Pro and Con 710

Posted 3-14-01

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You may or may not have this site in your files, I find it useful, and thought you may too.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
Particularly nice are the maps, simple enough yet useful. Agape to everyone

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FW: Venus and April 15, 2001...this came in my email this morning. I hope you find it as interesting as I have. Agape

My reply

I read the whole article from the Mormon Meridian Magazine, Venus Resurrects This Easter Sunday, by John P. Pratt.
www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/010227easter.html
The blurb under his picture says, "John P. Pratt writes a monthly column for Meridian Magazine giving one L.D.S. (Mormon) perspective on current science. He has a Ph.D. in astronomy and specializes in religious chronology and ancient calendars."

Among other Mormon things, Pratt said, "Venus will disappear toward the end of March. The planet then resurrects, becoming visible to the trained eye again probably about 5-10 April, depending on observing conditions. But as we will now see, there is a calendar date indicated for the official resurrection date of Venus, on which it is bright enough for all to see. That date this year coincides with Easter Sunday, 15 April 2001."

Does it seem a little strange to you to stretch "5-10 April" to mean "Easter Sunday, 15 April 2001? Even though he is an astronomer, I want to be sure it is really is "official." He could be right on this, but most of the other stuff he has to say in the article is wrong, so I need other proof than just his word.

Here is another sample. Pratt said, "Native Americans have preserved traditions which suggest that the cycles of Venus, the Evening and the Morning Star, symbolize the life of their white and bearded god, the Feathered Serpent, who was said to have visited them during the first century A.D. Because of the account in the Book of Mormon of the visit of the Savior to the Western Hemisphere during that same century, much has been written supporting the idea that the Feathered Serpent was none other than the resurrected Jesus Christ."

This is blasphemy to me. It smacks of the other serpent's doings to confuse people--smear the truth with as much non-truth as possible to try to hide it. Satan has created all kinds of counterfeit religions. In each big basket of lies, he throws in a handful of truth to try to get people to believe the rest. He is sneaky. No wonder a serpent is his symbol. Agape

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Reference P&C 705 and the timing of Revelation 11. I completely agree with you this has to be mid trib because of verse 7.

The parenthetical portion ends after verse 14 which tells us that after the Jerusalem earthquake, the second woe is past.

Therefore, all seals, trumpet judgments, and the first woe must have already happened before this mid-trib Jerusalem earthquake of verse13. Verse 14 is clear that the second woe is PAST after the earthquake and the third woe will quickly follow.

If the above is true, then the trumpet judgments happen BEFORE mid-trib. What do you think? Agape to both you and Ed.

My reply

> > the trumpet judgments happen BEFORE mid-trib.

I think that the trumpet judgments can't happen "BEFORE mid-trib."

They don't take place until Gog's army attacks Israel at the end of the shortened Tribulation. These judgments are what stops Gog's army. The 7 trumpet judgments take place on the Feast of Trumpets that is the 2300th day of the Tribulation. That is the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, when Christ is crowned, the Marriage of the Lamb takes place, and the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes.

> > The parenthetical portion ends after verse 14 which tells us that after the Jerusalem earthquake, the second woe is past.

I think Scofield goofed here. He put the note "The second woe" before v. 13, and "End of the second parenthetical passage," after v. 14. I think the 6th trumpet (9:13f) is the 2nd woe, and "End of the second parenthetical passage" should follow 11:13.

Since the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet, and the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet, v. 14 is introducing the 7th trumpet. All of the trumpet judgments hit Earth on the Day of God's Wrath, which I expect on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007).

The last 3 trumpets are the 3 woes. Each one is introduced by a mention of "woe." Rev. 8:13 introduces the 3 woes. It says, "I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" The next verse, Rev. 9:1 starts explaining what happens under the 5th trumpet, which is the 1st woe.

The 1st woe is the 5th trumpet, of 9:1f. That trumpet is introduced by 8:13's "Woe, woe, woe," etc.

The 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet, of Rev. 9:13f. That trumpet is introduced by Rev. 9:12: "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet, of Rev. 11:15f. That trumpet is introduced by Rev. 11:14: "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

I don't see how it could be otherwise. Do you?...Agape

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From: Finland.
Someone in PC 704 said, that the "little horn" will appear 10 days before rapture - as an unmistakeable marker.

Whether this or something else, but it sounds right that something big and ugly will happen that time. There probably happens something particular - maybe a great unjustice and cheating (against Israel / Jerusalem) with blasphemous ways to stir Godīs anger and cause the Tribulation to start.

This event is very likely so clear, that every watching Christian (with the Spirit) will notice it and be ready. Letīs wait and see! Agape

My reply

Rev. 2:10's 10 days could apply, especially since 10 days before Pentecost is the anniversary of Jesus' Ascension Day. The 7 days of warning Noah got also could apply. As you say, we need to keep watching.

The grace years given the fig tree (Israel) to show fruit (Luke 13:6-9) are about over. The digging about the fig tree and dunging will probably take place in the next year. I wish Israel would wake up and get right with God. The Tribulation seems like it could be dropped out of the timeline if Israel would turn to God now. Once it starts, I see no chance of stopping it until the bitter end. Agape

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Re: Question About Heaven
...enjoyed reading your book - Heaven Found.

I have also spent some time in the last few days reviewing Revelation 21 which has a detailed description of New Jeruselem. There are a couple of things that don't seem to fit and few things that I don't fully understand. Please help!!

Revelations 21:9-27 (my comments and questions in italics)

Note: Oops! Copy and Paste removed the italics. It's a good thing I copied the questions in my reply.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride (includes those taken in the pre-tribulation rapture - is this an indication that only the Bride of Christ will reside in New Jeruselem??), the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain (he was already in heaven - Saturn?? - from which he was viewing all the things he has written in Revelation, so the angel must have taken him to a high mountain within Heaven - on the planet Saturn?? - so that he could see the City?), and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (this sounds like the city is not a part of heaven, but is separate from heaven - maybe part of the Heavenly system like one of Saturn's moons (Titan has an atmosphere and is very interesting)??? Is New Jeruselem Heaven or is it on/in - part of - Heaven??). 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious (isn't the light of precious stones actually a reflection of the actual light source??), even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. (If heaven is a sphere - planet - Saturn, I can't envision how it could have a wall with gates?? The wall is even given exact dimensions in verse 17. This would seem to support the idea that New Jeruselem is a city in/on Heaven???)

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs (about 818.1818 miles if a furlong is 120 yards. This seems very precise - even if the conversion to units I am familiar with is not. If foursquare is better interpreted as four-cornered and if the description could be of a sphere - which makes sense to me - how can New Jeruselem be a sphere called Saturn if the City has a diameter of 818.1818 miles (which would give a surface area of about one fourth the size of the United States (50 states)) and Saturn has a diameter of 74,600 miles??? - Also, is the diameter of Saturn the diameter of the planet including the atmosphere?? The diameter of the solid part of the planet could be much smaller). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits (about 216' if a cubit is 18"), according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (This would seem to indicate that Jesus does reside there) 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

...I have started on Exit 2007. I am creating a schedule (with Microsoft Project software that I use on my job every day) to map out the events from September 1993 to July 2008. I have been trained to think like an engineer (more structured and organized rather than creative and envisioning) so this is seeming to be much more understandable than the information related to my questions above.

PS: I wrote the length for a furlong down wrong. From Webster's dictionary, it is 220 yards, which would make the diameter 1500 miles. Not 818.18.

My reply

I'll try, but remember, I have lots of questions left that I don't know the answers to.

> > I will shew thee the bride (includes those taken in the pre-tribulation rapture - is this an indication that only the Bride of Christ will reside in New Jeruselem?

I think that since the names of the 12 tribes of Israel are on the gates, Israel is represented there too. Abraham was looking for a city, and Heb. 11:14-16 says, "they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out (Israel on Earth), they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." This sounds like New Jerusalem.

Eph. 4:4 says, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling." I Cor. 12:13 says, "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Eph. 2:13-15 says, "now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man."

New Jerusalem only appears twice. Rev. 3:12 says to the Philadelphians, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 21:2 says, " I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

In the Preview of the Rapture, the Lord "hath made us kings and priests" (Rev. 1:6). Right after the Rapture, the saints say, "and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." I think that the Old Testament saints will be among the New Testament saints at the Rapture. Heb. 11:32-40 says, "the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

The First Resurrection includes the saints caught up in both Raptures. They "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6). Here, it doesn't mention kings as Rev. 1:6 and 5:10 did concerning the 1st group raptured.

Maybe New Jerusalem will be our home away from home during the Millennium, during the time we reign with Christ. The symbol gives us sketchy information about the real New Jerusalem. Evidently, it will orbit Earth like the Moon, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the Earth do bring their glory and honour into it....there shall be no night there...And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth...but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Rev. 21:24-27). This seems to indicate that all the saints, of both Rapture groups, are in New Jerusalem. See what you think.

> > he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain (he was already in heaven - Saturn?? - from which he was viewing all the things he has written in Revelation, so the angel must have taken him to a high mountain within Heaven - on the planet Saturn??

I think at this point, John was caught up to Heaven. At the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Lord says, "Come up hither," and we are caught up to Heaven. At Mid-Trib, the 2 witnesses are caught up when they hear "Come up hither." In Rev. 21:9, John hears "Come hither" and he is caught up to New Jerusalem. In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10, John became "in the Spirit." In the Pre-Trib Rapture in 4:1,2, John was immediately "in the spirit." In 21:10, John is "carried...away in the spirit."

He sees New Jerusalem "descending out of heaven from God." We are not given many details about this, but it seems likely that New Jerusalem will come down and orbit the Earth like the Moon during the Millennium so we can easily do our part as kings and priests ruling over the Earth during the Millennium. Rev. 5:10 says, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." Rev. 22:5 says there shall be no night there, and they shall "reign." Also, the priests had duty in courses. Not all were on duty all the time. We may travel back and forth too, having two places to live.

> > great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (this sounds like the city is not a part of heaven, but is separate from heaven - maybe part of the Heavenly system like one of Saturn's moons (Titan has an atmosphere and is very interesting)??? Is New Jeruselem Heaven or is it on/in - part of - Heaven??).

I don't know. Since the city comes down near Earth, it does seem like a moon orbiting Saturn. I checked the dimensions of previously known satellites, but they didn't match the size given for New Jerusalem. The new ones may be captured asteroids.

It is pure speculation on my part, but since Psa. 17:8 says, "Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings," I have wondered if New Jerusalem could be hidden from our view by the shadow of Heaven's rings. At a tilted angle, the rings look like wings. There are so many things I'd like to know more about. New Jerusalem is one of them.

> > Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious (isn't the light of precious stones actually a reflection of the actual light source??),

Yes. Rev. 21:23,24 says, "the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it."

> > If heaven is a sphere - planet - Saturn, I can't envision how it could have a wall with gates?? The wall is even given exact dimensions in verse 17. This would seem to support the idea that New Jeruselem is a city in/on Heaven?

I can't say for sure, but it seems like Saturn is the permanent Paradise and New Jerusalem is a home away from home when we need to be near the Earth during the Millennium. II Cor. 12:2-4 says, "I knew a man in Christ (Paul himself, read to v. 7) above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN [Mars, Jupiter, Saturn]. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

A circular wall can have 3 gates on each side. Josephus described the camp of the Israelites in the wilderness. I think that they camped in concentric circles around the Tabernacle, with concentric roads used for trading between the rows and with each camp facing the Tabernacle. Doesn't that remind you of Saturn's rings?

Josephus said, "When they set up the tabernacle, they received it into the midst of their camp, three of the tribes pitching their tents on each side of it; and roads were cut through the midst of these tents. It was like a well-appointed market; and everything was there ready for sale in due order; and all sorts of artificers were in the shops; and it resembled nothing so much as a CITY THAT SOMETIMES WAS MOVABLE, AND SOMETIMES FIXED (that fits Saturn and New Jerusalem pretty well). The priests had the first places about the tabernacle; then the Levites...during the time that the cloud stood over the tabernacle, they thought proper to stay in the same place, as supposing that God there inhabited among them; but when that removed, they JOURNEYED ALSO. (Ant. III. XII. 5)

Maybe there are permanent dwelling places on Saturn and temporary dwelling places on New Jerusalem, similar to some people's vacation houses. The Israelites "orbited" Mt. Sinai too, thus suggesting a satellite of Saturn.

This is off the subject, but it comes right after the above, and helps us understand the 2 silver trumpets that prefigure the 2 Rapture trumps of God. He said, "Moses was the inventor of the form of their trumpet, which was made of silver....Two of these being made, one of them was sounded when they required the multitude to come together to congregations. When the first of them gave a signal, the heads of the tribes were to assemble (the elders), and consult about the affairs to them properly belonging; but when they gave the signal by both of them, they called the multitude together." (Ant. III. XII. 6)

> > If foursquare is better interpreted as four-cornered and if the description could be of a sphere - which makes sense to me - how can New Jeruselem be a sphere called Saturn if the City has a diameter of 818.1818 miles (which would give a surface area of about one fourth the size of the United States (50 states) and Saturn has a diameter of 74,600 miles??? - Also, is the diameter of Saturn the diameter of the planet including the atmosphere?? The diameter of the solid part of the planet could be much smaller).

I think foursquare indicates the same as four quarters. The Earth has four quarters. It's astronomical symbol is a circle with a cross in it. Rev. 20:8 says, "shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the FOUR QUARTERS of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle." However, in the Holy of Holies, the cube represented the sphere of Heaven that could be contained in the box. The Holy Place represented the 2 spheres (Mars and Jupiter) that could be contained in that double-cube space. Cubes can represent spheres.

I think that Saturn and New Jerusalem can have different sizes. The diameter of Saturn includes the atmosphere, because only recently have astronomers realized that it could have a rocky core. It is classed as a gas giant.

Ed and I were eating at Arby's one evening last spring. We saw 3 Steller Jays, at least that is what a scout in the neighborhood said they were. I had never seen one before. They had rather large bodies but very long thin legs. They were obviously father, mother, and baby. The parents took turns watching while the other one foraged for food and watched the baby. What amazed me was when the baby ran to the mother, it was completely hidden from view by the mother's feathers. Psa. 91:2-6 says, "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall COVER THEE WITH HIS FEATHERS, and UNDER HIS WINGS SHALT THOU TRUST: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday" (the asteroids strike at noon, Zeph. 2:4,5). Agape

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Re: Thank you!
Thank you for a job well done! I praise God for people like you.

I do my bit as well but in the Afrikaans language in South Africa. Yours in Christ Jesus

My reply

Thank you for letting me know. May God guide you in all that you do. There is great need here, there and everywhere. Christ Jesus is salvation for the whole world, if they only knew it. Agape

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You have mentioned before that the pope will be the False Prophet. It seems to me that this current pope (John Paul) is a good man, a rightous man that loves the Lord. If the rapture is to take place before May 28, should we be watching the health of John Paul and do you have an inkling as to the replacement for him. This seems to be worth watching. Your thoughts please.

My reply

There are 2 beasts in Rev. 13. I think the 1st one will be the Tribulation Pope. I don't know if it will be this one or the next one. I don't know who will be the next one, either. He will probably be head over One World Government and United Religions. Rev. 13:7,8 says, "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life."

When the False Prophet becomes Satan possessed Mid-Trib, the 2nd beast will "exerciseth all the power of the first beast" (v. 12). Therefore, the False Prophet will head up the One World Government and United Religions. All 7 heads of the great red dragon have upon their head "THE NAME OF BLASPHEMY" (Rev. 13:1). I think this name is "PONTIFEX MAXIMUS." This name has been on the heads of the world empires all the way from Babel to our times. It was used in the Mystery Religion of Babylon, Satan's counterfeit religion that got mixed in with Christianity when Constantine declared Christianity the state religion. He is said to have marched his army through the river to baptize them. Pagans were suddenly part of the Christian Church. Some of the pagan festivals were adapted to or mixed with Christian ones. Agape

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