Pro and Con 727

Posted 4-9-01

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From: S. Africa
Thank you once again for your reply. I hope you do not mind me picking your brain once again, but I have to clarify this matter in my own mind, not that this is a requirement that the Lord expects for salvation, but it is important to the logical side of me. Boy, you seem to have been tested with illnesses in your family as I have, I sure hope that your eyesight holds up as I know that your sight is important to you and to us that enjoy your work so much. I along with many of your readers I am sure, shall pray for you and also for Ed who seems to have gone through the mills as well.

Your Answer: No, but there will be those that accepted Christ too late to be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I think the Judgment of the Nations is about 2 weeks after the Second Advent, after the full 2520 days of the Tribulation have passed. All should believe in him at that point, if not before. Every eye will see him return. Re. 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and ALL kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."

Me: I see your point here Marilyn, but after the fifth seal, those souls seen under the alter that were told to rest a little longer, they are still waiting for future martyrs. Then we get the earthquake and the stars falling etc....after the sixth seal was opened. This is the great day of His wrath. Then in (Rev: 7;1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.(v3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Only now the sealing of the 144K takes place. John then goes into great detail telling us who gets sealed, so they have been protected from harm by the Lord. (Rev:7;9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Now this multitude that are seen in heaven seem to me to be those that were killed in the devestation caused by the four angels, why would the 144K be sealed just for a short while if this is the second rapture that they are supposed to be a part of? Now we get the seventh seal. The seven angels with seven trumpets are about to sound here. When the fifth angel sounds, we now have the opening of the bottomless pit etc. (Rev:9;4) Here we once again see the 144K. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So as much as I do not think that God will let this group experience His wrath because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and therefor devinely protected, I still see them on earth at this stage while the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth. Marilyn am I missing something here? Please give me your views. Thanking you once again. Keep well. Fond regards

My reply

We sure appreciate your prayers. Since new lenses won't help Ed now, we will see tomorrow if they will remove Ed's cataracts. (later: not yet) Thank you Lord, mine is only in my right eye and not yet obscuring vision. My new glasses for driving will be ready soon. It is a good thing I am a bit younger than he is so I can drive when he can't.

> > Only now the sealing of the 144K takes place.

To understand this, we need to compare it with Eze. 9:4-6. The "LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, GO YE AFTER HIM THROUGH THE CITY, AND SMITE: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary." The mark, or sealing, seems to be done right before the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the 1st day of the Millennium.

> > Now this multitude that are seen in heaven seem to me to be those that were killed in the devestation caused by the four angels, why would the 144K be sealed just for a short while if this is the second rapture that they are supposed to be a part of?

The 4 angels are holding back the devastation until the sealing and Rapture take place. They do not let it loose until the 7 trumpets begin to sound. By that time, the Pre-Wrath Rapture has taken place and the judge is seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. This Rapture is as the days of Lot. The two angels hurried Lot out of Sodom saying that they could not do anything until he was out. Gen. 19:22 says, "Haste thee, ESCAPE thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither."

As in the days of Lot, "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f) (Luke 17:29). Verse 34 says, "in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be TAKEN (ESCAPE), and the other shall be left." This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The Tribulation saints are not all killed. A great multitude will be Raptured. All the sealed ones will be caught up to Heaven at the last trump of God. There is a first trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) and a last trump of God (I Cor. 15:51,52).

> > the fifth angel sounds, we now have the opening of the bottomless pit etc.... (Rev:9;4) Here we once again see the 144K. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 are not there when the bottomless pit is opened by the "aster" ("star") called Wormwood. Only "those men which have NOT the seal of God" are there.

> > I still see them on earth at this stage while the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth.

In Rev. 5:9, the saints of the 1st Rapture sing a new song. In Rev. 14:3-5, the 144,000 sing "as it were a new song BEFORE THE THRONE." They are those "which WERE (past tense) REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH." These "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth...they are without fault before the throne of God."

Eph. 4:30 says, "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Isn't the day of redemption for the Bride of Christ the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture? Isn't the day of redemption for the 144,000 the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, when they are added to the Bride group? They are "virgins," "firstfruits," and "without fault before the throne of God."

After the 6th seal is broken in Rev. 6:12, the 144,000 Israelites and the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations" are "they which CAME (past tense) out of great tribulation, and HAVE (past tense) washed their robes, and MADE (past tense) them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore ARE (present tense) they before the throne of God (between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals)...They SHALL (future tense) hunger no more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev. 7:9-17). Agape

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Thank you for your explainations. Below I have put the events in point form, sorry about the length of the content but would you mind once again to give your views.

1. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Would this be the pre-wrath Rapture?)

***There is a very good chance that it is. the Pre-Wrath Rapture is just before the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes. I think the saints will participate there in some way. The next verse, the Lord seems to be talking to the saints, "Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." Psa. 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

2. Destruction of Babylon.

***That is with the "aster" (asteroid or star) of Rev. 8:10. Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

3. Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: ( Are these then Pre-trib and pre-wrath saints Raptured and killed?)

***It is all the saints, Old Testament saints, Bride of Christ saints and Tribulation saints.

4. Celebration in heaven.

***Both the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb seem to be in Heaven.

5. Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.(Completion of the Bride Group?)

***Yes. I think the 144,000 Israelites will be added to the Bride group at the 2nd Rapture. Then the Marriage of the Lamb will take place.

6. (Explains who the bride group are) Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

***Yes. The Bride wears white.

According to my understanding thus far, there is a preparation of two feasts about to begin. The one being the marriage supper, here we have the Groom (Jesus), the Bride (All believers from 30AD until the Wrath of God hits earth),

***I don't think all believers will be in the Bride group.

Guests, (those who obtained salvation after the wrath of God and who are still natural bodied people),

***I think the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is in Heaven, but there will be on Earth people who accepted Christ too late to make the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Friends of the Groom which seem to be old testament saints.(we call them the best man at the wedding) (John 3:29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. The Virgins, the "Bridesmaids" (Psalm 45;14) She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee (Rev 14;3,4) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Perhaps a double application of the parable of the 10 Virgins Jesus says that the wise virgins "went in with him to the marriage." Therefore, the marriage—that is, the marriage feast—is after the tribulation.

***I think both the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Feast of the Lamb will take place in Heaven on the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face; in their affliction they will seek me early" (Hosea 5:15). "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39). From these verses we know that Christ will not leave heaven, Israel will not see Him descend, until they first repent.

The nation will be born in a day, the 1st day of the Millennium (Isa. 66:8).

Everyone alive at the end of the tribulation will attend a feast. If not the marriage feast, it will be another feast. "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great" (Revelation 19:17–18). At that time people left behind will either enjoy the marriage feast. Or will be enjoyed at the Supper of the Great God, not as guests, but as food.

***I think the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is in Heaven.

My prayers are still with you as well as my thanks for the time you have taken to answer my questions. God bless you both. Agape. (We have a pre-school near to us called the Agapé Creche, nice don't you think)

***You bet. Agape

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From: DUDEWDK@aol.com - Re: 7 TRUMPETS
we disagreed in P&C 713 about the 7 Trumpets of Rev. and the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses.

(1st) The 7 trumpets cannot all happen on the same day. Look at Rev 9:12 one woe is past; and behold there come two woes more here after. This verse makes it clear that the 1st woe is past. Rev 9:10 and they had tails like unto scorpions and there were stings in their tails; and their power was to hurt men 5 Months. Verse 10 is part of the 1st woe and is 5 months long. Verse 9 said the 1st woe is finished. Therefore the 7 trumpets cannot be all in one day.

(2nd) The 2 witnesses prophesy 1260 days Rev 11:3, No rain Rev 11:6, It rains Rev.11:19 Great hail and Rev. 8:7 Hail. The 1260 days must be between.

you are a good bible student please look at this prayerfully. you have my permission to list my E-mail address.

My reply

> > their power was to hurt men 5 Months. Verse 10 is part of the 1st woe and is 5 months long. Verse 9 said the 1st woe is finished. Therefore the 7 trumpets cannot be all in one day...

It doesn't matter how long each trumpet judgment lasts. They all start on one day. I think that day is the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. When the 2nd trumpet sounded, the "great mountain burning with fire (an asteroid) was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5)...the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died." After some time passes we find that "every living soul died in the sea" (2nd vial, Rev. 16:3). Both asteroid impacts come at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5; Eze. 25:16; Job 20:23; Amos 8:9; Psa. 91:6; Zech. 9:5), but their effects linger much longer. This globe is turned upside down (Isa. 24:1). The seas overflow the land in places. There is no way the results can be limited to one day, only the start of that judgment is on one day. Wild fires will burn longer than that.

> > The 2 witnesses prophesy 1260 days Rev 11:3, No rain Rev 11:6, It rains Rev.11:19 Great hail and Rev. 8:7 Hail. The 1260 days must be between.

The 2 witnesses, Moses and Elijah, prophesy 1260 days. It has to be the first half of the Tribulation, because the 2nd half, the Great Tribulation, is shortened (Mt. 24:22; Rev. 12:12; 17:10).

Rev. 11:1-13 applies to the 1st 1260 days, plus 3.5 days. It is in a parenthetic section between the 6th (Rev. 9:13) and 7th trumpets (Rev. 11:15). There are parenthetic sections between the 6th and 7th seals, trumpets and vials. This may be because the Tribulation is a parenthetic time of trial upon the whole world between the 6th and 7th millenniums.

The actual days from the 1st day the 2 witness prophesy to the "great hail" of Rev. 11:19 is 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14). The Jews sacrifice during the ministry of Moses and Elijah. The False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed when Satan is cast down Mid-Trib. He immediately desecrates the temple and kills Moses and Elijah. The Great Tribulation starts then and runs 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040). Agape

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What is the passage that equates the time of Jacob's trouble, which we are evidently in, with the Tribulation/ Daniel's 70th week? Thanks!

My reply

Jer. 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." It is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

Dan. 12:1,2 says, "at that time (when the False Prophet is deposed from office) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Agape

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From: DUDEWDK@aol.com - Re: 7 TRUMPETS
Rev 9:12 said the 1st woe is past (not the trumpet) and that woe is 5 months long. The next two trumpets are the next two woe's

The 1st woe is finished before the next woe starts. The trumpet may sound for a moment but the woe last 5 months and Rev 9:12 said it is past. Marilyn pray about this one. What ever your answer we still love your web sight.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. I prayed.

Let's see. Rev. 8:13 introduces the 3 woes. It says, "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" It sounds like each trumpet releases one woe. The trumpet starts the woe. Let's back up and take a look at all the trumpet judgments.

First trumpet: a hail of fiery rocks started wildfires. One third of the trees burned. All green grass was burned (Rev. 8:7). That takes longer than an instant to burn, so the effects last longer than the trumpet blast.

Second trumpet: "a great mountain burning with fire (probably the smaller piece of a binary asteroid that broke apart at the Roche Limit, about 11,000 mi. out) was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5) (Rev. 8:8,9. One third of the life in the sea died right then. Later, all the life was dead in the sea (Rev. 16:3).

Third trumpet: "there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid or flaming meteorite) from heaven, burning....And the name of the star is called Wormwood." It fell "upon the third part of the rivers" (Rev. 8:10,11). These are probably the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers. They come fairly close near Babylon and are very close to their junction near Ur.

Eze. 21:30 says, "Shall I cause it (the Sword of the Lord, the flaming sword of Gen. 3:24) to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity." Both Adam and Abraham came from the area of Erech (Garden of Eden) and Ur in Iraq. Babylon is not very far away.

Fourth trumpet: one third of the Sun, Moon and stars are darkened. The "day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise" (Rev. 8:12).

Fifth trumpet, first woe: "I saw a Star (Wormwood) which HAD FALLEN from Heaven to the earth; and to him was given (past tense) the key of the depths of the bottomless pit, and he opened (past tense) the depths of the bottomless pit. And smoke came (past tense) up out of the pit resembling the smoke of a vast furnace, so that the sun was darkened, and the air also, by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Rev. 9:1,2, Weymouth).

This flaming "aster" digs the pit for the wicked. Psa. 94:12,13 (KJV) says, "Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law; That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked." I expect the magma to surface and form the Lake of Fire.

Sixth trumpet, second woe: "four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour (noon), and a day (1st of the month), and a month (Tishri), and a year (5768, our Sept. 13, 2007), for to slay the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15). Amos 8:9 says, "it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at NOON, and I will darken the earth in the clear day." Rev. 9:18 says, "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."

The asteroid Wormwood impacts Earth at noon. Therefore, the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th trumpets initiate their woes at about the same time.

In anticipation of the seventh trumpet, Rev. 10:6 (RSV) says that at the seventh trumpet, "there should be NO MORE DELAY." Therefore, it looks like the trumpets 3 through 7 initiate their woes at about the same time.

Seventh trumpet, third woe: Rev. 11:15-19 (KJV) says, "the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE (right now) become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he SHALL REIGN for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (the Second Advent is 7 months future, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and HAST REIGNED. And the nations WERE (past tense) angry (Gog's army attacked Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (probably with the 2 threatening stones in it): and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an EARTHQUAKE (the worldwide one, Eze. 38:20; Rev. 16:18), and great hail."

Notice that "THY WRATH IS COME." Now look back at Rev. 6:15-17. It says, "the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) is when I think "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME." That is just before the Pre-Wrath Rapture. After all the saints are gathered in Heaven and from Earth (Mark 13:27), the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. There is silence in Heaven and Earth while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The saints will get their rewards in Heaven at the same time that the unbelievers left on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief.

This day is like no other day--EVER. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." Joel 2:1-3 mentions the trumpet and thick darkness of that first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

This is the day of Jacob's trouble. It is called "that day" many times in Scripture. Dan. 12:1,2 says of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, "at that time (when the False Prophet is deposed, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."

It seems to me that all the trumpets are sounded by noon on the Day of God's Wrath. The Earth will be turned upside down (Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." The troubles unleashed by the last 3 trumpets will continue for quite some time.

The first day of the Millennium seems to be Jesus' Long Day, of which Joshua's Long Day was a type. Jesus, from the Greek, would be Joshua from the Hebrew. Joshua 10:11 says, "it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."

Let's look at the woes. The 5th trumpet initiates the 1st woe. Just before the 6th trumpet sounds, Rev. 9:12 says, "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." The 6th trumpet initiates the 2nd woe. Rev. 11:14 says, "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." In the next verse, the 7th trumpet unleashes the 3rd woe, and when the 7th trumpet sounds, there will be delay no longer.

In Rev. 9, we see that the men that have not the seal of God are tormented 5 months. This is what bothers you. I think the trumpets and therefore the woes strike bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Their effects last longer. This is shown us in other places than Rev. 9. The 2nd trumpet judgment cast the burning mountain into the Mediterranean. At first, 1/3 of life died in the sea. Later, we see that the vials fill up the wrath of God that started on the 1st day of the Millennium. Under the 2nd vial, all the life in the sea had died. The effects are initiated by the trumpets, and woes, but continue for some time.

It takes longer to tell what happens, but the initial asteroid impacts come quickly. This is demonstrated for us in Rev. 8:5 and Isa. 22:16-19 The former says, "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and CAST IT INTO THE EARTH: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." The latter says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (in the asteroid Wormwood), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Agape

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