Pro and Con 737

Posted 4-24-01

Long incoming e-mail split between this and the next Pro and Con.
My reply follows on that and another Pro and Con

...You have been getting a lot of e-mails lately in which people are pointing out various Biblical contradictions that relate back to your view that Daniel 8 is referring to the False Prophet. Even the "babes feeding on milk" can see the glaring contradictions that result when you force the False Prophet into being the king of fierce countenance. No one, Marilyn, can follow your reasoning on this. It is so off base and so diametrically in contradiction with so many other Scriptures, it is impossible to follow. I know you know I'm telling you this in Agape....

Daniel is written in Aramaic and Hebrew. Chapter 1 is in Hebrew as are chapters' 8-12. Chapters 2:4 thru the end of chapter 7 are in Aramaic. As Arno Gaebelein said, "The reason for this is very simple. What concerns these [eastern] empires is written down in their own language and what concerns the Jews is written in Hebrew."

Chapter 2 is a view of four gentile world empires as seen through Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Chapter 7 narrows down this view of the four empires to focus on the fourth empire and specifically to the final leader, the 11th Horn, who rises out of this fourth empire and who will rule it up to the Second Coming. There is no scholastic argument that this fourth empire is the old Roman Empire and that its final ruler, the 11th Horn, comes out of this empire. However, Daniel's vision in chapter 7 gives NO indication as to the nation from which the final ruler will come. The Roman Empire extended from the Rhine and Danube River valleys of Europe east to the Tigris River. All of the North African countries including most of Egypt were also part of the Roman Empire. The 11th horn can come from anywhere in this territory.

If you are of the persuasion that this final form of the Roman Empire will include the entire world, then the 11th Horn could come from any country of the world. The first seven chapters of Daniel do not give even one indication as to the nation of origin of the 11th Horn.

As chapter 7 narrowed down the view from chapter 2, the Hebrew language chapters 8-12 narrow down even further the big-picture view presented in the first seven chapters. To facilitate the true understanding of these chapters, Marilyn, I will use your tried and true method of "match marks" which you explain in P&C 705. You said, "In these parenthetical sections, we have to look for "match marks"' to see where they belong in the chronology. The Lord did not want to make the account so simple to figure out that the unbelievers could understand it. Dan. 12:10 says, "Many shall be purified, and made white (Rev. 7:14), and TRIED; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."'

I do understand the above quote of yours was specifically referring to the parenthetical portions of Revelation, however, you do use the "match mark" method in identifying other scriptures that belong together because of common word usages or common settings.

Chapters 8-12 of Daniel contain the most obvious "match mark"statements in the entire Bible and are fully explained by Jesus' own words in Matthew, Mark, and Revelation. Daniel's match mark is the cessation of the daily sacrifice and the abomination at the midpoint of the tribulation.

In Matthew 24.15-16, Jesus makes the following statement. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains": We know from numerous scriptures that this takes place at the midpoint of the tribulation at the same time the seven-year treaty is broken and at the same time the daily sacrifice is taken away from the Jews in Jerusalem.

Jesus clearly states that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel is an event that is future to Himself. Knowing will all foreknowledge that the critics would attempt to place the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy in the past through Antiochus Epiphanes around 165 BC, Jesus admonishes the reader to pay attention to the fact that this is a FUTURE event by saying "whoso readeth, let him understand."

Daniel speaks of Jesus' match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination three different times in chapters 8-12.

8.11-12. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

9.27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

11.31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 8-12 is speaking of one person and one person only: the antichrist. Verses 8.11-12 were not fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 BC because Jesus says this is a future event. To me, the words of Jesus have the final say.

Even should you discount the words of Jesus, the text itself is clear that the 2300 days of 8.14 is an end-time event. Arno Gaebelein looked at it the same as you but he contradicted his own view in his explanation of the 2300 days being fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes when he said, "These 2300 days cover about the period of time during which Antiochus Epiphanes did his wicked deeds"

"About" 2300 days doesn't cut the mustard. As you and I both well know, if the 2300 days of 8.14 were not exactly 2300 days, then the Holy Spirit would have inspired Daniel to write "About" 2300 days just as He clarified Himself in Joshua 10.13. "And the sun stood still.... So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

Also, Marilyn, I think all the verses of 8.9-14 must be read as occurring at the same time. I think you are really stretching it way past the limit when you claim 8.10 occurred in 165 BC but 8.14 will happen in the future. You just can't randomly assign scripture to fit a predetermined position. Antiochus Epiphanes was certainly a type, or shadow, of the antichrist; but to claim the match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination in 8.11-12 was fulfilled through him is disregarding the words of Jesus.

Just as chapter 7 zoomed in from the big picture of the four world empires of chapter 2 to show the Roman empire and the little horn, the 11th Horn, that would rise out of the ten horns, chapter 8 zooms in even closer and shows that the little horn will come from the territories of Alexander's Greek empire.

After Daniel's vision ended in 8.14, Gabriel interprets the little horn as a future Greek king. Then Gabriel zooms in even closer and gives more specifics about the last king of the Greeks who will be the one who attempts to stand against Jesus at the Second Coming: the king of fierce countenance; the antichrist, the 11th horn. We know this is the antichrist because of the match marks of the sacrifice and the abomination in 8.11-12.

Chapter 9 is where an incredible leap has been taken by virtually all Biblical scholars. The assumption is made that the little horn, the 11th horn, rises out of a European nation, specifically having the city of Rome in mind. Rome definitely plays a key role in the prophecies as can easily be seen in Revelation 17 by the Great Whore, who represents the prostitute church. But it is a religious role only.

Rome may well be the capital of the ten-nation confederacy at its conception. But Daniel plainly states that the little horn, the 11th horn, will overthrow three of the ten nations after the formation of the confederacy. Revelation 17 shows the confederacy shortly before its formation. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.... And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (12-16)

At some point after the ten kings confederate, they give their power over to the little horn, the 11th horn, the antichrist. He then uproots three of the ten. These facts are all confirmed in various books throughout the Scriptures.

The scholars are quick to point out the connection between the legs of iron on Nebuchadnezzar's image in Daniel 2 and the two legs of the old Roman empire: the divided eastern and western empires. However, when it comes to the future ten-nation confederacy and out of which nation the little horn, the 11th horn, will arise, they completely ignore the entire eastern division of the old Roman Empire. The conclusion that the little horn, the 11th horn, is from the western leg of the empire and is a European is totally without biblical merit. It is strictly an assumption,

It appears the western empire conclusion is based on only one verse in the Bible-or more accurately, one fourth of one verse: Daniel 9.26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The scholars contend that "the people of the prince that shall come" is referring to the destruction of Rome by Titus Vespasianus, a Roman prince, in 70 A.D. Thus, "the people" are Romans. They assume Daniel is referring to the Titus destruction of the past. However, 9.26-27 makes it clear that the particular destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary to which Daniel in chapter 9 is referring is THE final destruction: the one that continues up until the end of the seven-year tribulation of verse 27 and the Second Coming. Also, the match marks of the sacrifice and the abomination in verse 27 makes it clear this is the same person and the same event as 8.11-12 which Jesus tells us is a FUTURE event.

The little horn, the 11th horn, the antichrist cannot come from Rome because in chapter 8, Gabriel says he will come from one of the four divisions of Alexander's empire. Of the four, only Macedonia was in the western division of the old Roman Empire. All the remainder of Alexander's empire was in the eastern division which did not include Rome. For the little horn to come from the western division and still comply with chapter 8's geographical requirements, the antichrist would have to come from modern day Greece. It's the only overlap with the western division of the old Roman Empire.

The first verse of chapter 10 lets us know that more understanding of the vision is to be revealed to Daniel. This is still the same vision of chapter 8 that was continued thru chapter 9. Daniel is told the vision is what will happen to Israel in the latter days (14).

Just as chapter 8 zoomed in on the Greek empire, chapter 11 zooms in even further on the Greek empire with detailed prophecies concerning the four divisions born out of Alexander's empire. To give the scholars' credit where credit is due, they did an excellent job with their historical investigations that proved the prophecies contained in 11.1-20 have all been fulfilled in the past.

However, the scholars made the assumption that 11.31 was also fulfilled in the past by Antiochus Epiphanes. But 11.31 is the match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination. By the words of Jesus, we know this match mark occurs at the time of the end, not in 165 BC with Antiochus Epiphanes.

To find the break in chapter 11 where the fulfilled prophecies end and the end time prophecies begin, we must back up from 11.31 which we know by the match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination is future. This section of unfulfilled prophecies begins with verse 21, the vile king, and it is this vile king, the antichrist, the little horn, the 11th king who is the subject of the remainder of the chapter just as he has been the subject since the beginning of chapter 8. The match marks of the sacrifice and the abomination of chapters 8, 9, and 11 also bear this out.

John gives the definition of the antichrist in his first letter. "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (2.22)

The little horn, the 11th king, the vile king, the antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God. You believe the pope is the antichrist; but how long do you think a pope would last if he told the world that Jesus was not really the Son of God? Misguided as the Catholics are in their scriptural interpretations, they would never buy into this one: except under one scenario.

The Koran teaches that Jesus was a great prophet who did not really die on the cross. It claims Jesus lived some years after surviving the cross and died a natural death. When Jesus came before God, God greatly chastised him for having lied to the world by saying he was the Son of God. His punishment would be that Jesus would have to return to earth at the end of time and tell the world that he had lied about being the Son of God. Jesus' return would coincide with the coming of the great "Final" Prophet of Allah who will appear at the end of this age riding a great white horse (sound familiar?). This great final Prophet will lead the world forever in peace with Jesus and his denial of the Son leading the parade.

I believe that after the Rapture and the formation of the ten-nation confederacy at the beginning of the tribulation, the Pope will become the great whore of Revelation 17. But the whore's fate is sealed in 17.16-18 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast and the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Whatever city the whore may be, I believe it and the Pope are destroyed by fire around the same time the antichrist is killed at mid-trib. Lucifer enters the new Pope (or the old Pope, should he survive the fire) and then becomes the false prophet who says he is Jesus. He then confesses his 2000 year old "lie" about being the Son of God to Allah and the world. The world accepts everything he has to say, especially after he brings the Muslim antichrist back to life.

Origin of the antichrist
In the match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination of Daniel 8.9-14, we are told in verse 9 that the little horn, the 11th king, the antichrist, waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [west]. This means the antichrist starts out somewhere east of Israel. The reason that the direction of north is not mentioned is because Gog is north and is, initially, an ally of the antichrist.

To stay within the geographical requirements of the Roman empire of Daniel 7 and the Greek empire of Daniel 8, you can go no further east of Israel than the eastern edge of the Tigris River valley. This was the eastern boundary of the Roman Empire.

In Daniel's vision that begins in chapter 8, he saw himself in Shushan, Persia by the river Ulai. Today, this is the city of Shush, Iran and the river is Karkhen. Shush is at the foot of Zagros Mountain range that is where the eastern portion of the Tigris River valley ends which was the eastern boundary of the Roman Empire. Shush is 150 miles north of the mouth of the Euphrates River and 45 miles east of the Iraqi/Iran border. Shush fits the geographical requirements of both Daniel 7 and 8 and is due east of Israel.

I believe Daniel is telling us the area from which the antichrist will come. Basically, it around the Kuwait, Iraq, Iran border area. However, the entire area of the Tigris/Euphrates river valley from the Persian Gulf to northern Iraq and Syria fits all of the geographical requirements found in the book of Daniel.

The way I see it Marilyn, the antichrist will be a Muslim religious person who unites the entire Muslim world. He confirms the treaty that the ten-nation confederacy pushes on the world in the aftermath of the disruption and chaos caused by the Rapture. It is this Muslim antichrist that carries out the dirty deed of the match mark of the sacrifice and the abomination.

Isaiah refers to this Muslim antichrist as the Assyrian and in chapters 6-10 tells how God will use the Assyrian to punish Israel in the years immediately preceding the Second Coming. These chapters are mostly concerned with end-time events. There are a few verses that the Assyrian invasions of the past fulfill, however, right in the middle of these chapters is the very verse that speaks of types and shadows: verse 8.18. "Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion."

Isaiah's writings about the Assyrian, the Muslim antichrist, tell not only about Israel's destruction during the tribulation but primarily deal with the Assyrian's destruction and the events leading up to it. The following are just a few of the many verses in Isaiah that show the Assyrian is the antichrist and is the same person Daniel refers to as the little horn, the 11th horn, the vile king, the king of fierce countenance, the [Muslim] prince to come.

Isaiah 9.14-15
Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

Isaiah 10:5-6
O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation [Israel], and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Isaiah 10:24-26
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian [the Muslim antichrist]: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction. And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him [the Muslim antichrist] according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb [a type or shadow of Armageddon].

Isaiah 10.12
Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem [AFTER the Second Coming], I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria [the Muslim antichrist], and the glory of his high looks.

Isaiah 30:31
For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian [the Muslim antichrist] be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

Isaiah 14:25-27
I will break the Assyrian [the Muslim antichrist] in my land, and on my mountains trample him under foot; his yoke shall be removed from them, and his burden from their shoulders. This is the plan that is planned concerning the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Micah 5:5-6
And this man [Jesus] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian [the Muslim antichrist] shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian [the Muslim antichrist], when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Isaiah 9:4-7
For thou [Jesus at the Second Coming] hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor [the Assyrian, the Muslim antichrist], as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born [Jesus], unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

All of Isaiah's Assyrian and Daniel's little horn, vile king, etc. easily mesh together as the antichrist without any scriptural contradictions that I can find.

Another match mark in Daniel is the word "overflow" (Strong's #7857) in 11.22, 26, 40. This word is used throughout the Old Testament in prophecies concerning the Muslim antichrist. It is associated with either his military sweep through Israel and the surrounding countries or his destruction by the hand of God. This "overflow" match mark meshes in neatly with Isaiah's Assyrian and Daniel's little horn, vile king, Muslim antichrist without any scriptural contradictions that I can find. This is one more indicator that these are all the same people: the Muslim antichrist.

Daniel 11:22
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown form before him [the Muslim antichrist], and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant [the high priest in charge of the Jewish Temple sacrifice allowed by the seven-year treaty/covenant that was confirmed by the Muslim antichrist in Dan 9.27].

Daniel 11:26
Yea, they [king of Egypt] that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his [the Muslim antichrist] army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

Daniel 11:40
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south [Egypt] push at him [the Muslim antichrist]: and the king of the north [Gog and his allies] shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships [all but one sixth of which is destroyed]; and he [the Muslim antichrist in retaliation] shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Isaiah 8:8
And he [the Muslim antichrist] shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Isaiah 28:2
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. [destruction of the Muslim antichrist's armies]

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye [Israel] have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge [the Muslim antichrist's armies] shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:17
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. [destruction of the Muslim antichrist's armies]

Isaiah 28:18
And your [Israel] covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge [the Muslim antichrist's armies] shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isaiah 30:28
And his [God's] breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. [destruction of the Muslim antichrist's armies]

Jeremiah 47:2
Thus saith the LORD; Behold, waters [tidal wave from an asteroid hit in the Mediterranean Sea] rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein: then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl. [destruction of the Muslim antichrist's armies]

Ezekiel 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [destruction of the Muslim antichrist's armies]

Another clue indicating the geographical origin of a Middle Eastern antichrist concerns angelic beings known as the "chief princes". In Daniel 9.21-22, the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to give him skill and understanding concerning Daniel's vision of the king of fierce countenance [the Muslim antichrist] in chapter 8.

Then, in chapter 10.1, Jesus appears in a vision in which a thing was revealed unto Daniel. The "thing" revealed was much more detail concerning the latter days of the kings of Persia, the days of the king of fierce countenance. Basically, Jesus just added to the information given to Daniel by Gabriel in the preceding chapter.

Daniel had been praying for three weeks concerning these things Gabriel had told him but had received no answer. When Jesus did appear to answer his prayer, Jesus gave Daniel the reason for His being late (10.12-13). Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand [the vision of chapter 8], and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Jesus is not speaking of events on earth. He is speaking of the warfare in the heavenly realm where Paul tells us our true struggle (war) is in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The rulers of the darkness of this world are Lucifer and his fallen angels. Just as Jesus has His chief princes Michael and Gabriel commanding under Him, Lucifer also commands his own chief princes who have responsibility over certain geographical areas. These chief princes of Lucifer are very powerful angelic beings: the chief prince of Persia withstood Jesus for three weeks in 10.13 until Jesus' chief prince Michael came to help Him. In verse 20, Jesus informs Daniel that he is returning (to the heavens) to fight with the chief prince of Persia and the chief prince of Grecia after He makes Daniel understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Ezekiel tells of another chief prince of Lucifer. In Ezekiel 38.3, the correct interpretation is the chief prince of "Rosh", not "Meshech and Tubal." The chief prince of Rosh is Lucifer's commander over the territories of Gog, the ally of the Muslim antichrist who comes from the uttermost parts of the north.

When it is time for the final seven years of the age to begin, Daniel 12.1 tells us that Jesus' chief prince Michael will stand aside and let Lucifer and his angels have at planet Earth. This will be the tribulation in which the Muslim antichrist is given full reign.

If the antichrist was to come from Rome, don't you think there would be a chief prince of Rome? The absence of any such character in the Bible is one more reason I believe the antichrist comes from the Greek empire territories just as Jesus says in Daniel 10-12.

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Updated 4-24-01