Pro and Con 721

Posted 3-30-01

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Re: Origins of AC
I have become an avid reader of your P & C's since I discovered your site about two months ago, and you have cleared up my mind on several long-standing confusions I've had for years. Bless you.

Maybe you can help me with this one. There are many different views from where the Antichrist will emerge; most people generally agree that this individual comes out of a 'sea'....either one of chaos, or more specifically one of the Gentile nations. The APOCALYPTIC HOPE website (www.discover.net/~ajgood) seems to feel that this individual comes from a Western democracy.

My understanding is a little different, and comes from listening to a broadcast ministry in Southern California back in the 1980's. There was a ministry called Faith Temple in Glendale, CA, run by a Dr. Gene Scott, and his explanations were heavily accented by historical fact and close examination of the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words. According to Dr. Scott, the Antichrist will emerge from a modern day country whose territory was once a part of the Seleucid portion of the ancient Greek Empire. Seleucia covered what is now eastern Greece, southern Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and western Iran.

I can't recall the scriptural references for this view, and I'm having trouble finding where this view came from. Can you help with this?

In addition, the Discover.net web site feels that the 2nd Beast, False Prophet, emerges from organized social government, rather than the usually read view that he comes out of an ecclesiastical background. Help with this, too?

Thank you in advance.....your explanations are very thorough, and checking into your site has become a part of my daily routine.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. Also, before I get into this, let me explain something. I don't often use the term Antichrist, because some people call the 1st beast of Rev. 13 the Antichrist. Others, like me, think that the Satan-possessed False Prophet is the final Antichrist. Therefore, I try to call the first beast of Rev. 13 the Beast and call the 2nd beast of Rev. 13 the False Prophet, as the Bible does in Rev. 20:10.

> > Antichrist will emerge from a modern day country whose territory was once a part of the Seleucid portion of the ancient Greek Empire. Seleucia covered what is now eastern Greece, southern Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and western Iran. I can't recall the scriptural references for this view, and I'm having trouble finding where this view came from. Can you help with this?

I would agree with that area if we are talking about the False Prophet. The view probably came from Daniel. In 8:22, we can see that Alexander the Great's empire was split up between 4 of his generals, Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cassandra, and Lysimachus. Then Dan. 8:23-25 says, "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance (the False Prophet), and understanding dark sentences (because he is Satan-possessed), shall stand up (Mid-Trib). And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Christ); but he shall be broken without hand."

> > this individual comes out of a 'sea'....either one of chaos, or more specifically one of the Gentile nations.

I think the beast seen rising out of the sea is the great red dragon we saw in Rev. 12:3. There he had 7 crowns upon his heads. That means that there it is talking about Mid-Trib, when the False Prophet is crowned. He is the 7th head.

However, chapter 13 goes back to the beginning of the Tribulation. The sea does stand for "Peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Rev. 17:15). Here the dragon has 7 heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns. The 10 kings are crowned as the Tribulation begins. The 6th head is the Beast, the first ruler of Rev. 13. The 7th head is the False Prophet, the 2nd ruler of Rev. 13.

The great red dragon's heads represent leaders of world empires. Rev. 17 is written as if the Rapture has just taken place. Those that "are with him (Christ) are called, and chosen, and faithful" (v. 14). Rev. 17:10 says, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh (Mid-Trib), he must continue a short space (the Great Tribulation is shortened). The 5 empires that have fallen are Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. I think the king that "IS" when the Rapture happens is the Tribulation Pope. He will probably be head of One World Government and United Religions. To me, he is the Beast of Rev. 13:4-10. The other that is not yet come is the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18.

> > Discover.net web site feels that the 2nd Beast, False Prophet, emerges from organized social government, rather than the usually read view that he comes out of an ecclesiastical background. Help with this, too?

On this I can only guess. He may be a sleeper that surprises us all. He seems to be a Jew of the tribe of Dan. Since the priests are of the tribe of Levi, it seems more likely that he will be a leader of the government of Israel. He is called a king too (Dan. 8:23). So far, the Prime Minister has been the one to deal with peace agreements. The False Prophet is to confirm the covenant with many (Dan. 9:27). They could be member nations of the OWG. Agape

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We bring bikkurim at various time. We begin to bring barley bikkurim on Nisan 16, wheat bikkurim on Sivan 6, and the other five species during the remainder of the year, till Chanukah.

There is no "feast" of bikkurim, but there is a day called "Yom HaBikkurim" - The Day of The Firstfruits. Yom HaBikkurim is the same as Hag Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks, which falls on Sivan 6. Yom HaBikkurim is also the atzeret or conclusion of Pesach - Passover.

we are commanded to count the days between Pesach and Shavuot and Shavuot stands in the same relationship to Pesach as Shemini atzeret stands to Succoth. Therefore, Shavuot is the conclusion of Pesach.

Now, His Majesty King Yeshua was raised on Nisan 17, which is that year replaced Nisan 16 due to the Shabbat. Never the less, Nisan 16 is normally the date for bringing the barley bikkurim.

We, outside of eretz Israel, observe Yom Tovim of Pesach on Nisan 15, 16, 21, and 22. In eretz Israel, they observe the Yom Tovim on Nisan 15 and 21.

My reply

Thanks very much for giving me the picture from the Jewish point of view. I'll give you my thoughts as I think this through. I am trying hard to understand the feasts correctly. They are "mikraw," something called out, an assembly, a rehearsal, for important events that would take place on down the line. I have some questions that I am seeking answers for. Maybe you will have access to things I do not that can help me understand better.

> > There is no "feast" of bikkurim, but there is a day called "Yom HaBikkurim" - The Day of The Firstfruits.

I don't understand why it is not a feast day. Do you have any idea why? Lev. 23:2,4 introduces the feasts. It says, "Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts...These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons." Firstfruits is listed in verses 9 through 14. Lev. 23:37 also says, "These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations."

> > Feast of Weeks, which falls on Sivan 6...we are commanded to count the days between Pesach and Shavuot

The Talmudic Jewish Calendar lists Pesach on Nisan 15. This makes Nisan 16 the first day of counting the omer. That seems right. Nisan 15 is actually "the feast of unleavened bread" (Le. 23:6) from which to count off the weeks (Lev. 23:15,16).

Do you have any idea why the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Firstfruits are omitted on the Talmudic Jewish Calendar?

Since Lev. 23:5 says, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover," do you know why Passover isn't listed on the 14th? We know that "at even" means the beginning of the 14th, because Lev. 23:32 says of the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10), "in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Therefore, the Passover seems like it should be celebrated on Nisan 14, from the even of Nisan 13 to the even of Nisan 14.

> > Now, His Majesty King Yeshua was raised on Nisan 17, which is that year replaced Nisan 16 due to the Shabbat. Never the less, Nisan 16 is normally the date for bringing the barley bikkurim.

I love the way you put that--"His Majesty King Yeshua." May He bless you greatly and put a crown on your head too (Rev. 3:11).

I think His resurrection was on Nisan 16 in 30 AD. It seems to me that he was crucified at 9 AM and died about 3 PM on Thursday, Nisan 13, "the preparation of the passover" (John 19:14). It was "Not on the feast day" (Mark 14:2). He was to rise on the "third day" (Luke 9:22; 24:7), and Sunday was "the third day since these things were done" (Luke 24:21). Those days would be Friday, Saturday and Sunday. As the sign of Jonah, he was "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 10:40). Those were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday (night).

> > In eretz Israel, they observe the Yom Tovim on Nisan 15 and 21.

That seems right to me, and I understand why extra days were added for those outside of eretz Israel. News traveled slowly in the first century. The people wanted to be sure to hit the right day. Shalom and agape

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From S. Africa. Re: Millennium Question

Marilyn: Why is the group that comes out of Great Tribulation a direct fulfilment of the verse about the martyrs? The martyrs have to "rest yet for a little season." The great multitude do not. The martyrs have to die for their faith. Not all of the great multitude are martyrs, only a segment "that should be killed as they were." The 144,000 do not seem to be martyrs.

Me:And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Here it clearly says that those martyrs have to rest for a season UNTIL THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS ARE KILLED AS THEY WERE. I agree that the 144k are not martyred as there is no scripture that says so and therefor I think that they will be part of the group that populates the millennium along with the tribulation saints who were not killed during this time. These are all natural bodied people and I think that they will only receive a resurrection body at the end of the millennium.(ie. the second ressurection)

Marilyn:These do. Mt. 25:34-40 says, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Me: It is true that there will be unbelievers and sinners during the millennium, but they clearly do not ENTER the millenium. Marilyn are you saying that unbelievers will enter the millennium? "Come ye blessed of my Father" does not sound like an unbeliever to me, perhaps you read my question incorrectly. 2 Thess. 1:78; 2:12: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. When Christ said ALL I think he meant ALL. Whether trib saints were raptured or killed they do not possess a natural body, in my view they will reign with Christ along with the Church group. Not as His bride because that is the previledge of the Church, but they will be invited guests that will attend the marriage supper.

Marilyn: Where is the throne of God, where the sun doesn't light on them, nor any heat? This is the Day of God's Wrath (6:17), 7 months (Dan. 8:13,14) before the Second Advent (Rev.19:11f). Where do you think they are located? How do you think they got there?

Me: In reply to your questions above : The throne of God is in heaven now but (Rev 21;!0) says that it will descend out of heaven. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. The sun does not light on them as stated in (Rev:21;23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. I think that you may still be missing my point though. Here we see that the martyrs are going to live and reign with Christ for the thousand years. They will have a resurrection body as they have lost their natural bodies through death. We have lost our natural bodies at the rapture. (Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are all part of the first ressurection. So the people who have come through the tribulation and have not lost their lives plus the 144k are in my view the people of the new millennium, they are natural bodied people, this is why it is very difficult for me to envisage a second rapture of believers as this will leave no believers for the millennium period. Thank you once again for your time and effort, your sister in Christ.

My reply

> > I agree that the 144k are not martyred as there is no scripture that says so and therefore I think that they will be part of the group that populates the millennium along with the tribulation saints who were not killed during this time. These are all natural bodied people and I think that they will only receive a resurrection body at the end of the millennium.(ie. the second ressurection)

I think the 144,000 are part of the Bride of Christ. They "WERE redeemed FROM THE EARTH." They sing "as it were a new song before the throne" in Heaven. They "are virgins," "firstfruits unto God and the Lamb." They are "without fault before the throne of God" in Heaven just before the angel flies in the midst of the heavens preaching the gospel "unto them that dwell on the earth." (Rev. 14:3-6).

The 144,000 are part of the group caught up at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51-54). Their bodies are changed. They become immortal along with us. "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

> > It is true that there will be unbelievers and sinners during the millennium, but they clearly do not ENTER the millenium. Marilyn are you saying that unbelievers will enter the millennium?

No, but there will be those that accepted Christ too late to be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I think the Judgment of the Nations is about 2 weeks after the Second Advent, after the full 2520 days of the Tribulation have passed. All should believe in him at that point, if not before. Every eye will see him return. Re. 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and ALL kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."

> > 2 Thessalonians 1:78; 2:12: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. When Christ said ALL I think he meant ALL.

He qualified it. It is only those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness that are damned. How about those that believed not, but helped the Jews in their time of trouble? (Mt. 25:32f).

> > So the people who have come through the tribulation and have not lost their lives plus the 144k are in my view the people of the new millennium, they are natural bodied people, this is why it is very difficult for me to envisage a second rapture of believers as this will leave no believers for the millennium period.

Since the 144,000 are part of the Bride of Christ, they are not "natural bodied people." If there was no Rapture for the Tribulation saints, God's Wrath would fall on the "great multitude" of believers, including the 144,000 (Rev. 7:9,14). Believers are not appointed to wrath. I Thess. 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Do you think Christ would cast his wrath on believers?

There is the Pre-Trib Rapture, "ONE of the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man" (Lu. 17:22). It is as the days of Noah. No fire fell that day There is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the 2nd of the two days of the Son of man. It is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Luke 17:29). Agape

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From South Africa. Re: Who will populate the millennium?
...I enjoy your site as always and thank you for keeping your flow of thought and study going, it encourages many to search the word of God, in love and truth. Marilyn through my studies I seem to come up with the same problem all the time, I clearly without a doubt see a pre-tribulation Rapture, but I am afraid that I still do not see a second rapture (sorry). My point is this; Who will populate the millennium which are clearly natural bodied people if ALL believers are raptured at this stage? They cannot be unbelievers. It is true that there will be unbelievers and sinners during the millennium, but they clearly do not ENTER the millenium. Right? So where do these people come from? They cannot be present day believers as we will already be in heaven , raptured. To me these are tribulation Saints who managed to survive death. The tribulation Saints who died or to be more specific, were killed for their faith, after the Rapture took place are seen in heaven in Rev: 7 9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. [These verses are a direct fullfillment of Rev;6;11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

You do not have to agree with me but can you see why I think this way? Your opinion as always would be appreciated. Thanking you once again. God bless.

My reply

> > Who will populate the millennium which are clearly natural bodied people if ALL believers are raptured at this stage? At the 2nd Rapture, all believers will be caught up, but all unbelievers will be left. Many will be killed, but not all. All Israel will be saved that day. At the Judgment of the Nations, all "sheep" live on into the Millennium (Mt. 25:31f). There are Israelites that are put back on the Earth too. Daniel will stand in his lot at the end of the 1335 days.

> > 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. [These verses are a direct fullfillment of Rev;6;11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Why is the group that comes out of Great Tribulation a direct fulfillment of the verse about the martyrs? The martyrs have to "rest yet for a little season." The great multitude do not. The martyrs have to die for their faith. Not all of the great multitude are martyrs, only a segment "that should be killed as they were." The 144,000 do not seem to be martyrs.

> > they clearly do not ENTER the millenium. Right?

These do. Mt. 25:34-40 says, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

> > These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Where is the throne of God, where the sun doesn't light on them, nor any heat? This is the Day of God's Wrath (6:17), 7 months (Dan. 8:13,14) before the Second Advent (Rev.19:11f). Where do you think they are located? How do you think they got there? Agape

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Re: This is how I see it

>>It sounds like you are ready. That is the thing of paramount importance now. Other things take second place to that.

You know what else has just dawned on me - I don't know what it's like to be saved and to NOT be watching for his comming. I have been looking forward to the rapture since day one; not just looking forward, but also looking for signs and the times it may occur. I also just assumed I was ready, since I've been looking for the rapture and desprately yearn to go in the 1st calling up. I'm now glad that I have a better understanding of this teaching of the parable of the 10 virgins. You have probably had to explain these things before but I appreciate the time you took to explain these things again. For whatever reason, I now have complete peace with this teaching.

>>Verse 10 is interesting. It says, "while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him >>to the marriage (gamos, marriage festival, i.e., as in Mt. 22): and the door was shut."

That's another clue right there - the word "ready". I didn't catch that either until just now. The state of "readiness" applies to believers. That's a clincher for me. Thanks for pointing that out also.

>>I could never have understood half of what I do if I didn't have Strong's Concordance.

Thanks - I'll get one and will start using it.

>>In Rev. 17:14, we see that "they that are with him (Christ, right after the Rapture) are called, and chosen, and faithful." That is >>our goal, to be called, and chosen, and faithful."

Amen. Agape

My reply

You are so welcome. It is my pleasure to be able to help.

Do you use a PC so you can use the Bible Plus program? It is free at this site: http://members.aol.com/bibleplus

It will do a search for all scriptures (KJV) containing a certain word, and it is very fast. That is very helpful too. That is a big plus I got for changing from the Mac to the PC. They didn't have one for the Mac when I first tried to get it. Maybe they do now. It's worth checking out. Agape

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Re: rapture
Just read your article on 1998 rapture then you said you missed it by one year. now what is your guess?? May 28 2001?? who is the body of Christ all believers? and the bride is who? I missed it?? those who are called by his name??

I'm still reading all the rest of the articles. thank you for the good articles of the rapture. what is the best one you have written?

My reply

I missed it by more than one year. I'm hoping for this Pentecost, May 28, 2001. With maybe 7000 pages just in Pro and Cons, I lose track of where things are, but I think good bets to try would be Pro and Cons 652, 656 and 657. I have tried to consider other times, but I keep finding things that lead me right back to Pentecost. Isa. 18:3-6 is one, and its addressed to "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth." It agrees with Song of Solomon 2:10-14--the time of the firstripe grapes in the spring. I found out that "general assembly" in Heb. 12:23 is panegurei, a festal assembly (Thayer's Lexicon). That makes the Rapture most likely on a feast day. Song of Sol. 2:10-14 says that the rain is over and gone. The former rain starts in Tishri. The latter rain starts in Nisan. If this passage applies to the Rapture, this eliminates all feasts but Pentecost. Three are in Tishri, and three are in Nisan.

The Body of Christ includes all believers. The Bride of Christ seems to be the wise virgins (Mt. 25:1f) that go with Christ at the Pre-Trib Rapture. However, the 144,000 Israelites caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture seem to be added to the Bride group. They are also "firstfruits," "virgins," and "without fault before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:4,5). Agape

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