Pro and Con 71, Uploaded 3-14-98

Incoming Email

First off, I have to say that I greatly admire you for being probably the gutsiest end-times scholar around. Without seeming sensationalist at all, you calmly declare what you believe and back it up with huge amounts of scripture. You have brought obscure old-testament passages to the light of day. Truly all things are hidden only to be revealed, and God has clearly revealed many of them to you. Time will tell concerning the exact date of the rapture, but my wife and I have a witness in our spirits that you are right, after reading your latest book.

And speaking of that, what a miracle! That book is in every secular bookstore I enter (and I enter them all. Bookstores are irresistable to me.)! The favor of placement you have recieved is also a sign from Heaven that you are correct and God wants people to read your writing. God bless you. See you on the way up...

I actually *did* have two questions:

The standards for participation in the rapture, for us who are alive in Christ, are high. Do you think the dead in Christ are held to the same criteria? Or will people who were just lukewarm in their earthly walk arise out of the grave on that day? It seems that God would apply the same standards to both groups, but that either means (1): not all the saints will rise then, or (2): lukewarm christians aren't actually Christians at all. Hmmm.

The second question may seem trivial, but it's not trivial to Lindsey, my youngest daughter:

Have you encountered any scripture that would indicate that God will take our beloved pets with us when we go up?

Lindsey is appalled to think of her dog possibly starving to death after we leave.

Bless you, dear lady.

My reply

Thank you so much for your comments. Ed and I found my latest book face out at B. Dalton's today.

> It seems that God would apply the same standards to both groups, but that either
> means (1): not all the saints will rise then, or (2): lukewarm christians aren't
> actually Christians at all. Hmmm.

The Lord is fair to all. We can't lose what we have earned just because we die before the Rapture. Not all saints will go in the first Rapture, but all will be caught up at the last trump. Lukewarm Laodiceans are in Christ. Have to be to be spewed out of his mouth. They will just be caught up in the second Rapture if they haven't been martyred during the Tribulation.

About pets, I don't know, but Dr. Talbert once said that we were going to be happy in Heaven, and if it required us to have our pets, they would be there.

Incoming Email, Re: The Ten Years

I agree with you on the timing of May 31, 1998, and also the ten years following, but I feel the fig tree parable is not a good foundation for this, as it is not a parable related to the church. However, I feel that Genesis 24:55 strongly supports the ten year hypothesis. This chapter is strongly typological of Christ and the Bride of Christ, and the servant is obviously the type of the Holy Spirit. Note that the Gentiles want to detain the Holy Spirit and the Bride for at least ten years (suggesting maybe even ten and a half, e.g. 7 years plus 3.5; yet this is shortened a little). This verse very strongly supports your view. Rebekah and her family are Gentiles, and Rebekah herself the Gentile Bride of Isaac. The Holy Spirit will not suffer the Bridegroom to wait! Your friend in Christ, who will be taken with you in scarcely more than 2.5 months!

My reply

Thanks for writing. I agree on Gen. 24:55. It says, "Let the damsel (Rebekah, 'a virgin' who 'filled her pitcher, and came up' 'thy master's son's wife') abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go." This supports the Jewish 5758 to 5768 spread for the two Raptures.

Today, we can see this reflected in the mainly Gentile Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath views of the Rapture, many not realizing that there are two Raptures, that, in a way, both positions are right, hence the confusion. The Pre-Tribers are like Rebekah. She said, "I will go" (Gen. 24:58). The Pre-Wrathers tell us we will have to wait until the end of the Tribulation. However, Rebekah did not have to go through tribulation. "And Rebekah arose" (24:61). She went with the master's servant and was met by the bridegroom, who took her into Sarah's tent. According to the "allegory" in Gal. 4:22-26, Sarah represents "Jerusalem which is above." It is a good picture if only we have eyes to see.

"Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:11,12).

May we meet when we "are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus" (Heb. 12:22-24).

Incoming Email

Thank you so much for your web site. My husband and i are studying and giving others the information you have provided. We are ABA Baptists, which have the belief that the bride of Christ is separate from the body of Christ or Universal church. They have not taught about two raptures, but this fits right in with the fact that there is a separate reward. We are going to give the rapture and l0 virgin reports to him tomorrow.

One question i have is about the believers that have already died. I assume that the bride is taken up at the time of the first rapture and the others are left until the second rapture. This means the 2nd rapture dead will escape the punishment the living 2nd rapture people will have to endure.

Thanks again. I have been studying Revelation for 25 years since I was saved reading a book from the library called "The Late Great Planet Earth". This just made so much click into place!!

My reply

> the bride is taken up at the time of the first rapture and the others are left until
> the second rapture. This means the 2nd rapture dead will escape the punishment
> the living 2nd rapture people will have to endure.

That seems reasonable, but there may be a difference in what the living have to endure also. The martyrs and believers that have to flee Jerusalem seem to be headed for the worst of it.

Incoming Email

You may remember the astonishing 1993 experience of Vincent Tan when he was encountered by an angel in the guise of an old man. Afterward, Vincent filled his car's (not truck's) gas tank, and it topped at exactly $2.34. Oddly, he could not get one penny's worth more in it. Later, he remembered that the old man (angel) had previously said he left some gas money for Vincent's car in Vincent's truck. He checked, and on the passenger-side seat of his truck, underneath his gloves, he did, indeed, find some money. Vincent picked up the money and counted two one-dollar bills, a quarter, a nickle and four pennies -- exactly $2.34, the same amount of gas he had just put in his car!!!

From the moment I heard this, I knew there was something special about the number 234 here, perhaps a coded message. Jesus is never arbitrary. Everything He does has a specific purpose, such as when the Holy Spirit recorded the specific number of fish, 153, caught in the net (John 21:11). But I never had a clue of what it 234 may have meant.

Now, Internet acquaintance Clay Cantrell may have broken the code. In fact, he believes the Lord has shown him this:

If you take the number 234 and add every combination of those three numbers, you get:

234
243
324
342
432
+ 423
________
= 1998

Remember, the old man's (angel's) 1993 message from the Lord to Vincent: "The Lord is coming VERY, VERY soon." The whole context of the encounter was TIMING, and NEARNESS. With the money he left, did the Lord also include the code as to "how soon," and only now allow the breaking of the code?

My gut feeling is that by God's Spirit, Clay has probably broken the code of the $2.34, especially in view of all the other evidence pointing to 1998, documented by several astute Bible students. The odds against any such number adding to 1998 must be extremely high. I also suspect there is even more meaning here, and that the Lord will reveal it to someone....

My reply

Thanks so much for this great information. I'll put it on Pro and Con so everyone can see it.

Here is Vincent Tan's ANGEL ENCOUNTER:

"It happened just past midnight on March 26, 1993, to Vincent Tan, an analytical chemist who works in Chattanooga. I spent weeks personally tracing this incident and have confirmed it with two reputable Christian leaders, his pastor and, finally, even Vincent himself. The following is a precisely recorded account:  Vincent was born Tan Ban Soon in Singapore of Chinese, Buddhist parents. A few years ago as a young boy in Singapore, he was in the library reading a book on nuclear physics and discovered an offer for a Bible course stuck between some pages. He ordered the course and later became a Christian. He came to the U.S. to attend a Christian college, then gave himself the western name of Vincent. After four years, he graduated with a major in science. He has been very active in his church and in sharing his faith.

On the night of Thursday, March 25, 1993, Vincent was working late in his laboratory to complete tests due on Friday. During the evening he moved his car close to the front door of the building, since there had recently been criminal activity in the area. From time to time he looked out the window into the almost empty parking lot to check on his car. At 1:30 a.m. he finished working in his lab. As he was preparing to lock the door, he saw a person standing by the passenger side of his car. Vincent assumed the man was trying to steal his car. He noted that the stranger was of medium build with clean-cut, straight hair and had on a T-shirt, blue jeans and white tennis shoes.

Unsure what to do, he went back into the lab and prayed, "Lord, help me to do what I have to do. Do I have to use chi-sao?" Chi-sao (pronounced "chee'-sow-o") is a form of martial art in which Vincent is proficient. To be extra safe, he looked around the lab and picked up an 18-inch metal rod, held it behind him and stuck his head out the door. He said, "Hi, can I help you?"

The stranger answered, "Hi, Vincent."

Startled, Vincent asked, "Do I know you?"

The stranger replied, "Not really."

"What is your name? Who are you?" Vincent probed.

The stranger said, "I have the name of your primary and secondary school." He added, "I'm a friend. You don't have to use chi-sao or the rod on me." His voice had unusual authority, and it seemed he knew the question before it was asked.

Now Vincent was really startled. No one, not even his best friend in this country, was familiar with chi-sao, nor did anyone even know that he knew it. Also, there was no way the stranger could have seen the rod behind his back. Vincent later reflected that the stranger had used terminology ("primary and secondary school") of Singapore and not the U.S., and that name of his school back in Singapore was St. Gabriel. The stranger was saying that his name was Gabriel!

"How do you know that?" Vincent asked.

"I know," the stranger replied. "By the way, Mum is fine." Vincent was startled again. Just the week before, his sister had called from Singapore saying that his mother had heart complications, and Vincent had been quite worried about her.

Gabriel continued, "You love the Lord very much, don't you?"

"That's right," Vincent replied.

"He loves you very much, too," Gabriel said. Then he added, "He is coming very, very soon." He seemed to emphasize the "very soon."

Vincent answered, "That's great!"

Gabriel then asked, "Can I have a cup of water?"

Vincent said, "Sure," and turned momentarily to get him the water. Then he decided to invite the stranger inside to drink from the water fountain. He turned back to invite him inside -- but Gabriel was not there. He had suddenly and unexplainably vanished! Vincent had not turned his head for more than three seconds. There was no place for the stranger to have gone.

Puzzled, and not wanting to go back into the lab, Vincent laid the metal rod down by the front door and headed to his home outside of Chattanooga. When he came back to work later that morning, he wondered if he had dreamed the whole experience. As a scientist, he wanted to prove whether it had really happened. When he got to the building, he found the metal rod lying by the door just where he had left it. He knew he had not been dreaming. Upon entering the lab, the first thing he did was to lock himself in the rest room and kneel in prayer. "Show me what to do, Lord. I know what I remember. If I'm supposed to share it, I must believe it myself," Vincent pleaded. He then sat down at his computer and recorded every word said and everything that had happened.

That night, March 26, 1993, in a dream Vincent relived the whole experience, seeing himself, and word for word hearing the whole conversation. He awoke at about 3:30 a.m. and wrote down every word in the dream and the description of the stranger. What he wrote from the dream confirmed every detail he had written earlier. Also, a week after the experience, he learned that his mother had received needed surgery and was recuperating nicely -- and that the medical decision about her improved condition came a week earlier at about the very same hour as he was talking with Gabriel! On July 29, 1993 I asked Vincent what effect this experience has had on him. He said he believes more strongly now that we should be ready every day for the Lord's coming, and not worry about which day He will come. He said the experience has intensified his dedication, causing him to spend more devotional time than before, wanting to know more about God and be closer to Him. For some time, even before that experience, Vincent said he had been asking God, "Am I ready, right now?" Now, more meaningfully than ever, this writer is asking that same question."

Incoming Email, Re: FIRST LOVE

(Rev 1:1-2) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the WORD OF GOD and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This was made Known By GOD to Jesus This Comes FROM GOD Through Jesus By an angel and Through John

(Rev 1:4-6) John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before HIS throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings OF THE EARTH. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve HIS GOD and Father-- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

HE Who is to come is the GOD of Jesus! Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before HIS throne, AND from Jesus Christ,

(Rev 1:8) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says THE LORD GOD, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY."

The GOD of Jesus is "the Lord God" and "the Almighty" The GOD of Jesus is "the Alpha and the Omega"!

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before HIS throne, AND from Jesus Christ,

(Rev 1:13-17) Jesus is a thirty three year old man in a human eternal body This DOES NOT Describe Jesus, It Depicts the GOD and Father of Jesus

and among the lampstands was someone "LIKE a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were WHITE LIKE WOOL, as WHITE AS SNOW, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of RUSHING WATERS. When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of RUSHING WATERS, like THE VOICE OF THE ALMIGHTY, ... (Ezek 1:24)

In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I AM the FIRST and the LAST.

The GOD of Jesus, the Almighty, is "the First and the Last"!

In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, AND of Christ Jesus, ... I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time-- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. (1 Tim 6:13-16)

but in these last days HE HAS SPOKEN to us by his Son, whom HE APPOINTED heir of all things, and through whom HE MADE the universe. (Heb 1:2)

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. (Isa 43:10-11)

You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and HAVE NOT grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your FIRST LOVE. (Rev 2:3-4)

THE FIRST LOVE OF JEWISH PEOPLE, OF ALL PEOPLE, IS TO BE THE GOD OF JESUS

My reply

> The revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave him to show his servants what must
> soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John

Eph. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." As the pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament times, He said, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first (YHWH, king of Israel), I ALSO am the last (YHWH of hosts). Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens. when I call unto them, they stand up together...Come ye near unto me (Christ), hear ye this; I (Christ), have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I (Christ): and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit (the Holy Spirit), hath sent me (Christ)" (Isa. 49:12,13,16).

"Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH the King of Israel, and I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God" (Isa. 44:6).

Since "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18), I believe that the pre-incarnate Christ, the YWVH of hosts, is the angel of the Lord. Therefore Christ is actually the one talking in Rev. 1:8.

This is in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1. It very well may be the first words we hear Christ say to us after the Rapture has taken place. Verse 8 says with great authority, "I am Alpha (the first) and Omega (the last), the beginning (Lord of the Old Testament) and the ending (Lord of the New Testament), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the Almighty."

This agrees with Isa. 9:6: "his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

> Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the
> seven spirits before HIS throne, AND from Jesus Christ,... To him who loves us and has
> freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to
> serve HIS GOD and Father--

As in Isa. 44:6, we can see that the Father was in Christ and that they were united in one person. Isa. 46: 21,22 says, who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHVH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God AND a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.

In ancient time, it was told. De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH); our God (Elohim) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)."

> and among the lampstands was someone "LIKE a son of man,"

He was not just a man. He was both man and God. He inherited his human nature from his mother and his deity was "given" by his Father. Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (his human nature inherited from his mother), unto us a son is given (his deity given by his Father)."

> His head and hair were WHITE LIKE WOOL, as WHITE AS SNOW,

No man (not even John) has seen God at any time. This is the Son. Proverbs 30:4 asks, "who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?" The son's name is Jesus Christ. Here, he is standing in Heaven with all the seven church groups around him. He still has the star performers, "the angels of the seven churches," in his hand for he has just snatched them up in this Preview of the Rapture.

> and his voice was like the sound of RUSHING WATERS.

> When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of RUSHING
> WATERS, like THE VOICE OF THE ALMIGHTY, ... (Ezek 1:24)

Jesus Christ is the Almighty (Isa. 9:6).

> When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on
> me and said: "Do not be afraid. I AM the FIRST and the LAST.

This portrayed resurrection, which is part of the Rapture. Christ is both the first AND the last, the pre-incarnate Christ and the incarnate Christ.

> God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is
> immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
> To him be honor and might forever. Amen. (1 Tim 6:13-16)

See how one part of Christ "no one has seen or can see" and yet he is seen in Rev. 19:16 as "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS"? Jesus Christ has two natures. Whenever he is seen, he is either as the angel of the Lord or as Jesus Christ.

> but in these last days HE HAS SPOKEN to us by his Son, whom HE APPOINTED heir of all
> things, and through whom HE MADE the universe. (Heb 1:2)

Heb. 1:2 in Green's Interlinear says, "in these last days He has spoken to us IN the Son." This is correct. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." De. 6:4, says, "The LORD our God is one (echad, united) LORD." II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ."

> You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and HAVE NOT grown weary.
> Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your FIRST LOVE. (Rev 2:3-4)

> THE FIRST LOVE OF JEWISH PEOPLE, OF ALL PEOPLE, IS TO BE THE GOD OF JESUS

Surely, you did not say what you meant here.

Psa. 2:4-7,12 says, "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in HIS WRATH, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD (YHVH king of Israel) hath said unto me (YHVH of hosts), THOU ART MY SON; this day have I begotten thee...Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when HIS WRATH is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name ("Jesus Christ," v. 10) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

YHVH says, "THOU ART MY SON."

I John 2:23 says, Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

Incoming Email

I just purchased Heaven Found at Barnes and Noble. I am still trying to fathom what's in your book, and I am only half-way! I have gone to the NASA websites to check out the pictures of it (it's beautiful). All I can say is wow!

You work hard Marilyn, and I am thankful for it! God bless you!

My reply

I thank you too.

On page 114, when you read about "the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, circles)" think about Saturn having seven rings. It is well marked, all right. It is the third heaven and is the only one of the planets that is really amber and golden.

   Pro and Con 72   Or Return  Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@kiwi.net

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960


© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 3-14-98