Pro and Con 726

Posted 4-5-01

Prayers needed for Rose Hunter (widow) and her son. She is in a new place and needs a good church, a job and Christian friends.

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I can't access your web site. all my bookmarks are not good. can you send me the url for your website? Blessings to you and yours

My reply

I have changed from pe.net to pe.net. Addresses are below.
mjagee@pe.net (please change in your address book)
http://home.pe.net/~mjagee (pe has been dropped)

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Bless you marilyn...I was getting hysterical without my daily dose of Marilyn...hehehe. blessing, dear one.

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Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees...we analyze things to the point that we can't see the point, rather than accept them "as a little child". I have been having to deal with a rebellious child (age 20) and have decided I need to let natural consequences be his teacher. In this experience I can see how the Father might deal with his children. He wants us at the appropriate time to be at the point of judging ourselves and discovering our own heart attitudes. Similarly, I am wanting my son to look inward (and upward!) at this point rather than to me as his conscience, and take responsibility for himself, if he is going to take on "adult privileges".

In the discussion on "worthiness to be in the firstfruit rapture", I can see some common threads. Maybe God is not going to arbitrarily judge who goes in the first rapture, but let our hearts judge ourselves by whether we hear the call or not! If we are focused and watching, it might mean the difference between recognizing what is happening, and missing it. If we are not focused because of various things such as being too enamored with the things of the world, or devoted to doctrines that cause us to reject the understanding of what is about to happen, we may reject or miss this event! If we resist the Holy Spirit we may not know some things we would otherwise know. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14

The bottom line is.....who is our first Love? Are we desirous of our Bridegroom? "For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:31,32 Capitol punishment, for instance, has an element to it that gives a person a "deadline" to assess themselves before the point of no return, which in effect is a mercy. So even those left behind the first time, have been given a reality check...a mercy in the largest sense.

God through the ages, has been giving mankind a chance to see his basic nature and his need for a Savior. He wants us to ultimately look at our hearts and our fallen state. He also loves us and wants us to let Him purify our hearts. However He accomplishes the rapture, I am confident that it will point to TRUTH and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account." Heb. 4:12,13

I tend to think the foolish virgins are professing christians that don't have "the goods"! Now deciding exactly what that consists of is each person's greatest quest! "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus is in you?-unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Cor. 13:5

You, Marilyn, are a great help in keeping me focused!! Thanks

My reply

> > "For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:31,32

That goes with James 5:7-9: "Be patient (as in Rev. 3:10) therefore, brethren (believers), unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (former rain of Tishri) and latter rain (of Nisan). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for THE COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, THE JUDGE STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR." The "open door" of Rev. 3:8 is Heaven's door in Rev. 4:1.

The next feast after the latter rains end is Pentecost. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when we see him at the Rapture. The book is written as if "THE COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH." The Rapture is "at hand" in both the 1st and the last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly."

The door is open in Rev. 3:8. Therefore, it seems that "THE JUDGE STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR" on Ascension Day. That may be 10 days before the Rapture, as in Rev. 2:10. Agape

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From: Donna Danna - 30 Mar - 5doves site
"Will The Rapture Happen After the Antichrist Seats Himself In The Temple?"

I believe that the DAY OF CHRIST mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:2 is referring to the Rapture. So let's first go over that Bible passage and insert the word RAPTURE next to the DAY OF CHRIST. Then I will give you other Bible verses that I believe show that the DAY OF CHRIST is the RAPTURE. I think this will show that the Rapture takes place after the Antichrist seats himself in the Temple

2 Thess. 2:1-4 says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him" (RAPTURE) "that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST" (RAPTURE) "is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY" (DAY OF CHRIST - RAPTURE) "SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT there come a falling away," (departure from the faith or what the gospels teach) "and that man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple, showing himself that he is God." It doesn't seem to fit if you said "THAT DAY" (DAY OF CHRIST - RAPTURE) SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT there come a falling away (RAPTURE) and that man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition..." If the 2nd coming of Christ was the DAY OF CHRIST in this verse, then the FALLING AWAY (departure) could be considered the Rapture. However, I believe that the DAY OF CHRIST in the above Bible passage in 2 Thess. 2:1-4 is referring to the RAPTURE and not the Second Coming of Christ. Below are Bible verses with the DAY OF CHRIST in them which should prove this point.

Philippians 1:6 says, "Being confident of ths very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the DAY OF JESUS CHRIST." (RAPTURE)

Philip. 1:9 says, "And this I pray, that your love abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgement that ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and WITHOUT OFFENCE till the DAY OF CHRIST" (RAPTURE) "being FILLED WITH THE FRUITS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

Philip. 2:12-16 says, "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING, FOR IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: THAT YE MAY BE BLAMELESS and harmless, the sons of God, WITHOUT REBUKE, in the midst of a a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the DAY OF CHRIST," (RAPTURE) "that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

1 Corin. 1:7-8 says, "So that ye come behind in no gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." (RAPTURE)

2 Corin. 1:14, says, "As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the DAY OF LORD JESUS." (RAPTURE)

1 Thess. 5:2-3 says, "For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD" (RAPTURE) "so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." This peace and safety seems to be the first 3 and 1/2 years of the peace covenant that the Antichrist confirms with Israel. All the above scriptures would place the RAPTURE as the DAY OF CHRIST after the Antichrist seats himself in the temple and declares himself to be God which is at the mid-point of the tribulation.

If the Rapture were to take place in the Spring of 2001, which would have to be the mid-point of the tribulation when the Antichrist seats himself in the Temple, there is no Temple yet; and it would not allow any time for the 2300 days of Daniel 8:11-14 to take place. Daniel 8:11-14 says, "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot: And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (Just don't be too disappointed if the Rapture doesn't take place this Spring.) In Christ, Donna Danna

My reply

> > I believe that the DAY OF CHRIST mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:2 is referring to the Rapture.

You are so right that the DAY OF CHRIST is the Rapture. Thanks for looking up the verses where it appears. That is very helpful.

However, the KJV translators missed the mark there. Most major MSS have day of the Lord, i.e., the Millennium, as do the Literal Concordant, RSV, ASV, BBE, Darby and Weymouth for starters. There are more. The Thessalonians were not to think that the millennial Day of the Lord was at hand. For "that day shall not come except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, i.e., Rapture) first, and that man of sin (the False Prophet) be revealed (when he confirms the covenant of Dan. 9:27), the son of perdition....For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (Old English for hindereth will hinder), until he (the Holy Spirit in us, the salt of the Earth) be taken out of the way (at the Rapture). And THEN (tote, at the same time) shall that Wicked (False Prophet) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (II Thess. 2:3-8).

> > Just don't be too disappointed if the Rapture doesn't take place this Spring.

And please don't be caught not ready if it does take place this next Pentecost. Mt. 25:10 says, "while they (foolish virgins) went to buy (oil of the Holy Spirit), the bridegroom (Christ) came; and THEY THAT WERE READY WENT IN WITH HIM TO THE MARRIAGE: and the door was shut." Agape

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From: Mary, Mopreacher@aol.com. Re: Split Rapture teaching
Dear Marilyn, I do not connect the scriptures you quoted with the rapture in the same way that you do. There was a post tonight from Patricia that I feel was so good and is the correct interpretation of the verse concerning our being worthy to be raptured.

I read Ron Reese's post. I wrote to him and told him in love that I didn't agree. I then went for a ride and was reading Romans 3:24 Being JUSTIFIED freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Since this is true where do we stand in the sight of God. The scripture says that the blood makes us (JUSTIFIED or JUST AS IF WE NEVER SINNED). Then my conclusion has to be that I am clean in the sight of the Lord and rapture ready. That is good news. Jesus Loves you

My reply

> > faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past

This is salvation. It takes care of all past sins. At that point, all "PAST" sins are wiped off the books. Now what will you do about the sins committed AFTER salvation? John 13:8,10 says, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, IF I WASH THEE NOT, THOU HAST NO PART WITH ME....Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean."

> > The scripture says that the blood makes us (JUSTIFIED or JUST AS IF WE NEVER SINNED). Then my conclusion has to be that I am clean in the sight of the Lord and rapture ready.

When we first accept Christ, we are classed as pure virgins. All our old sins are washed away, but we sin after that. Listen to Jesus. He said, "IF I WASH THEE NOT, THOU HAST NO PART WITH ME." If you get dirty feet, how will you get Jesus to wash your feet?

I sure don't want anyone I can reach to be among those weeping and gnashing their teeth after the Rapture takes place. Be certain to use I John 1:9 just in case. What will it hurt to be classed as "ready"? Mt. 25:10 says, "they that were READY went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." This is the door of Heaven (Rev. 4:1). It is the "open door" set before the Philadelphians, for whom Jesus had no words of condemnation. He didn't even tell them to repent, for they already had.

Rev. 19:7 says, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath MADE HERSELF READY." How do we make ourselves "READY"? Agape

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From:Mary Owens - Mopreacher@aol.com
Re: Strong meat/Split rapture teaching

You said: Concerning strong meat, Heb. 5:12-14 says, "when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

My answer: Strong meat has nothing to do with the split rapture teaching. It has to do with the gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit. It is when a person has walked with the Lord and experienced trials and chastenings, and being led by the Spirit, and our conscience either accusing or excusing, and then we can look back and see how God worked. It's also in knowing the fundamental doctrines of the Bible, so that the Bible can be rightly divided. Knowing the will of God and being led of God. These are the strong meat areas that those by reason of use gain knowledge to become more proficient. After being a Christian for 33 year and being spirit fill for 16 years, I can now much more easily perceive God's working in different areas. What is such a marvel about him, is his greatness, and yet his leading in very small intimate ways in people's lives. People who haven't come to the strong meat stage don't see this in their life, (even though as a Christian it is there), and therefore they get frustrated with trials, changes, and disappointments, etc.

This is probably the most important thing I am saying. WE DO NOT KNOW HOW FAR DOWN THIS ROAD OF MATURITY GOD'S OTHER CHILDREN HAVE COME.

The debate on the Split rapture has to be deduced from other scripture. Such as the promises of eternal life and faith.

Peter said.. 2 Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Paul said.. Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

I believe that is talking about Gnosticism that has always tried to infiltrated the church, The Jehovah Witnesses are the modern day Gnostics. Works plus Jesus. That brings Jesus down from his elite position. If the devil can get just a tiny nip at the FACT that the blood is enough he has gained a foothold.

We are not ready for strong meat until we KNOW the value of the blood of Jesus and our own utter helplessness. God will then lead EACH of us on with his own intimate personal care even though the babe doesn't recognize the leading...

The reason why I don't believe that the split rapture teaching is right is because of the most basic Bible doctrine. The fact of our utter helplessness, and our total need for a savior. After beginning in the Spirit are we now made perfect by the flesh? NO. That is what the Bible says. Ga 3:3.

Do you believe that Jesus will have the marriage supper of the lamb with part of the bride? I don't. Then that would invalidate scripture and an undivided church.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

The split rapture teaching is a troubling teaching. It is a faith destroying teaching. We're to have faith in God. God will trouble us by his spirit if we sin, but we are to look for Jesus to come after us, not leave part of us behind.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If we aren't real children of God we will DEEP DOWN KNOW that we have fallen from grace. The Holy Spirit will woo us back just as he wooed us to Christ in the first place.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That's the Holy Spirit bringing us back into the fold. Those that come back will go in the rapture when Jesus comes his SECOND, (one of two) time.

I personally believe that ALMIGHTY GOD, and with his total control over his church, that all things will come together at a consumate time. I believe that every child of God will be exactly where they are to be. Everything in position and that is when Jesus will come. Not according to some earthly feast day, but ALMIGHTY GOD is working now to bring all things into that position of the bride being ready for the groom. He can do that you know.

2 Ti 2:19b The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

We don't know. Some that look like the very best Christian may be the very ones that God is dealing with about sin, (missing the mark).

My reply

> > Strong meat has nothing to do with the split rapture teaching. It has to do with the gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit.

Can you back that up with scripture? Isa. 28:9 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." Is there any way you can see to limit "doctrine" to "the gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit"? I can't.

> > This is probably the most important thing I am saying. WE DO NOT KNOW HOW FAR DOWN THIS ROAD OF MATURITY GOD'S OTHER CHILDREN HAVE COME.

I have over 40 years of intensive Bible study behind me, but what does that have to do with the Rapture?

> > The debate on the Split rapture has to be deduced from other scripture. Such as the promises of eternal life and faith.

Eternal life and faith have to do with salvation. All believers will be raptured at one time or another, but how do we make sure we will make it in the Bride group?

At both Raptures, there are resurrected saints along with living ones. There are ranks in the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just. I cor. 15:23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

I would very much like to be part of the firstfruits, wouldn't you? It seems that the Tribulation saints have to wait until the day the smoky atmosphere is rolled back like a scroll and they see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f). I think they will have to spend 2300 days with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (foolish virgin) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off, i.e., spue him out of his mouth, Rev. 3:16), and will appoint him his portion (the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14) with the UNBELIEVERS."

> > We are not ready for strong meat until we KNOW the value of the blood

I think you have that under your belt already. Are you now ready to move on to something else, or are you hung up on that "KNOW"? How long does it take to "KNOW the value of the blood," 34 years?

> > The reason why I don't believe that the split rapture teaching is right is because of the most basic Bible doctrine. The fact of our utter helplessness, and our total need for a savior.

That is the milk of the Word. You already have a Saviour. Can't you get beyond that point? You seem to be barracading yourself with milk verses so you can't see beyond them.

> > After beginning in the Spirit are we now made perfect by the flesh? NO. That is what the Bible says. Ga 3:3.

Paul was teaching them that justification is by faith without the works of the law. It has nothing to do with the Rapture. V. 2 says, "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

> > Do you believe that Jesus will have the marriage supper of the lamb with part of the bride? I don't. Then that would invalidate scripture and an undivided church.

I think the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be in Heaven the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It will be for all the saints. There are two groups of saints, the "wife" and "they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev. 19:9). How can we be sure we are in the "wife" group? There are the Bride of Christ and the friends of the Bridegroom. I want to be in the Bride group. What do I have to do to make sure of that?

If the church is "undivided," as you say, then what does Luke 12:46 mean? It says, "The lord of that servant (foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off, i.e., spue him out of his mouth, Rev. 3:16), and will appoint him his portion (the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14) with the UNBELIEVERS." Mt. 24:51 adds "And shall CUT HIM ASUNDER, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

> > The Jehovah Witnesses are the modern day Gnostics. Works plus Jesus.

They make an even worse error than that. They think Jesus was Michael the archangel.

> > If the devil can get just a tiny nip at the FACT that the blood is enough he has gained a foothold.

The blood is enough for salvation. One who is saved still has two times that he can get caught up to Heaven. He can be in the group out of all nations in Rev. 5:9 (before the 1st seal is broken), or he can be in the great multitude out of all nations that come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev. 7:9,14. If you want to come out of the Great Tribulation between the 6th and 7th seals. So be it, but I want to be in that group standing before the throne before the 1st seal is broken.

> > The split rapture teaching is a troubling teaching. It is a faith destroying teaching. We're to have faith in God. God will trouble us by his spirit if we sin, but we are to look for Jesus to come after us, not leave part of us behind.

I have not found it to be faith destroying. I don't see how anyone could have stronger faith than I have. There is no room in my life for the slightest flicker of doubt. I know who Christ is. He is the Almighty himself. Nothing could destroy my faith, not life or death or anything else.

Can you explain what John 15:1,2 means? Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (i.e., a Christian in Christ) that beareth not fruit he TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

> > That's the Holy Spirit bringing us back into the fold. Those that come back will go in the rapture when Jesus comes his SECOND, (one of two) time. That's the Holy Spirit bringing us back into the fold. Those that come back will go in the rapture when Jesus comes his SECOND, (one of two) time.

I don't know if I understand you correctly on this. It sounds like you think the Rapture will be at the Second Advent. His Second Advent is 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 39:12,13). That would mean that the saints would have to go through God's Wrath. That just can't be so. We are not appointed to wrath. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" The saints are all in Heaven, and the wrath of God falls on unbelievers on the Earth.

> > Not according to some earthly feast day, but ALMIGHTY GOD is working now to bring all things into that position of the bride being ready for the groom.

Heb. 12:22-24 says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly (panegurei, 'FESTAL ASSEMBLY,' Thayer) and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus."

> > We don't know. Some that look like the very best Christian may be the very ones that God is dealing with about sin, (missing the mark).

They need to know that this life is a test and that the great teacher gave us a manual so we could pass the test. It isn't his fault if we don't read it.

James 1:5-7 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." Agape

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