), you can't make both of these feasts fall on the same day, Nisan 15.

Jesus was 3 days in the heart of the Earth. Mt. 12:40 says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The 3 days and 3 nights are:

Day (1) Preparation of the Passover, Thurs. Nisan 13, Crucifixion
Night (first)
Day (2) Passover, Fri. Nisan 14
Night (second)
Day (3) Unleavened Bread, Sat. Nisan 15
Night (third) Resurrection

Jesus was seen alive on Sunday morning, Nisan 16, Feast of Firstfruits.

Luke 24:21 says, "we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Those 3 days are:

(1) Friday, Passover, Nisan 14
(2) Saturday, Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15
(3) Sunday, Firstfruits, Nisan 16

These feasts were on three consecutive days or the "third day since" would not fit. Neither would the 3 days and 3 nights fit.

> > I vote for Nisan 22, based on the vision

My guess is Sivan 6, May 28, Pentecost, based on what I see in the Bible.

I think Isa. 18:3-6 shows when the Pre-Trib Rapture happens and the foolish virgins are cut off. It says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (nations, i.e., world government); and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (nabat, see, look at) in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest (probably Pentecost). "For afore the harvest (maybe Ascension Day, 10 days before Pentecost), when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower (latter part of May or early June), he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches (with no fruit). They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them."

Then the Rapture is in the spring, as in Song of Solomon 2:10-14. There the rain is over and gone. Nisan is the month of the latter rain, so I do not expect the Rapture in Nisan, but between Nisan 30 (Apr. 23, 2001) and the beginning of summer on Sivan 30 (June 21, 2001). Pentecost fits. No other feast does, for Tishri is the month of the former rains, and Nisan is the month of the latter rains. To me, that knocks out the 3 feasts of Tishri and the 3 feasts of Nisan.

I think Heb. 12:22,23 shows that the Rapture will be on a feast day. It says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly (panegurei, festal assembly, Thayer) and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

Weymouth has "to the great festal gathering." JB has, "gathered for the festival, with the whole church of firstborn sons." Agape

Incoming email

Re: War in the Spring of 2001
Thanks for keeping your visitors eyes focused on the prize. I was searching the latest Israeli news and found an article by a military historian. It seems that Satan knows that his time is short and that war will follow the May rapture of the bride.

Military historian Dr. Aryeh Yitzchaki was asked today how he reads the reported Egyptian decision to call up its reserves for "exercises." His response: "All the classic warning signs are there, and it is clear that we are poised for war, possibly within two months. I don't want to scare anyone, but as opposed to IDF Military Intelligence, my opinion for the last two years has been that war will erupt in the spring of 2001, and it will involve not only the Palestinian Authority and Hizbullah, but also Egypt, Syria, and Iraq. The Egyptian Army does not need reserves - it's an army built on its standing force, and therefore Israel's denials of the Egyptian call-up are not relevant. The Egyptian Army is poised for war; it has created new regiments, has been training intensively, and has acquired the most up-to-date American equipment... I am happy that despite the IDF's denials of my prognosis, Intelligence Chief Head Maj.-Gen. Amos Malka is beginning to agree with me." Yitzchaki said that despite reports that Iraq and Iran will have nuclear weapons only three and five years from now, respectively, "I have reliable information that Iraq already has one nuclear bomb-and this explains his recent 'chutzpah' vis-a-vis the Americans - and that Iran will have one ready by the end of this year."

Time is short indeed! Maranatha Lord Christ

My reply

I know that there are to be wars and rumors of wars, but we are not to be troubled (Mt. 24:6). Right after the Rapture seems to be a time of peace, because the first beast comes upon the scene as a prince of peace riding a white horse. He does not bring war until the second seal is opened, probably in the 2nd year.

The seals seem to be opened one a year until the Tribulation is shortened. The 7th is opened the day after the 6th. The 6th is the end of this age, the 7th the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord. Agape

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