Pro and Con 718

Posted 11-1-01

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You wrote in your web site about 2300 day's trubelation file://"On Earth, that day is the end of the shortened Tribulation, the Day of God's Wrath, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord, and the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:13,14)."

Here is a other way at looking to the prophecy that God gave us trough Daniel.

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice (the word sacrifice is supleid by the translators and thus not belong there the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text,) by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Qoute from a messenger of God "I was also shown a sanctuary upon the earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven, and I was told that it was a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The veil was lifted, and I looked into the holy of holies and saw that the furniture was the same as in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. The priest ministered in both apartments of the earthly. He went daily into the first apartment, but entered the most holy only once a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. The priests entered into the earthly with the blood of an animal as an offering for sin. Christ entered into the heavenly sanctuary by the offering of His own blood. The earthly priests were removed by death; therefore they could not continue long; but Jesus was a priest forever. Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come. And in the wisdom of God the particulars of this work were given us that we might, by looking to them, understand the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary."

"As Jesus died on Calvary, He cried, "It is finished," and the veil of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with the priests in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be offered by Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary. "

My reply

Using the year-day theory, William Miller figured that Christ would return in 1844. When it didn't happen, followers came up with the idea that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary to cleanse it in 1844. The Seventh Day Adventists grew out of that group. Think for yourself. Do you really think that the heavenly temple would need to be cleansed? Why isn't there anything about that in the Bible?

> > Qoute from a messenger of God..."As Jesus died on Calvary, He cried, "It is finished," and the veil of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with the priests in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be offered by Himself in the heavenly sanctuary. As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary. "

This is not reliable information. It is not worthy of your belief. If this was true, why isn't it in the Bible? Believe only what you find in the Bible. It is our only reliable source of real truth.

If "the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished," why does Zech. 6:12 say, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH (Christ); and he shall grow up out of his place, and HE SHALL BUILD THE TEMPLE of the LORD"? Why does Revelation 11:1,2 mention the temple? The setting there is the beginning of the Tribulation, when Moses and Elijah start their 1260 days of prophesying. If "the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished," why does Zech. 14:16 say, "it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."? Don't you think the sacrifices on the Feast of Tabernacles require a temple?

Why did Ezekiel 40f give instructions for a future temple? Don't let someone tell you what to believe without checking it out in Scripture to see if those things are so. This does not square with the Bible, so it is not to be believed.

> > Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice ( the word sacrifice is supleid by the translators and thus not belong there the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text

I checked out Dan. 8:12-14 in several versions of the Bible. Most supply the word "sacrifice." What else do you think the "daily" at the "sanctuary" would be? We have the same situation in Dan. 12:11. It says, "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." What do you think the "daily" is there? In Nu. 29:6, we have the same word used in "daily burnt offering." The same word is used in Dan. 8:31. It says, "arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." What would they take away from the "sanctuary" that was daily if not the daily sacrifice? Agape

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Re: sanctuary
...13-16: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks (her is Christ standing in the Holy Place)one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength....

(john saw Christ there in the Holy place)
how com aprox 60 years after Christ deid John saw him first in the heavenly temple in the first compartment.?

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Le 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Here we see that this angel is not other then Christ our Highpriest (Rev 8:3)

Here i see Christ in the most holy place before the throne the final work is done and He trows the golden censer to the earth and the job is complete .

So you can see that it is truth.

Heb 9:8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

(here we see that if Christ went not to the most Holy place after his assension because the first temple still stood on the earth till aprox 70 A.D

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

(ARE we not living in the end of the world?)or the time of the end.
{but we are not living in the end of time."}(if it was the end of time we would not be here no more.
we are living in the time of the end, there is a difference end of time or tim of the end.

My reply

> > 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks (her is Christ standing in the Holy Place)one like unto the Son of man,

***From Marilyn: I don't believe that? Do you? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is when we see Christ after the Rapture. The book of Revelation is written as if the Rapture was at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). It is a dramatic production. Like our movie directors, Jesus started off with a Preview of coming events. This Preview in Rev. 1 shows Christ in Heaven right after the Rapture has taken place. The candlesticks are the churches, and they are all around him. He still has the star achievers in his hand for he has just snatched them up. It does not say that he is in the Holy Place. He would not be in the literal Holy Place in the temple with that many saints around him, would he? It probably wouldn't hold that many people.

> > 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; > > (john saw Christ there in the Holy place)

***Rev. 1:19 means "Write the things which thou has seen (before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter ("hereafter" the Rapture, Rev. 4:1).

> > how com aprox 60 years after Christ deid John saw him first in the heavenly temple in the first compartment.???

***He didn't. You are reading that into the verse, but I doesn't say that. The word "temple" is not used there at all.

> > Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Le 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:

***Rev. 8:3-5 does not say that the angel brought it within the vail. After offering up the incense that is a symbol of the prayers of all saints, "the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and CAST IT INTO THE EARTH: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." This is a symbol of the asteroids hitting Earth. It has nothing to do with bringing it "within the vail."

> > Here we see that this angel is not other then Christ our Highpriest (Rev 8:3)
> > Here i see Christ in the most holy place before the throne the final work is done and He trows the golden censer to the earth and the job is complete.
> > So you can see that it is truth.

***I sure don't think it is the truth. Christ is God. This is the Judgment Seat of Christ. He is the one before whom the angel with the censer comes. Although the angel of the LORD in the Old Testament was the Pre-incarnate Christ, I don't think this angel is Christ.

> > Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
> > ( here we see that if Christ went not to the most Holy place after his assension because the first temple still stood on the earth till aprox 70 A.

***Why was the veil of the temple torn? It was to show that the way into the holiest of all was then made manifest in 30 AD. The Holy of Holies represented Heaven. The way to get to Heaven is by accepting Christ. Believers that died between 30 AD and 70 AD still went to Heaven. They did not have to wait until the temple was burned in 70 AD.

> > Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
> > (ARE we not living in the end of the world?)or the time of the end.
> > {but we are not living in the end of time."}(if it was the end of time we would not be here no more.}
> > we are living in the time of the end ,there is a difference end of time or tim of the end.

***Heb 9:26 says, now once in the end of the world (lit., consummation of the ages) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. There are three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church. The Age of the Church had already begun.

***We are living near the end of the Age of the Church. The Pre-Trib Rapture is near. The Tribulation is near. I think that the Jews will sacrifice during the first half of the Tribulation. Then Mid-Trib, the Satan-possessed False Prophet will desecrate the temple. At that time, the sacrificing will stop.

***Dan. 8:13,14 literally has evenings and mornings instead of "days." This shows that they are ordinary 24-hour days, not years. Days have evenings and mornings. Years don't. V. 26 says, "the vision of the EVENING and the MORNING which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

***Verse 17 says, "at the time of the end shall be the vision." That is in our days. The many days of v. 26 stretches all the way to when the False Prophet "shall stand up against the Prince of princes" (Christ) (v. 25). Therefore the vision of the evening and the morning could not have begun in 457 BC and ended in 1844. The False Prophet won't be revealed until he confirms the covenant of Dan. 9:27. Agape

My reply

The way ...I understand the Feast of Unleavened Bread is that Nisan 15 is the first of the 7 days of unleavened bread. Lev. 23:6 says, "on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread." Thus, Nisan 16 is the second day. Josephus said, "on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month..." (Ant. III.X. 5). Nisan 17 is the third day. Nisan 18 is the fourth day. Nisan 19 is the fifth day. Nisan 20 is the sixth day. Nisan 21 is the seventh day. The 15th and the 21st are holy convocations

Incoming email

Re: Jesus' second coming?
I have been introduced to a view that states that Jesus has already returned. I was presented with this verse:
Matthew 16:27 (NKJV) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

In light of the fact that Jesus does not lie and Him telling His disciples that there were some standing there that would not die until the Son of Man would come. How do you account for a future coming of Christ?

Another passage that was brought to my attention is:

Matthew 10:5 (NKJV)

5These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Later in the same chapter Jesus tells His disciples:

Matthew 10:23 (NKJV) When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

My two questions to you from these two verses are:
1. What is Jesus referring to in verse 7 when He says "The kingdom of heaven is at hand"?
2. What is Jesus referring to in verse 23 in regards to "the Son of Man comes"? And then if these two verses are in the same context how can you explain a future coming being that our Lord does not lie? Thanks

My reply

This is the way I understand these verses.
> > 27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mt. 16:27 is the Second Advent, when he comes in glory and every eye will see him. Rev. 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." There is no possible way that this has already taken place. It is not a secret event. It will be known to the whole world.

The reward according to works is the Judgment of the Nations. Mt. 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Mt. 16:28 refers to the Transfiguration, which follows in Mt. 17:1f. At that time, Peter, James and John saw him in glory, as he will be in his kingdom. With him were Moses and Elijah. Moses represents those who have passed into the kingdom through death. Elijah represents those who are raptured without having to die. I wonder too, if Moses and Elijah will sit on the right and left of Christ in his kingdom. That would explain why he didn't say that any of the apostles could sit on his right and left.

> > go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

As long as Christ was on Earth, the kingdom of heaven was at hand. If they had accepted him as King, it would have been set up then. They had that chance.

> > 23When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

It is probably referring to the coming of the Spirit of Christ at Pentecost. Rom. 8:9 shows that the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ. It says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." In Heb. 13:5, Jesus said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." In John 16:7, he said, "I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The Spirit of Christ came to indwell them at Pentecost. He departed and then came as the Spirit of Christ.

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible says, "till the son of man be come; which is not to be understood of his second coming to judgment, but either of his resurrection from the dead, when he was declared to be the Son of God, and when his glorification began; or of the pouring forth of the Spirit at the day of Pentecost, when his kingdom began more visibly to take place, and he was made, or manifested to be the Lord and Christ; or of his coming to take vengeance on his enemies, that would not have him to rule over them, and the persecutors of his ministers, at the destruction of Jerusalem."

The coming of Christ in glory with all his saints (Zech. 14:5) and angels is still future. Agape

Incoming email

Re: TEMPLE
YOU WROTE ---If "the services of the earthly sanctuary were forever finished," why does Zech. 6:12 say, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH (Christ); and he shall grow up out of his place, and HE SHALL BUILD THE TEMPLE of the LORD"? Why does Revelation 11:1,2 mention the temple?

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;{ and HE SHALL BUILD THE TEMPLE of the LORD } 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Re 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. forty and two months = 1260 DAY'S = ONE DAY FOR A YEAR = 1260 YEARS THATS THE TIME PAPAL ROME RULED FROM 538 T0 1798 = 1260 YEARS PRECISE

My reply

Re: Rev. 11:1: could John measure the spiritual temple of God? I don't think so. Do you? Could the spiritual temple have an altar for sacrifices? I don't think so. Christ is our sacrifice.

Re: Rev. 11:2: if the court of the temple is in Jerusalem, why wouldn't the rest of the temple be in Jerusalem?

Re: Rev. 11:3: these days can't be years. Moses and Elijah were not prophesying from 538 to 1798. They were not killed, resurrected or caught up to heaven in 1798 either. This day-for-a-year theory won't stand up to careful scrutiny. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Septennium to start soon
I just wanted you to know I found your sight via the Bible Code. Agee was listed in the Hebrew year that crosses 2001-2002, but there was no meaning to it. I did a search on Hotbot and Wow there is your site popping out at me. Now I know, God is acknowledging your good works. I also found Septennium, which means 7 year period. Could the Tribulation start this year? I found the recent Stock Market crash in the same area 2 weeks before it happened. God Bless. Sincerely

My reply

I appreciate your letting me know. The Jewish year 5762 (2001-2002) does not start until next fall. I'm hoping we are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001), Pentecost, but if not, I will wait patiently. The Lord knows best in all cases.

Pentecost is also the Feast of Weeks, a perfect time for the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 to start. There are 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14), counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, between this next Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). That looks like the shortened Tribulation to me. We should know soon. The last year has to be a Jewish Leap Year to have 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13) between Tishri 1, Day of God's Wrath, and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1. The year 5768 is a leap year.

We all need to get ready, confess all known sins since we accepted Christ (I John 1:9). We need to be wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit (Mt. 25:1f). With the sin barrier out of the way, the Holy Spirit will rise in us like a fountain of living water. We also need to take a look at II Peter 1:4-11 for things we should add to our faith. Verse 4 says "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature." That's perfect. We want to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Keep watching. Agape

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Re: record of genealogy of Jesus
Can you please shed some light on this. According to Matthew " .. there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ." According to Luke there were 54 generations from Abraham to Christ. Now from Abraham to king David they both got it right but after that, which is wrong and if one is wrong, why is it in the Bible cause I believe everything in the Bible to be true. Jesus , Joseph , (Heli or Jacob) , from here every thing differ up to king David. Why? Please help. Thanks.

My reply

i: The original MSS of the Bible were 100% true. Our translations, unfortunately, do have a few errors. When they found Isaiah in the Qumran Caves, they found our KJV translation reliable. Isa. 53:9 did have reversed words. Instead of "he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death," the Isaiah scroll said that he made his grave with the rich, and was with the wicked in his death. That is not bad, when you consider how many scribes had to copy this over and over through the years.

Matthew 1 gives us the genealogy of Joseph, Jesus' stepfather, because Joseph was in the line of the kings. He was descended from David. Mt. 1:16 says, "Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

Luke 3 gives us the genealogy of Mary, whose father was Heli. She was also descended from king David. Joseph was the son-in-law of Heli. He was not begotten of Heli. The genealogies are given according to the males in the line, so this is basically the genealogy of Heli, Mary's father. This one goes all the way back to Noah and then on to Seth and Adam. Notice how it ends, "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." No wonder the greater Son of God was called the second Adam.

It also shows why the angels are called sons of God (Gen. 6:4, Job 1:6; 2:1). They are each created by God, as was Adam. We will be sons of God by adoption. Agape

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