Pro and Con 733

Posted 4-15-01

Happy Easter!

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Re: crucifixion
I just wondered if you had ever heard that Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday and rose on Friday? I just wondered too, if in fact this is true,then does it have any prophetical implications? Thank you for sharing any information you might have on this.

My reply

Yes. I read an article in BIOLA's Kings Business Magazine, by R.A. Torrey, if I remember right. He decided the Crucifixion was on Wednesday. I set out to see if it was truly on Wednesday or Friday and came away thoroughly convinced that it was on Thurdsay. :-)

Let's look at the clues:
A. "Jesus, six days before the passover (Nisan 14, Friday), came to Bethany" (John 12:1,12,13) The next day was Palm Sunday. The 6 days were (1) Sat., (2) Sun., (3) Mon., (4) Tue., (5) Wed., (6) Thur.

B. On the "third day rise again" (Luke 24:7). These days were (1) Fri., (2) Sat., (3) Sun.

C. Christ was "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40). These were Thur. (day), Fri. (night then day), Sat. (night then day), and Sunday (night).

D. Sunday was the "third day since" (Mt. 24:21). These were (1) Fri., (2) Sat., (3) Sun.

E. It was "Not on the feast day" (Mark 14:2), i.e., not on Friday, Nisan 14, the Passover (Lev. 23:5).

F. It was "the preparation of the passover" (John 19:14), i.e., it was on Thursday, Nisan 13. Agape

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Re: 2 Thess 2:1-4
I love your site. Keep up the Lords good work. In reading Donna Dannas post on "the Day of Christ" being the rapture in 2 Thess. 2:2, I too have struggled with this verse for a long time and asked God to give me wisdom on it. About a year ago, I believe the Holy Spirit spoke to me and told me to substitute the word `rapture' for the Day of Christ and then read the verse IN CONTEXT and see if it made sense. So I did, and it became very clear to me that it could not be talking of the rapture. Here is the verse and here is why: 2 Thess. 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the (rapture) is at hand(enistemi strongs 1764 - .present 3, things present 2, be at hand 1, come 1; 7)

Why would the Thessalonians be SHAKEN IN MIND, that the rapture is at hand? Why would the Thessalonians be TROUBLED that the rapture is at hand?

If someone had written them a letter(NOR BY A LETTER AS FROM US) that the rapture was at hand, wouldn't they be rejoicing? Wouldn't they be dancing in the streets?

Applying the rature to the state of mind of the Thessalonians clearly shows that it is not the rapture, but the Day of the LORD. This church was under severe persecution. So severe that someone wrote them a letter telling them they were in the Day of the LORD. This is why they were SHAKEN IN MIND and TROUBLED. Paul admonishes them to not be deceived by this letter(LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU) and attempts to soothe them by telling them the Day of the LORD cannot come until the rapture occurs and the man of sin is revealed. Is there anything more exciting then when God opens up your eyes and reveals the truth to you? AGAPE.

My reply

Thank you much. I hadn't thought to do this. It does make the meaning clear.

When I learn something new, it often gives me goosebumps. When I looked up sapphire in Websters, and it said it meant dear to the planet Saturn, from the sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear, I got them bigtime. I also whispered, "So it's true." I had thought of Saturn being Heaven many times when I'd read certain scriptures, but would always say to myself, "Nah, that can't be." Well, I don't say that anymore. The clues are pretty clear.

Scofield's note on the 3 heavens was misleading and blinded me until that day. The 3 heavens Paul mentioned in II Cor. 12:2 are Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. He was "caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven" (Saturn), just as we will be at the Rapture. I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Agape

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Re: Help
One of my coworkers is deep into the "Prophecy Club" and I do not agree with many of their views. Recently, I exchanged several e-mails with her as she indicates that some of the tribulation judgements have already occured. Just wanted your opinion. Thanks

I recommend you get your Bible and a piece of paper. Write down the activities that make up each of the three judgements listed below. Prove me wrong....

They created a matrix listing the events around those prophecies and proved conclusively they are the same events. The trumphets, seals and vials run concurrently over various stretches of time and events. Take a piece of paper and mark down the events described in each of the three judgments.

I guess we will see....

I do not necessarily agree with your commentary as these are judgements that are heaped upon the earth during the tribulation period and have not occured yet. In fact as you said, if the days were not shortened, not many humans would be left. I believe that these are carried out in sequence so that those who are alive at the time will know who is in control and LORD.

I have highlighted my comments among the scriptures. I have also placed a comment at the bottom of the scriptures.

Rev 8:7-13 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. World War I

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. World War II - 1/3 of the ships at sea were destroyed is a proven fact. Very likely large amount of sea life killed by war.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl. Radioactivity from Chernobyl traveled by air over Europe and rains caused it to be on the land and in the water. Large number of people died and are continuing to die (30 year life of radioactivity) This is documented in libraries and on documentaries.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Not enough is know about this other than time must have been speeded up (we all would vouch for this). Science is very perplexed by the fact that the Universe is expanding and speeding up (not slowing down). This could explain time speeding up. Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the days would be shortened lest no flesh should be saved.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! (KJV)

Rev 9:1-21 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. ...9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The name Abaddon and Apollyon are translated "Destroyer". Saddam means "Destroyer". This trumphet represents the Gulf War era which appears to be continuing today. The oil fields of Kuwait caused the sky to be darkened for about five months. The description of the scopions is describing helicopters and airplanes.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men....18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths....The next big event is a war with China that would kill one third part of men. They are clearly planning this war with the U.S....

My reply

> > Someone did extensive research on Revelation and found an interesting fact. The seventh trumphet, the six seal and the seventh vial are the same event.

All three are part of the great cataclysm that hits Earth as the millennial Day of the Lord begins, but the earthquake comes in waves, building up to a great crescendo. It starts with the 6th seal on the last day of this age, hits again at the 7th trumpet on the 1st day of the Millennium, and becomes the worst ever at the 7th vial.

1ST WAVE. At the 6th seal, Rev. 6:12,13 describes a GREAT EARTHQUAKE. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Remember how the string-of-pearls comet pieces hit Jupiter in succession? This type of thing will happen to Earth. Under the 6th seal, the pieces coming in are small, probably released when the binary asteroid breaks apart.

2ND WAVE. At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:19 says, "the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an EARTHQUAKE, and great hail."

3RD WAVE. At the 7th vial, Rev. 16:17-21 says, "the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, SO MIGHTY AN EARTHQUAKE, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent" (about 100 pounds).

It seems that The Revelation of Jesus Christ is organized by using circle clocks. The circle clock is 6 circles in a ring inside an enclosing ring plus a 7th circle in the center. These are the 7 seals. The central 7th circle seal has another smaller circle clock in it. Out of the 7th seal come the 7 trumpet judgments. In the 7th trumpet circle is another circle clock. These are the 7 vials that come out of the 7th trumpet.

Thus, we have 7 seals spread over the 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) of the shortened Tribulation, one opening about once a year until the Tribulation is shortened between the 6th and 7th seals. The 6th seal is broken on the last day of this age. The 7th seal is broken the next day, the first day of the Millennium, the Day of God's Wrath. The 7 trumpets sound. When the 7th one sounds, the MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, AS HE HATH DECLARED TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS" (Rev. 10:7).

On the Day of God's Wrath, Isa. 28:21,22 will be understood. It says, "the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do HIS WORK, HIS STRANGE WORK; AND BRING TO PASS HIS ACT, HIS STRANGE ACT. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts A CONSUMPTION, EVEN DETERMINED UPON THE WHOLE EARTH." The strange work is the binary asteroid impact of Rev. 8:8,10. It brings on the worldwide earthquake.

The seals introduce tribulations. As Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, begins at 6 PM on the last day of this age, "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME" (Rev. 6:17). When the 7th seal is broken, there is silence on Earth and in Heaven as Christ is seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Thus the 7th seal introduces the 7 trumpets that bring the judgments that are the wrath of God. Rev. 14:19 says, "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the WRATH OF GOD. In turn, the 7th trumpet introduces the 7 vials that fill up the wrath of God. Rev. 15:1 says, "the seven last plagues; for in them is FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD."

The action started at the 6th seal and continued by the trumpets is completed in the vials. I agree with you that these are all still future and that "these are carried out in sequence."

> > an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I think the hour is noon (Zech. 2:4,5), the month and day are Tishri 1, the year is 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). Agape

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From: Dean Van Druff, Re: New Posting
I would like to get your read and critique of:

My reply

I don't know where to look for the new posting. This is dated July, 1999. My comments are marked *** and interspersed in the excerpts below.
A Framework for Discerning Apocalyptic (End Times) Teachings
by Dean VanDruff, July 1999

Acts 1:6-7 (NAS) So when they had come together, they were asking [Jesus], saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority." Acts 1:7 (NIV) He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

***Since the file is way too long for me to find time to read it all, why quote the same verse twice? It would have been better to use the space to quote v. 8 in the NASB instead. It says, "but you ('apostles,' v. 1) shall (in the future) receive power (i.e., 'to know the times or epochs') when the Holy Spirit has come upon you." After Pentecost, 30 AD, believers have had the power to discern the signs of the times. However, there was one clue missing. Therefore, they were to watch.

***When Israel grew leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights) and fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34 in the Six-Day War of 1967, it became possible for believers to work out the schedule of end-time events. That war was the Sign of the End of the Age (Mt. 24:3).

***"Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (lit., ages) are come" (I Cor. 10:11). The Ends of the Ages is the 70th week of Dan. 9:27, the Tribulation. Since it is the end of the 2000-year Age of the Jews, I think it is also the end of the the 2000-year Age of the Gentiles and the the 2000-year Age of the Church. Rev. 3:10 (KJV) says, "Because thou (the Philadelphian ekklesia, called out ones) hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, out of, i.e., by calling them out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which SHALL COME (after the Rapture) upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

***What happened unto Israel for an example here at the end of this age? In Mt. 23:36, Jesus told the Pharisees, "All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION." They did, in 70 AD. Counting Palm Sunday, when the Pharisees refused Jesus as King, as day #1, there were 40 years plus another 120 days from Palm Sunday in 30 AD to Av 10 in 70 AD, when the temple proper was burned and the temple area lost to the Jews.

***In our days, the temple area was regained on July 7, 1967. Counting that as day #1, there are 40 years plus another 120 days to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). I think that is the 2300th day (Dan. 8:13,14) of the Tribulation and the Day of God's Wrath when the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

***Counting backward 2300 days, by inclusive reckoning, from Tishri 1, 5768 we find that the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 will probably start on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001 (May 28, 2001). The Rapture may take place just before the covenant is confirmed. Get ready (read II Peter 1:4-11 and I John 1:9), just in case. Current events show that the Tribulation is drawing nigh. That makes the Rapture drawing nigh.

***The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when we see him revealed to us at the Rapture. Revelation is written as if to us now that the Rapture is "at hand." It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come QUICKLY." He comes quickly at the Rapture.

***Some of the ekklesia can be left behind. Rev. 2:5 says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee QUICKLY, and will remove thy candlestick out of HIS PLACE (Heaven), except thou repent." Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Mat 24:36 (NIV) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

We all know that our Lord said this, and yet we prefer to ignore it or explain it away since we figure that we are wiser than Jesus. If taken as true, it would surely ruin one of our favorite sins we have allowed within the church: arrogance in pretending knowledge where Jesus said "It is not for you to know".

***I am not arrogant. I am a very humble person, and I humbly ask you to reconsider your position. There is not much time left. We don't want to waste it spinning our wheels. In the above, the word "knows" is present tense. On that day, no one knew when "Heaven and earth shall pass away." Now, we can know.

***I think it is 40 years plus another 120 days from June 7, 1967, i.e., Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). On that day, I think that II Peter 3:10-12 will come true. It says, "the day of the Lord (the Millennium) will come (i.e., 1st day) as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT?"

Ps 131:1 (NAS) O Lord, my heart is not proud, nor my eyes haughty; Nor do I involve myself in great matters, Or in things too difficult for me.

Let us admit that we all have a fleshly desire that runs counter to David's sentiment, above. We want to know what is contraband and forbidden, and thus to primp and strut in this knowledge. And some have this fleshly desire much more than others. Should they be offered up as "prophecy experts", or rebuked? For the Father has made it plain, through no less than the Son, that it is "not for us to know".

De 29:29a (NIV) "The secret things belong to the Lord our God."

***One with this kind of an attitude can blind himself/herself to the things that belong to the ekklesia. We have been given the battle plan appropriate for us and have been given our marching orders to get prepared in purity and holiness. And we should know the seasons and not be caught unaware (Mt 24:33-51, 1Th 5:4, 2Th 2:3) like the unbelieving world. But yet we hanker to be the ones who "figured it out" in some illicit detail that would give us reason to boast--and this is the defining difference. It must be admitted that over-confident boasting, hype, and puffery are the hallmark of much End-Times teaching; and that mental conceit is glaring among many End-Times teachers. It is easier to see this in others than in ourselves, but is it not true?...

***Who is boasting? It sure isn't me. I am too busy studying Scripture to even think of such.

In summation, we do not have a single example in scripture of anyone boasting "That is just like I/we figured out it would be". On the other hand, we have the preponderance of examples in scripture of people recognizing the glory of God after the fact. In the rare case where God did give a prophet an interpretation and/or understanding before the fact (Dan 9), it was not so that he could boast or primp; rather, the fruit of such rare revelation was fearful humility and lamentation rather than bombast / boasting in intellectual prowess. Is this what we presently observe among us? Let us honestly consider the real and present danger of arrogance and the potential for "knowledge" to "puff up" (1Cor 8:1-3), and take pains to be included in the group that is steeped in the word of God and open to the surprise of His glorious fulfillment. Most importantly, let us not take our opinions so seriously that we will be found reacting in anger towards God if He does not do it the way we figured out....

***You wait to be surprised. I've got my head in the Bible. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you ALL THINGS." I believe what the Lord says. Every clue we need is there. All we have to do is look for them. I am not an ostrich with my head in the sand. I'm lookin.

But what if God directly speaks to us--in whatever way we have come to hear His voice? What if He tells us to go build an ark or leave a city forthwith? Well, in that case, then we had better get cracking. It matters little if anyone else agrees or works with us, we must obey the Lord and let Him be the judge of the outcome. While a personal sense of mission that is extra-biblical might well be wrong, we should not be judging another servant (Rom 14:4) unless it is in violation of scripture or fails the spirit or fruit tests. Simply offending human convention and custom is not a valid reason to reject another person's apocalyptic mission if received by direct revelation. Jesus often flouted the human additions and interpretations of the Sabbath laws, for example, and greatly vexed and offended those who were doctrinaire about such. But back to the point: If we believe that God has spoken to us, we must do what has been commanded and trust that God will keep us from error if we seek Him with a pure heart and are open to correction from Him.

***God woke me in the night. I was absolutely terrified. My heart was beating like a little bird trying to get out. I heard God say, "Be still and know that I am God." My heart was instantly quiet. It took about 20 years before I understood what that was all about. I was reading Job 33:14-16 when it hit me. Here is what it says, "For when the Lord speaks once, or a second time, sending a dream, or in the meditation of the night; (as when a dreadful alarm happens to fall upon men, in slumberings on the bed:) then opens he the understanding of men."

God also put a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It said to publish and conceal not. I am doing the best I can to do just that. I hope you can see that I am sincere. I wish you the best. Please be sure you are ready, just in case the Rapture would take place this Pentecost. Agape

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RE: U F O's
I have been reading your P & C's for the past 6 months with great interests. I appreciate your courage to broach a subject that invites much scorn, but hopefully, it also promotes Bible study and self-searching. My question: I have just completed two books, one by a good Gospel preacher, the other by an army officer who was greatly involved in much of the military development of our Star Wars Technology. There seems to be more to UFO's than we have been officially told. The minister thinks they are Demoniac in orgin, activity and purpose. What do you think, if you have an opinion? In Him and LOOKING!

My reply

I agree with the minister. Have you ever noticed how the details in the accounts are always different? Fallen angels are masters at playing with the minds of mankind. Their intent? to confuse mankind, to divert his interest away from Bible study, etc. No UFO account I ever read mentioned seeing a Bible, much less reading or quoting one. Agape

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Re: Ezek. 44 and the Temple Mount Faithful
Do you know the spiritual signifance of this scripture and then also chapter 46 of Ezekiel regarding the gateway of the inner court that faces toward the east that shall be shut the six working days, but on the Sabbath it shall be opened and on the day of the New Moon it shall be opened. Is this a picture of the mellinium possibly? Who was Zadok?

Chapter 46 is very interesting and is elluding to a hidden meaning possibly the rapture and the mellinium I am not sure. Would you please read and comment on this Marilyn. Your words of wisdom are greatly appreciated! Thanks so much! Love

My reply

I'm no authority on this. I know the Eastern Gate is now sealed up. However, I don't know for sure if this is the same thing as Eze. 44:1's "gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut." I assume it is, but I could be wrong.

I was surprised that the Temple Mount Faithful asked for the Eastern Gate to be opened when Eze. 44:2 says, "Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut."

Even though these measurements are thought to be measurements for the millennial temple, there may be other secrets hidden in these chapters. Eze. 44:5 says, "the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary." In Eze. 41:23,24, we read, "And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors. And the doors had two leaves apiece, two turning leaves; two leaves for the one door, and two leaves for the other door." Two doors might be a clue that there are two Raptures. Mt. 24:32-34's fig tree parable mentions "doors."

Eze. 46:1 is interesting. It says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened." I think Christ will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1, the new moon, 1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Years. And look what Eze. 45:18 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1), thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY." That fits the Second Advent, doesn't it? We know it is Nisan and not Tishri, because v. 21 mentions the Passover on the 14th of the first month.

Zadok was a high priest when David was king. He also anointed Solomon king. Agape

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