Pro and Con 720

Posted 3-30-01

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Re: This is how I see it
In P&C 715 a reader wrote you and basically said that they didn't think anyone who is truly saved will be left behind in the first rapture to try to make it to the second rapture. Basically, this doesn't negate the 2 rapture doctrine at all - the tribulation saints will be raptured prior to the moment of Gods wrath striking the earth - 2300 days into the tribulation. However, this theory of saved people being left behind is fairly new and needs much closer scrutiny.

Most of what you have previously explained through this website I have followed and understood and it has edified me and my family greatly (THANK YOU!!!). However, this topic of "saved born again people" being left behind for punishment/chastisement because they didn't have enough of the spirit in them to be "1st rapture worthy" needs A LOT more looking into. I somehow think we are either missing something or ADDING what shouldn't be there in the first place.

This is pretty much how I see it. I keep thinking of the letters to the 7 churches in the beginning of Revelation - ALL 7 churches have a single word in common pertaining to the promise which was offered - the word, which is the verb here is "OVERCOMETH". Even the Philadelphian church offers a promise to the one who overcomes:

c3v12 "Him that OVERCOMETH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Notice - even though the Philadelphian church was not told specifically to repent of anything - they still need to be an overcomer to gain the promises of God however.

"Him that overcometh" is said to all 7 churches whether they were told to repent of anything or not. If you're not an "overcomer" than you can also forget about the 7 promises that go to the overcomers whether you are a "Philadelphian" or a "laodicean".

So does the bible say who an overcomer is? You betcha:
1 John c5 [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] WHO IS HE THAT OVERCOMETH THE WORLD, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? ONLY HE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

That's pretty straight forward...the bible defines the bible. That's pretty much it - that's as long of a list that I could find about who is an overcomer and who isn't.

What about this - here is an example of someone who confesses Christ before men being counted as one who overcomes:

Mathew c10v32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Luke c12v8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God

One of the above verses says Christ will confess that person before the Father and the other verse says before the angels of God. The following verse in Revelation Chap 3 ties them both together in a promise given to an "overcomer"
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

BTW - this was told to the Church of Sardis who was told to repent.

So someone who overcomes can be said to make "confession" with ones own mouth confessing Christ. But heck already, the word of God already says that!! Consider Romans c8: [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

...my point is this...The theory that saved "born again" believers are going to miss the rapture because they "are not counted worthy" to be found in the bride group really hangs its hat on one large assumption. The assumption is that in the parable of the 10 virgins all 10 of the virgins are "saved" or "born again". This same assumption in principle is also being applied to the 7 churches mentioned in chaps 2 & 3 of Revelation. The biggest example being the Laodicean Church. I'll illustrate using the following verses in Rev c3: [15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. [16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

These verses are used saying that this must be referring to saved people "because how could Christ spit something out of his mouth that wasn't already in him" so-to-speak. So for this whole doctrine of missing the 1st rapture to hold ANY WEIGHT or profitable instruction at all, would be to make the assumption that the parable of the 10 virgins, and all of the people the seven letters were written to HAD TO BE BORN AGAIN SAVED PEOPLE who were just screwing up so bad that Christ himself had to issue these written warnings to these people so that they wouldn't miss the bride group rapture. This just doesn't make much sense to me. The only two things in the ENTIRE bible that you could construe to even make this argument would be the letter written to the Laodicean Church and the parable of the 10 virgins. The letter written to the Laodicean Church is a "weak" assumption. To suggest these people are born again simply because of the illustration of Christ spitting them out is a stretch. The illustration tied together with the rest of what is said basically tells me that these people and their attitudes are sickening unto Christ. It further says the following: [17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

When we are saved - we are no longer wretched for we have the hope of salvation
When we are saved - we are no longer miserable for we have gained eternallife.
When we are saved - we are no longer poor for we are co-heirs with Christ.
When we are saved - we are no longer blind for we have seen the truth in Christ Jesus.
When we are saved - we are no longer naked but instead clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

Verse 17 has NOTHING to do with saved people - verse 17 says that these people are so bad they don't even recognize they're own sad condition. These are UNSAVED people. Not to mention that saved people have the Holy Spirit of God whom Christ sent 10 days after he ascended to help convict us when we are off the mark. Like the reader said in P&C 715 - saved people aren't comfortable in sin. Sound's like the people in verse 17 above are pretty comfortable and blind to their own condition. These are NOT saved people being referenced too.

Now as far as the parable of the 10 virgins. I completely disagree that simply because they are all called "virgins" they all must be saved. I think they are all called virgins because that's what a bridegroom would want to marry and it was appropriate for the times when Jesus told this story. What differentiates a saved virgin from an unsaved virgin is the oil (Holy Spirit) found in the lamp.

Consider the following verses Mathew c25 - [1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [3] They that were FOOLISH took their lamps, and TOOK NO OIL WITH THEM: [4] But the WISE TOOK OIL IN THEIR VESSELS with their lamps.

The difference being the oil or no oil. Saved people have the oil of the Holy Spirit and unsaved have NO OIL. It doesn't matter if you call them virgins or prostitutes - the difference from the very start of this parable is the wise ones took oil with them and the foolish didn't. I just think that this being a very symbolic story that the word virgin here is much more appropriate and obviously so did Jesus when he told the story. But to take this parable and to surmise a new doctrine out of it by suggesting that born again believers in Christ will be missing the 1st rapture because their lamps are too dim or have gone out is not scriptural as far as I can tell. This parable is about the kingdom of heaven and who's getting in and who isn't - NOT ABOUT WHEN. And as far as how the parable ends - [11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. [12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The door was shut - many unsaved people are going to see the 1st rapture and will readily recognize what has happened, and they too will be crying out to God wanting to go - but they won't have ANY oil prior to the 1st rapture.

John c10 [9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Here again is the requirement stated in yet another way in order to enter through the door - "he shall be saved". It doesn't say which door - it just says you must be saved. If you want to go through the first door, then get "born again" before the first rapture and confess Christ as your Lord and repent of your sin to the best of your ability - these are those who "overcometh" and will receive the promises given to the seven churches.

I really don't think it is any more complicated than this. If we start ADDING MEANING to these things without the bible itself interpreting it or defining it in other verses then we start getting into trouble. The entire new testament of the bible is centered on SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST and what this salvation means to us. And as far as I can tell, if you believe in the message, then you are accounted worthy to escape the things which are about to come to pass. Agape

My reply

Thanks for your kind words....

The overcomers are "CLOTHED IN WHITE RAIMENT." How do they get it? I think Rev. 7:14 shows us. There the Tribulation saints have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." To me, that means confessing our sins committed since we accepted Christ to bring them all under the blood of Christ, as in I John 1:9. This is not said of the Bride group seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. Don't you think that is because they have already confessed their sins before they were raptured"

> > [5] WHO IS HE THAT OVERCOMETH THE WORLD, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If one is saved, that means he will go to Heaven. However, it does not guarantee that he will go in the first rank.

> > [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It does not say which time this one will be raptured.

> > The assumption is that in the parable of the 10 virgins all 10 of the virgins are "saved" or "born again". This same assumption in principle is also being applied to the 7 churches mentioned in chaps 2 & 3 of Revelation.

Can you even imagine a nonbeliever saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us"? Nonbelievers don't call him Lord. In Rev. 2 and 3, Jesus' messages are to the ekklesias, called out ones. They are believers or they wouldn't be members of the ekklesias.

> > because how could Christ spit something out of his mouth that wasn't already in him

The Greek word is more explicit. It says, "emesai," vomit. They are unassimilated, but in the Body of Christ. Therefore, Jesus tells them, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Heb. 12:6 says, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

> > Verse 17 has NOTHING to do with saved people - verse 17 says that these people are so bad they don't even recognize they're own sad condition. These are UNSAVED people.

They are members of the ekklesia, so they are believers. They aren't that bad. They are just lukewarm and feel like you do, that they have it made. But Jesus tells them, "be zealous therefore, and repent."

> > The difference being the oil or no oil. Saved people have the oil of the Holy Spirit and unsaved have NO OIL.

The foolish virgins' lamps are lit. The Concordant Literal Bible says, "are going out." The RSV says, "And the foolish said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." All these say going out: ASV, BBE, Darby, Weymouth, Young, and that is just a quick check. I could find more. Their lamps are threatening to go out, but they are lit. They have some oil. Therefore, they are believers. That is their sealing until the day of redemption, which can be at the 1st Rapture or at the 2nd one. Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

> > And as far as I can tell, if you believe in the message, then you are accounted worthy to escape the things which are about to come to pass.

And as far as the Laodiceans can tell, if they believe in the message, then they are accounted worthy to escape the things which are about to come to pass. Too bad they will have to learn their lesson the hard way when in the Tribulation with the unbelievers. Mt. 24:51 adds, "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 22:1f tells how a man having not on a wedding garment was cast outside the doors, and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Besides confessing our sins since we accepted Christ, II Peter 1:4-11 gives a list of things to add to our faith that we "might be partakers of the divine nature" (Holy Spirit) and says, "he that lacketh these things is blind (a Laodicean), and CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye ahall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." These things to add to our faith are virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity (agape love).

No matter how we see it, we would be wise if we got ready just in case. Remember how John the Baptist preached repentance before Christ was revealed? Agape

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Re: This is how I see it
thanks for responding. I can certainly understand either interpretation of the parable of the 10 virgins. The points I have presented are pretty mainstream - I would guess most people who are aware of this parable, who have read it for themselves would understand the meaning of it to be it's about who's going with the bridegroom (saved vs unsaved) - not about when their going, 1st rapture or 2nd rapture. I question these things primarily because this interpretation is being revealed at such a late hour. I know of NO church (televised or local) that teaches this. I've only been able to come across this discussion primarily because of this website. It doesn't mean it's incorrect, on the contrary, it deserves its due diligence.

>> In Rev. 2 and 3, Jesus' messages are to the ekklesias, called out ones. They are believers or they wouldn't be members of the >> ekklesias.

That's the first I've ever heard of the word ekklesias and the meaning. And if it means "called out ones" then this puts an entire different light on the letters to the seven churches. My KJV and NIV doesn't translate to give this meaning or interpretation. Basically it's not as clear as "called out ones". Now the argument made using the Laodicians makes MUCH MORE SENSE.

>> They aren't that bad. They are just lukewarm and feel like you do, that they have it made. But Jesus tells them, "be zealous >> therefore, and repent."

I am 100% assured of my salvation. Secondly, I am a watcher and always have been since my salvation. I wouldn't have found your website unless I wasn't looking to find something descent to partake in concerning end-time events and prophecies. I've been looking for the end-time signs and trying to understand the meanings of Bible prophecy for about 15 years now. I can testify to the purifying effects of watching. I understand the importance of repentance - not just saying sorry but actually making effort to turn from the sin through the power of the spirit. I understood these things before comming to this website. But this idea of saved people not making it isn't out there and that's what bothers me most. A lot of people debate when the "one rapture" is going to be (pre/mid/post) or if there will even be a rapture. These have never been questions in my mind. I have always been sure of at least one rapture - pretribulation (and thanks to your site I'm now sure there will be two). When I read about the possibility of saved people not being raptured in the first harvest (about 6mos ago) I was a little unnerved quite honestly. It made me question everything about myself - including my own readiness. This in turn has made me look in my Bible to find these things for myself. However I am starting to learn that I am at a disadvantage by not having the real words used and their original meanings. What would you recommend as the minimums to have when trying to study the bible? I have a KJV and an NIV and I use an online bible search. This just ain't getting it anymore. What tools should we be using to glean information from these scriptures and to gain understanding (besides the Holy Spirit)?

>> The foolish virgins' lamps are lit. The Concordant Literal Bible says, "are going out." The RSV says, "And the foolish said to the >> wise, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." All these say going out: ASV, BBE, Darby, Weymouth, Young, >> and that is just a quick check. I could find more. Their lamps are threatening to go out, but they are lit. They have some oil. >> Therefore, they are believers.

I guess I just get hung up on the part that says [3] They that were FOOLISH took their lamps, and TOOK NO OIL WITH THEM. To me no oil just means they didn't have any oil. But later after checking it out further it does say that their lamps "are going out". They must have had oil in them or it wouldn't have said that - it would have said they could'nt get their lamps lit - or something.

>>Besides confessing our sins since we accepted Christ, II Peter 1:4-11 gives a list of things to add to our faith that we "might be >>partakers of the divine nature" (Holy Spirit) and says, "he that lacketh these things is blind (a Laodicean), and CANNOT SEE >>AFAR OFF (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the >>rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye ahall never fall: >>For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

All I can say is, and I speak for myself and my family, is that if we were to miss the 1st rapture it would definately break our hearts. There has been no greater hope in us for quite some time then possibly being "called up to meet our Lord in the air". So hearing that not everyone is going definately sounded an alarm in our house - it pretty much bummed us out and took away some of that hope that we are worthy enough to go. We started to think "maybe were not going after all", "maybe our garments aren't as white as we think". You know what strikes me most though, is that I KNOW I'm not even worthy of the salvation which has been bestowed upon me as a free gift of Christ (yet I still accept it!!) - what makes me think, or any of us for that matter, that we would be worthy enough to miss this comming trial/judgement upon the earth when not one of us even deserves the gift of salvation?? Tough to grapple with in any event. I surmise our only hope lies in the following:

My prayer for my family: [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

My prayer for you and your family: [11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: [12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And all of us should continue to the best of our ability to try to remember: [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

>>No matter how we see it, we would be wise if we got ready just in case. Remember how John the Baptist preached repentance >>before Christ was revealed?

Good point and I agree. Agape

My reply

Thayer has "called out or forth" for ekklesia. For Heb. 12:22-24, Green's Interlinear has "But you have COME UP to Mount Zion and to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to a countless company of angels, to the general gathering (festal assembly, Thayer) and church (ekklesia, called forth ones) of the FIRST-BORN, who are written in Heaven--and to Jesus." These FIRST-BORN are the ones that are caught up at the first trump of God in I Thess. 4:16,17.

It sounds like you are ready. That is the thing of paramount importance now. Other things take second place to that.

> > What would you recommend as the minimums to have when trying to study the bible?

I could never have understood half of what I do if I didn't have Strong's Concordance. In the early days of my studies, a friend of mine loaned me hers. It got so I had it so much, I felt bad about her not getting to use it, but we couldn't afford any extras. Finally, my daughter and her husband, who couldn't really afford it either, gave me half the price of a new one for my birthday. We managed the rest somehow and I've never regretted it a minute. It is the best tool I have found. I have Young's too now and don't use it nearly as much. I had Cruden's at one time and finally gave it away. Go for Strong's. The BIOLA students that came to my house to study the Bible with me said that there was a saying around school, Strong's for the strong, Young's for the young, and Cruden's for the crude."

> > To me no oil just means they didn't have any oil. But later after checking it out further it does say that their lamps "are going out". They must have had oil in them or it wouldn't have said that

Yes. If they took their lamps in the first place, they must have been lit. Gone out is the Greek sbennumi, to suppress. Sometimes chapter headings can keep us from seeing the whole picture too. That was true for me in understanding that Dan. 12 was at the end of the shortened Tribulation and not in the middle. I had to read the last verse in chapter 11 to see it correctly. In this case, Jesus started referring to the Rapture in Mt. 24. He mentioned the doors, which stand for the 2 Raptures. He told how it would be as the days of Noah, one taken and the other left. Then he contrasted the "faithful and WISE servant" with the "evil servant."

Referring to the evil servant, Jesus said, "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The weeping and gnashing of teeth reminds us of the parable of the marriage feast in Mt. 22. The man without a wedding garment was cast outside the door, where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."

After the weeping and gnashing of teeth in Mt. 24:51, the next word out of his mouth was "Then," meaning at the same time that the evil servant was cut off. The Greek word translated "Then" in Mt. 25:1 is tote, meaning at the same time. Therefore, the parable of the 10 virgins takes place at the same time that the evil servent gets cut off. It is a time of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mt. 25:7 says, "Then (tote, at the same time) all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps." All their lamps were lit, i.e., they were all believers.

Verse 10 is interesting. It says, "while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage (gamos, marriage festival, i.e., as in Mt. 22): and the door was shut." This is one reason I think the Rapture will be on a feast day. Another reason is Heb. 12:23, where "general assembly" means a festal assembly (Thayer).

> > if we were to miss the 1st rapture it would definately break our hearts.

Ours too. I am watching and praying that all of our family will be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are coming upon the world. Paul felt that way too. In I Cor. 9:27, he said, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." In Phil. 3:14, he said, "I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the high calling of God (the 'Come up hither' of Rev. 4:1) in Christ Jesus."

After the parable of the 10 virgins, Jesus was still dealing with the same subject. He "called his own servants" (i.e., believers), and gave them talents. When he came, the "wicked and slothful servant" had his talent taken away from him. In Mt. 25:30, Jesus said, "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (outside the door darkness): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The weeping and gnashing of teeth ties it in to Mt. 24:51 and Mt. 22:13. Mt. 22:14 warns, "many are called, but few are chosen." In Rev. 17:14, we see that "they that are with him (Christ, right after the Rapture) are called, and chosen, and faithful." That is our goal, to be called, and chosen, and faithful." Agape

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Re: Love Your Website!
I recently ran across your website and was "locked on" afterward - (still am!) I thank God for all of your hard work and research ~ it has been instrumental in "tightening up our garments" in our preparations to meet Him!

While we are making sure we are "purified", a larger concern of ours was "leaving a testimony" in our home, and our obvious preparations to be made for loved ones and friends we are pretty sure will be left behind. We have used the "signs of the times" to get our debts paid, build our christian library, and set up a website.

This is where I may have another "piece" of the puzzle for you - in regard to your "two witnesses". Please click on my website link below and go to "The Two Witnesses" page...I look forward to hearing from you...!

My reply

> > We will be bold in our Theory of The Two Witnesses being Enoch and Elijah!
> > Moses Has Done Enough Already...wouldn't you think? So musical bodies and inconsistency of purpose is out. Moses, who has experienced death (Deut. 34:7) would have been imputed with "incorruption" by God after the Resurrection. Then God would have to replace that with "corruption" again to send Moses back to earth to die AGAIN, to then replace "corruption" once again with "incorruption"...do you see where this line of thought is going? Nowhere. If Moses were even to be seriously considered, and God went through all of the above to make Moses one of the Two Witnesses, then that leaves us with a clear problem with scripture. We'd still have Enoch, clothed in "corruption", who has never died, hanging around somewhere in Heaven. God will not go against His own Word, and is not the God of confusion. He's already got two qualified prophets armed with the message of the (end) times to God's specific audience -the Jews, still clothed in "corruption".

From Marilyn:
Enoch was a Gentile. These witnesses are both to prophesy in Israel. Moses is an Israelite. Jer. 11:16 says of Israel, "The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree."

What if those are not things that God absolutely has to do to bring Moses back? All things are possible with God. And, why did Satan dispute with Michael about the body of Moses in Jude 9?

I think the Bible shows us that the witness is Moses. Rev. 11:4 says, "THESE ARE THE TWO OLIVE TREES, and the two candlesticks (i.e., believers, Rev. 1:20) standing before the God of the earth." Is Enoch ever called an olive tree? No.

Take a good look at Zech. 4:2-14. It says, "behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And TWO OLIVE TREES by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying...WHAT ARE THESE TWO OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, THESE ARE THE TWO ANOINTED ONES THAT STAND BY THE LORD of the whole earth."

Both Moses and Elijah stood before the God of the Earth at the Transfiguration. Nothing like this is said of Enoch.

In Rev. 11:6, the two witnesses have power "to smite the earth with all plagues," as Moses did in Egypt. Did Enoch ever do such?

Luke 16:29-31 says, "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." It seems to me that bringing Moses back from the dead will prove the point. Agape

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