Pro and Con 731

Posted 4-12-01

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Re: Phil Rogers Post. It had to be Declared
(2 Th 2:3-4 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

For, we must be outa here before they can accept and proclaim him as their messiah.

I'm sorry but I have always understood this to mean that the day would not come until AFTER the man of sin is revealed. That is what the above verse seems to be saying to me but I might not totally understand it. Please clarify.

My reply

The Rapture is before the Tribulation begins, and both are before the millennial Day of the Lord comes.

In II Thess. 2:2, almost all major MSS have day of the Lord, which is the Millennium. It will not come until the "apostasia" (departure, i.e., Pre-Trib Rapture) comes. Verses 7 and 8 say, "he who now letteth will let (Old English for hindereth will hinder, i.e., the Holy Spirit in us, the salt of the Earth), until he be taken (ginomai, arise, be taken up) out of the way (at the Rapture). And then ('tote,' at the same time) shall that Wicked be revealed."

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Sydney Morning Herald - Mikhail Gorbachev wants Malcolm Fraser to help him save the world. When the former Soviet leader decided to set up a World Governance Forum, the former Australian Prime Minister was among the politicians he invited to join him....Mr Gorbachev told the meeting that after World War I the League of Nations had been established, after World War II the United Nations, and, after the end of the Cold War, new structures were needed to govern globalization....

Mr Gorbachev said his forum would be a political version of the annual World Economic Forum in Davos, which is confined mainly to businessmen and economists....

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Re: PropheZine Newsletter #117 (4-1-01)
Possibly some new details...particularly in Bramlett's article. Maranatha, Bob

My reply

Thanks. It was interesting reading. A few excerpts are below. My comments are marked ***.

But first, I'm still on cloud nine over Mike. I am so very glad you wrote to him. I'm sure that the Lord guided you so that Mike would hear what was necessary for him to decide to turn around.

Zech. 4:12 is talking about Moses and Elijah. The oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit. It says, "What be these two olive branches which through the two golden PIPES empty the golden oil out of themselves.?" They are as pipes through which the Holy Spirit pours out to others. In this instance, you were like a golden pipe delivering golden oil to Mike. He benefited; you did too. Praise the Lord.
Christ's Soon Return: The Overwhelming Evidence
The Importance of the End of this Millennium, by Jim Bramlett

...After the Bible, the Talmud is the most authoritative source of Judaism. The view frequently expressed in the Talmud, according to researchers, is that the world as we know it would last only 6,000 years. For example, the Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: "The world is to exist 6,000 years. In the first 2,000, there was desolation (no Torah, from Adam to Abraham), 2,000 years the Torah flourished, and the next 2,000 years is the Messianic era (He should have come within that period.

He should have come at the beginning of the last 2,000 years; the delay is due to our sins)"...

***How a Hebrew person can write this without seeing that Jesus is the Messiah is beyond me.

Israel is "God's time clock." Jesus expressed such a view. He spoke prophetically of Israel and the future, saying that Jerusalem would be destroyed and the Jews scattered, which actually happened 37 years later in A.D. 70....

***The number 40 means testing and probation. I think Israel was tried for 40 years (instead of 37) before the temple and Jerusalem were burned.

***I researched everything I could find in BIOLA's Seminary Collection on the date of the Crucifixion, even old handwritten MSS from the 1700's. I can't see any time being right but 30 AD. Herod's temple construction began in BC 20/19. At the time of the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry, John 2:20 says, "Forty and six years was this temple in building." That brings us to 4069 AH (27 AD). Adding 3 more Passovers, we arrive at 4072 AH (30 AD).

Jesus would have been baptized near his 30th birthday on Tishri 1 in 4068 AH (26 AD). That puts his birth on Tishri 1 in our BC 5. The year 26 AD was the 15th year of the rule of Tiberius over Palestine. He was Co-Rex with Augustus from 12 AD and Sole-Rex in 14 AD. Augustus put Tiberius over Palestine in 12 AD and busied himself with other parts of the realm until his death in 14 AD.

This agrees with the Talmud (Sanh. 1:1,7:2) that the right of capital punishment was taken from the Jews 40 years before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

It agrees with the 483rd year of Dan. 9:25. Martin Anstey showed in his Romance of Bible Chronology that there was an 82-year mistake in the era of the Persion Kings. The first year of Cyrus was BC 454 rather than BC 536. The Lord shows us that we should figure the 483 years from the 1st year of Cyrus. Isa. 44:28 says that the Lord "saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." To me, figuring from the decree of Artaxerxes flies in the face of the Lord's sure word of prophecy. 483 - 454 + 1 (no zero yr) = 30 AD.

The reason this seems so important to me is because there were 40 years plus another 120 days from Palm Sunday (counting by Jewish inclusive reckoning), when Jesus was refused as king, to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple proper was burned. I Cor. 10:11 says, "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS (plural) of the world (lit., AGES, plural) are come."

The 70th week of Dan. 9:27 is the end of the 2000-year Age of the Jews. I think it is also the end of the 2000-year Age of the Gentiles and the 2000-year Age of the Church. Rev. 3:10 says that the trial (Tribulation) will come upon the whole world to try those that live on the Earth. That means Gentiles, Jews and the remnant of the Church after the Pre-Trib Rapture. Luke 21:34-36 says, "take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare (trap) shall it (the Ends of the Ages) come ON ALL THEM THAT DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Those who will not be on the Earth at that time are those that are "accounted worthy to escape all these things." They were caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Adding the 40 years plus another 120 days to June 7, 1967, when Israel retook the temple area, places the end of the shortened Tribulation on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). Counting backward from that the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 (by inclusive reckoning) places the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel on the appropriate Feast of Weeks, Sivan 6, 5761 (May 28, 2001). My guess is that the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place in the night of Sivan 6, 5761. The Jewish date begins at 6 PM on our May 27 (Jerusalem time). That leaves the daytime hours free for the confirming of the covenant of Dan. 9:27. We don't have to wait long to find out.
False Messiahs, Antichrists and Modern Caesars, by Lambert Dolphin
(Speaking of the Tribulation)Where will the church be during this time period? The Body of Christ, inseparable from the Head of the Body (Jesus) will evidently be on the earth, behind the scenes, directing the course of final events until His open public appearing in glory. That is, during the entire seven year period Jesus will on earth, with his church, but invisible ---resurrection bodies allow for this kind of "appearing and disappearing"---moving out of the spiritual realm into the physical as Jesus did many times during his 40 day stay in Israel after his resurrection, but before his ascension.

One example of this secret presence of the church on earth is given in Revelation 14:1 where the Apostle John sees "the Lamb standing (present tense) on Mount Zion with the 144,000..."This incident occurs during the tribulation period. (The 144,000 are Jewish followers of Jesus during the tribulation period who are charged with communicating the gospel to the world after the departure of the church during the tribulation period).

What is fascinating about this passage in Revelation is that the 144,000 gathered together hear a "new song" from heaven, "like the sound of many waters." Those who sing are "in heaven," or "in the heavenly places" which is the same thing as saying that this choir consists of those who have already received their resurrection bodies (i.e., the church). Their great hymn of redemption, heard only by the 144,000 encourages these Jewish evangelists of the tribulation period who labor under terrible persecutions to win multitudes to Yeshua at the very close of the age. (Ref 4)....

***I don't expect the Bride to come back to Earth during the shortened Tribulation. Job 5:24 says, "thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin." I think we will visit our heavenly home until we return with Christ at the Second Advent.

***The 144,000 are in Heaven in Rev. 14:1-5. There is an earthly Zion and a heavenly Zion. In Rev. 14:1, the 144,000 are in Heaven with Christ. The 144,000 sing the new song "before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (all in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 after the Pre-Trib Rapture) and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which WERE REDEEMED (past tense) FROM THE EARTH" (in the Pre-Wrath Rapture). These came out of Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:9).

***It seems to me that only the Bride sings the new song. The wise virgins sing it after the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 5:9. The 144,000 of Israel sing it in Rev. 14:3 after the Pre-Wrath Rapture in Rev. 7:14. The great multitude that no man can number in Rev. 7:9 seem not to be members of the Bride. They do not sing the new song.

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of Earth), out of the miry clay (like Jeremiah was raised up out of the pit wherein was miry clay), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (at the Rapture). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." Jeremiah was raised up out of the pit with rotten rags under strong cords. I think the rotten rags represent our works and the strong cord represents the Lord's work. Jeremiah came up out of the pit with both.

***Psa. 144:5-9 says, "Bow thy heavens (maybe Saturn's rings), O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them. Send thine hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children; Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood. I will sing a NEW SONG unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee." Psa. 149:5,6 says, " Let the saints be joyful in glory (Heaven): let them SING aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth."

That the Syrians/Russians will invade Israel and be destroyed by direct intervention of God, is described in Ezekiel Chapters 38 and 39. Whether this occurs before, at the beginning of the tribulation, or in the last half of the tribulation is disputed by many Bible scholars---with reputable and competent men represented in each of these three camps. Some believe this invasion will occur in the first half of the tribulation period.

Ezekiel says God will rain fire on both Moscow and the coastlands (a term for the Japhethic western world nations, or the continents) at that time---nuclear exchange seems to be the probable scenario. There is also a great earthquake described in Ezekiel 38 which shakes the land of Israel with terrible devastation in connection with the Northern invasion.

***The reason he doesn't see that the attack of Gog's army is at the end of the shortened Tribulation seems to be because he is thinking of Eze. 38:20 only shaking Israel. It is the worldwide earthquake of Rev. 16:18, which says, "there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

***Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day (Day of God's Wrath) there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains (asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down (Isa. 22:18), and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

***Also, Zech.. 14:2 says, "I will gather ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem to battle." Isa. 34:2 says, "the indignation of the LORD is upon ALL NATIONS, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. The catastrophe of Eze. 38:20 is the asteroid impact of Rev. 8:8 coupled with the asteroid impact of 8:10 on the Day of God's Wrath. Agape

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Re: when the dead in Christ rise first
Question: In the article I am sending you, mention is made of the 'dead in Christ' and that they did rise in Jerusalem on Jan.7,2001!

The writer of this article is daughter of Steve Reese,I believe you've heard of him.

Other dates and contrivations seem amiss. It is a long read, my question to you is, anything to it? Or put aside....Agape

My reply

I have heard of Ron Reese. If I remember right, his daughter is a missionary. This long article is so mixed up, I didn't get halfway through it before I just didn't want to read further. I stopped when she said, "The first Gentile Feast of Trumpets started January 1, 2001, and lasted 7 days. So also, the first Gentile Feast of Firstfruits started January 3, 2001, and lasted 7 days until January 9/10, 2001, when the resurrected dead had their Day of Atonement."

The Bible is a Jewish book. The Feast of Trumpets is Tishri 1, which this year is Sept. 18. The Feast of Firstfruits is Nisan 16, which this year is April 9. The Day of Atonement is Tishri 10, our Sept. 27, 2001. There isn't a match among her words above. There isn't anything in Scripture that I know of that even hints at feasts being set up for the Gentiles. Below are some other excerpts and my comments.

> > Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until His wrath has passed by (first Rapture that took place on April 8, 2001). See, the Lord is coming out of His dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins (this is the day of Godís wrath that will take place on April 10, 2001). The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

I think the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath are separated by at least 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14). I am certain that the Pre-Trib Rapture has not taken place yet.

Isa. 26:19-21 KJV) says, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body (lit., bodies) shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation (i.e., God's wrath on same day as 2nd Rapture) be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of HIS PLACE (Heaven) to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity."

> > THE SECOND RAPTURE AND THE SECOND DAY OF THE LORD The second Rapture will take place in accordance with the Jewish Feast of Trumpets in the fall of 2005. After the second Rapture of the church, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will take place in Heaven with all believers (see Revelation 19:6). The Feast of Tabernacles is right after this, representing Christ coming to the earth to set up His Kingdom, rebuilding the Temple, and showing Himself to the Jews as the Messiah and to the world as the true Savior.

The 2nd Rapture will be on the Jewish Feast of Trumpets ok, but I doubt that it will be in 2005. I expect it on Sept. 13, 2007. At least she can see clearly that there are two Raptures. However the first one is the Day of Christ or the Day of the Son of Man. Phil 1:10 says, "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ." Phil. 2:16 says, "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." Luke 17:22 says, "And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days (plural, i.e., 2 Raptures) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it" (i.e., miss the 1st Rapture). Luke 17:26 says, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man." The 2nd Rapture is on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation. It is as the days of Lot (Luke 17:28f).

>> We can know that there are TWO days of the Lord because of a few subtle differences the Bible uses to describe them. On the first day of the Lord, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood (see Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12). On the second day of the Lord, the sun and moon are darkened (see Matthew 24:29, Isaiah 13:10), indicating only a PARTIAL solar and PARTIAL lunar eclipse (fall Feasts of 2005). On the first day of the Lord, the "fig tree" is just blooming and there is no fruit yet indicating early spring (see Habakkuk 3, Matthew 24:32, Nahum 3:10-17). On the second day of the Lord, the fig tree is withered and itís fruit is over-ripe indicating late fall (see Revelation 6:13 and Isaiah 34:4). On the first day of the Lord, well under ľ of the world is killed Ė probably less than 5% of the population (see Revelation 6:8). On the second day of the Lord 1/3 of the population that is left is killed (by that time there may only be about 3 billion people left because of 1.5 billion people being killed within the next 5 years and the second Rapture that will have already taken place Ė see Revelation 9:15).

There is only one first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Joel 2:30-32 is talking about the end of this age and the beginning of the Millennium. It says, "I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before (Elul 29, the end of this age) the great and terrible day of the LORD come (the next day, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets). And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER (as in John 3:16's 'WHOSOEVER believeth') shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered (the Pre-Wrath Rapture): for in mount Zion (the heavenly one) and in Jerusalem (the earthly one) shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant (to live on into the Millennium) whom the LORD shall call."

Mark 13:27 says, "And then (1st day of the Millennium) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those caught up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

The 1st Rapture catches up the Bride group. They are the ones "accounted worthy to escape" in Luke 21:36. They are caught up at the first trump of God (I Thess. 4:16,17). At the 2nd Rapture, "whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered" at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52) at the last day. John 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." There is a first day and a last day.

> > There is to be a SOLAR ECLIPSE on OCTOBER 3, 2005. This is the start of the Jewish FEAST OF TRUMPETS. A LUNAR ECLIPSE takes place on OCTOBER 17, 2005, which is the starting date of the FEAST OF TABERNACLES. Also, April 24, 2005 is the last lunar eclipse before the one on the Feast of Tabernacles. It's the date the Jews celebrate the last Passover, representing the last opportunity they will have to accept the True Passover Lamb before GOD'S WRATH IS POURED OUT AGAIN. (emphasis mine)

The wrath of God will be poured out one time. At that time, the globe is turned upside down. That only happens on the day when "there shall be a time of trouble (Jacob's) , such as NEVER WAS SINCE THEIR WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people shall be delivered (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them shat sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Dan. 12:1,2). Jer. 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."

> > They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Notice the angels gather the saints FROM THE HEAVENS, NOT THE EARTH. This is because at this time, both Raptures have taken place and the saints are all in Heaven already).

Mark 13:27 shows that this is the day when the 2nd Rapture takes place. We have to put all scriptures on the same subject together to get all the clues. This is so the unbeliever will not be able to work the puzzle. None of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand (Dan. 12:10).

> > Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God." The Jews celebrate this on the 10th day of their New Year (first month, not 7th) and so also, God had it set aside for the "Gentiles" to be on the 10th day of THEIR New Year/New Millennium. Exodus 19:10-16 - And the Lord said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow (January 7 and 8, 2001, for the resurrected dead and April 8 and 9, 2001, for the "Raptured" Christians).

I don't think the resurrected dead will be raised until the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place. It is possible, but wouldn't that have Christ hanging around in the air until we were caught up? That doesn't seem too likely since "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:17).

> > where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. (The "time" is 12 hours, so this represents 42 hours Ė see point 75). Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a RIVER, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and SWALLOWING THE RIVER that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." The raptured church is taken for 42 hours starting April 8, 2001, to a place prepared for us by God.

A "time" is a year (Rev. 12:6,14). The "time, times and half a time" start Mid-Trib. The 1st Rapture is before the Tribulation, not in the middle of it. It seems that only Moses and Elijah are caught up Mid-Trib.

> > we are already over 2 years into the final 7 years before Christ returns to the earth.

I think the Tribulation is still future, but near.

When I went back to her article, I started scrolling on down the page. This popped out at me: "on this Gentile Feast of Pentecost, there will be FIRE falling ("UFO invasion") to purify those left behind and send out a mighty missionary force as has never been seen in the history of the world. This would put the Gentile Feast of Pentecost on February 28, 2001, 40 days after the male baby was born, the Day of Atonement/Firstfruits."

I disagree. Put it aside. Agape

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Thank you Marilyn, It sounded confused to me, but I thought it important to run it by you. Waiting to see you home real soon! Thank you so much for helping me keep focused. I get excited about relating issues, but your guidance keeps my focus on scripture. Love In Jesus

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Re: Dream
I have skimmed your pages on "The Way" and couldn't find what I was looking for so I am writing you. I had a dream the other night and in the dream my sister and her family were trapped in a collapsed appartment building that they just moved into. It was nighttime and I looked up at the sky and found the constellation of a HUGE LION. The Lion was unusual in that it was a drawing and not just the stars. The entire LION was in view and it was extremly large! Then as I turned to see if there were any other constellations like this in the sky and to my amazement I saw the TWINS ladies one above the other one, but close together like. And then next to them was a small bear. I began to pray for my sister and her family who just moved here and are looking for a home to live in. They are all Christians. I was pacing and praying fervently for their safety. But when I saw that Huge Lion the sensing I got was It's all about over...the end of life as we know it is drawing to an end.

What do you think about this and what are the picutures respresenting?

My reply

It is hard to know if dreams are meaningful or not. I have had 3 of Heaven and will have to wait until I get there to know if the details are true or not. In one, I saw Ed's grandmother cooking in a kitchen with lots of children, very typical of her. She is in Heaven for she was a strong believer. In the other two, I saw a boy that accepted Christ because of me and then was killed by a land mine in Viet Nam. I know that both are there, but beyond that, I'll have to wait and see.

Re: your dream: This much I know, Leo, the lion stands for Jesus Christ, the Lion of the tribe of Judah. The sign of Leo is Judah's sign. Gemini probably is the sign of the Rapture, when the Bride of Christ will sit together with Him in heavenly places in the spring. Eph. 2:6 says, "raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." In Gemini, the Bride and Bridegroom sit on the ecliptic, as Heaven literally travels the ecliptic. The little bear (Ursa Minor) was in the ancient times the Lesser Sheepfold. It stands for the believers that will be Raptured in the Pre-Trib Rapture. We are living in the end times. These things seem to be related to these times. Agape

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Re: Morning Star
I've seen bits and pieces online about a star that will appear in the sky on Easter, which also appeared on the day that Jesus rose from the dead. Could you please let me know if you've heard about it? Thank you.

My reply

If I remember right, Venus is to rise on Easter just before daylight. I don't think Venus is the morning star of Rev. 2:28. That seems to be Saturn, the 3rd heaven Paul visited (II Cor. 12:2-7). Agape

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FWD: Jim Bramlett's new position
...While we may not be sure, there are interesting reasons to believe that the final seven years may have begun in 1998. If true, the classic pre-trib rapture position that the rapture must be BEFORE the final seven years, is not valid, and we are at or very close to the final 3 * years. This may seem like heresy to traditional thinking, but we see through a glass darkly and God's plan may not unfold exactly the way we have aways seen it. I remain open.

This is especially interesting in view of the reported recent and profound proclamation of the 27 leading rabbis in Israel that Israel is now in the prophetic "time of Jacobís trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7).

Adding to the interest is this: If Jesus was crucified in A.D. 33 as many believe, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was 37 years later in A.D. 70. If the fig tree (Israel) began to "put forth its leaves" in the 1967 Six-Day War when she captured Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, then 1967 + 37 = the 2004/2005 time period depending on where the count starts. This is also compatible with a seven-year countdown beginning in 1998.

My reply

Re: Food for thought
What happens at the beginning of the Tribulation?

(1) The Beast is given power over ALL nations and ALL religions

As the 1st seal is broken, Rev. 6:2 says, "I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow (toxon, fabric, i;e., this man is a man of the cloth, probably the Pope); and a CROWN was given unto him" (over OWG, One World Gov't and UR, United Religions).

The Beast is to "continue forty and two months" (Rev. 13:3). This is the same time span as the 2 witnesses' 1260 days, the 1st half of the Tribulation. And "power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS. AND ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP HIM, WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE."

The Beast appears AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture, because he opens "his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN" (Rev. 13:6).

(2) Moses and Elijah arrive on Earth and begin to prophesy

Rev. 11:3 says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

(3) The covenant of Dan. 9:27 is confirmed, Jews start sacrificing

"And he (the False Prophet) shall confirm the covenant with many (United Nations) for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Thus, the Jews start to sacrifice at the beginning of the Tribulation.

(4) The 10 kings are crowned, but receive "no kingdom as yet"

Rev. 13:1 says, "I stood upon the sand of the sea (nations, Rev. 17:15), and saw a beast (the great red dragon) rise up out of the sea (nations), having seven heads and TEN HORNS, and upon his horns TEN CROWNS, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

Rev. 17:12 says, "the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Have any of these things happened yet? No! Then neither has the Tribulation started.

What has to happen before the Tribulation can start?

The Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (ek, out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

The Holy Spirit in the salt of the Earth will restrain the appearance of the False Prophet "until he (the Holy Spirit in us) be taken out of the way" (i.e., at the Rapture)(II Thess. 2:7).

Has the Pre-Trib Rapture taken place? No! Then the Tribulation has not started.

> > 27 leading rabbis in Israel that Israel is now in the prophetic "time of Jacobís trouble"

The Rabbis don't understand that Jacob's trouble is one day, the Day of God's Wrath. Dan. 12:1,2 says, "at that time (when the False Prophet shall come to his end, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people shall be delivered (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."

> > If Jesus was crucified in A.D. 33

Is that possible? Herod's temple was begun in BC 19/20. The 46th year was 27 AD, the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry. That puts the Crucifixion in 30 AD for there were 4 Passovers.

26 AD was Tiberius' 15th year. He began to reign over Palestine in 12 AD. He was Co-Rex with Augustus until 14 AD, but Augustus did not rule over Palestine from 12 AD on. This puts the baptism of Jesus in 26 AD.

In 26 AD, Jesus was baptized near his 30th birthday. That puts his birth in 5 BC.

> > 1967 + 37 = the 2004/2005 time period depending on where the count starts. This is also compatible with a seven-year countdown beginning in 1998.

1967 + 40 = 2007. The last 7 years would be (1) 2001, (2) 2002, (3) 2003, (4) 2004, (5) 2005, (6) 2006, (7) 2007.

According to Dan. 8:13,14, the time when the Jews will sacrifice plus the time that the won't because the temple is desecrated is 2300 days. From Pentecost in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 is 2300 days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning.

There were 9 times that we could add 2300 days to Pentecost/Feast of Weeks and end on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the Jewish New Year. Christ will return on the following Nisan 1. Our years following each of the 2300-day periods are 1993, 1996, 1997, 2000, 2004, 2008, 1012, 2013, and 2015.

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