Pro and Con 766

Posted 6-18-01

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Jesus told us to be ready against the Third day! Please read I Believe that the rapture may be just days away. War appears to be very near in the middle east. I think we are closer to the rapture then people think.
Jarring Notes in Israel’s National Unity Government
17 June: A proposal by the UN Secretary Kofi Annan to meet Yasser Arafat and Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres – together – provoked a clash between Peres and prime minister Ariel Sharon at today’s cabinet meeting....

Reversion to the Oslo accords may have happened by default, but it is nonetheless a radical turnabout compared with the sentiments expressed in Washington in March and April, when the President of France and the German Chancellor were told that for the Bush administration Arafat is a dead man. Shimon Peres, until now no favorite of the US administration, is seizing this as his opening and aiming for a return to the Peres-Arafat duo of Oslo 1993. His clash with Sharon was the foreign minister’s signal to Washington that if an Israeli peace diplomat is required, the Americans need look no further.

But Peres is canny enough to keep his powder dry until the moment comes for his do or die duel with Sharon. For the moment, US policy is in a state of flux, Sharon keeps Arafat grounded in Ramallah and the ceasefire is far from solid enough to start counting the six-week prologue to negotiations....

According to the Palestinian interpretation, there is no truce because of Israeli violations. Therefore it is not clear when the six-week period should start....

Peres is arming himself for the end of that period, when he expects the Mitchell recommendations to come into force, with attendant confidence-building measures, interim agreements, third withdrawal and final-status negotiations. He has gone back to his old slogans, such as: terrorism must be fought with the weapons of diplomacy...

Peres...sees here an unstated reversion to the Clinton administration’s Middle East peace strategy that hinged on the 1993 Oslo Framework Accords....

But Peres is canny enough to keep his powder dry until the moment comes for his do or die duel with Sharon....

My reply

Dan. 5:28 says, "PERES; Thy kingdom is divided." Keeps me wondering.

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Re: Colorful Clouds of Carina
go to:
The Astronomy Picture of the Day for today, has the above caption, and is a dramatic picture of the Carina Nebula. As I studied this picture, I noticed a luminous, light area on the left side, contrasting with the red orange of the rest. As I gazed on this luminous area, a figure appeared, robed in white, the face uplifted with the mouth open, as if making an announcement. It is quite extraordinary.

We had a rainstorm here yesterday afternoon. Just before sunset, there was a beautiful rainbow, with a double bow on the left side. It began almost due east and ended almost due south. Best wishes to you and family. I am looking forward to the day that we will meet face to face, in our spiritual bodies. Looking up, watching, and praying always to be accounted worthy. Come Lord Jesus. With love

My reply

Thanks. I can't see the angel very good. That bright part looks more like Christ on the cross to me. What struck me was the side view of the face of a lion cub looking to the right at a woman's face. Her hair could be braided and wound around her head. She is looking left. The lion's face is just to the right of the brightest area and connected to it. Between them is a wierd face with little horns. I cropped the picture below to zero in on the faces I see.

These are in Carina, the keel of the ship Argo (meaning company of travelers). Remember that the ship Argo has a lion's head on the prow above and a representation of Christ's face below just above the water line.

Thanks for telling me about the rainbow, God's reminder of his covenant. Gen. 9:13 says, "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." That's neat when you think of the Rapture being as in the days of Noah. I am looking up, watching, and praying always to be accounted worthy too. See you then. Agape

PS: I went to Your Sky and thought these were interesting:
I set it for Jerusalem. On June 20, 2001, at 3:00 UTC, the Moon is hiding Saturn in Taurus. Astronomer's call this an occultation. Others might call it a Saturnian eclipse. Close by, the Sun and Jupiter are kissing. Jupiter and Mercury are kissing too.

On June 20, 2001, at 11:45 UTC, the Sun, Jupiter and Mercury are overlapping each other. The Moon seems to be touching Mercury on the left and Saturn on the right. In other words, Saturn has just emerged from behind the Moon.

On June 21, 2001, the Summer Solstice, at 12:00 UTC, the New Moon is eclipsing the Sun in Gemini and a bit of Jupiter to boot. Mercury and Jupiter are overlapping. Saturn is in Taurus.

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I checked a number of the genealogies that were given in jubilees plus years and weeks backwards to confirm the jubilee period. Without exception THE JUBILEE PERIOD WORKED OUT TO 49 YEARS. Agape

My reply

I appreciate your checking. So many people try to make the Jubilee Cycle 50 years, because the Jubilee is kept in the 50th year. When I was doing all my research in BIOLA's library, lots of authors seemed to go for 50 years. Yet, the ones that set forth convincing reasons believed the Jubilee Cycle was a 49-year cycle with the Jubilee announced on the Day of Atonement in the 49th year. The Jubilee Year then began the following Nisan 1, the 1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year. Agape

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Re: new moon
is there any scripture to backup the rapture to perhaps coincide with a new moon? a new moon occurs on june 21st according to one of your pro and con. thanks.

My reply

This year, 5761, is a Sabbatic Year. The new moon is June 21. Here are some scriptures mentioning the "new moon," and sabbath with some ways the Raptures might tie in. These are just food for thought. See what you think.

Col. 2:16,17: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the NEW MOON, or of THE SABBATH DAYS: Which ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the BODY IS OF CHRIST."

Things to come for the Body of Christ could refer to the Pre-Trib Rapture as the new moon and the Pre-Wrath Rapture as the "sabbatismos (Heb. 4:9)," the "rest," the 7th millennium, begins. The 1st Rapture seems to be one foot of the Body of Christ and the 2nd Rapture the other foot.

I Sam. 20:5,18: "David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the NEW MOON, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field (i.e., the world, Mt. 13:38) unto the THIRD DAY AT EVEN....Jonathan said to David, To morrow is the NEW MOON: and thou shalt be missed, because THY SEAT SHALL BE EMPTY."

David will be in the group at the 1st Rapture, for "they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:40). There is that 3rd day again. It keeps cropping up. It could mean in the 3rd year, as in the parable of the barren fig tree of Lu. 13:6-9. There, Christ only speaks in the 3rd year, saying, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree (Israel), and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?" 1998 was the 480th year in the Modern Parallels. I thought it would be the Rapture since the 483rd year seemed to fit the beginning of the Tribulation and the 490th the Second Advent. 1998 wasn't the Rapture, but it may have been the first of the years in the parable of the barren fig tree. 1998 + 3 = 2001. If the 1st Rapture were to take place on the new moon of June 21, 2001, and the 2300-day shortened Tribulation begin Dec. 20, 2001, they would both be in the 483rd Jewish Sacred Year that began Nisan 1, 5761.

Isa. 66:23: "it shall come to pass, that FROM ONE NEW MOON (Rapture 1, Sivan 30, 5761?) TO ANOTHER (Rapture 2 on Tishri 1, 5768), and FROM ONE SABBATH (Sabbatic Year 5761) TO ANOTHER (Sabbatic Year 5768), shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

Eze. 46:1: "THE GATE OF THE INNER COURT that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but ON THE SABBATH IT SHALL BE OPENED, AND IN THE DAY OF THE NEW MOON IT SHALL BE OPENED."

Both June 21 and Tishri 1, 5768 are new moons. The door set before the Philadelphians could open on the new moon. The Israelites were to blow the trumpet in their new moons, beginning of months. June 22 is Tamuz 1.

Let me know if you can see anything here that I have missed. Agape

From 5doves site
Stephen Martin (16 June) "Why the rapture is not June 21st"

As I have written before in the past, there is one aspect of the Rapture event that is not taken into consideration by most watchers. Dates come and go with much adherance and excitement yet consideration is not given to the "raising of the dead". The dead are raised "first" and then is the catching away. The only pattern we have for the dead raising and and the ascension is in the Gospels. The dead was raised and remained on earth,"changed" for 40 days being seen of many. Any rapture projection must be built on the resurrection and new life. This is one reason I believe it is in the spring. But to my way of thinking, not this spring for I have heard of no reports of saints seeing the dead amongst us or saints being changed.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The "change" then we are "caught up together". Regards

My reply

> > The dead was raised and remained on earth,"changed" for 40 days being seen of many.

I think the saints came out of "the graves after Jesus' resurrection and were taken to Heaven that same day, not 40 days later. Mt. 27:50-53 says, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." "Of the Feast of Firstfruits, Resurrection Day, John 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Later that same day, after his return from Heaven, he could be touched.

When Jesus took those saints that came out of their graves to Heaven on Resurrection Day, he also took all the saints that were in Paradise to Heaven. Eph. 4:8-10 says, "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended."

> > The dead are raised "first" and then is the catching away.

That's true, but since the dead came out of their graves and were taken to Heaven that same day, I think the dead will come out of their graves and be caught away on the same day as the Rapture of the living saints.

> > For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is nothing here to show that there is gap between the dead saints getting their resurrection bodies and our rising up together with them. It can happen in one day.

> > Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I Thess. 4:13-18 is when the Lord sounds the trumpet the first time. It represents the 1st Rapture. I Cor. 15:51,52 is when the Lord sounds the trumpet the last time. It represents the 2nd Rapture.

I think Isa. 18:3-6 represents the first trump of God, the Pre-Trib Rapture. It says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (nations, i.e., the OWG); and WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, HEAR YE. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my REST, and I will consider (nabat, see, look at) in my dwelling place (Heaven) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of HARVEST. For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches (those foolish Laodicean virgins with no fruit). They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains (nations), and to the beasts of the earth (the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13): and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them." This seems reasonable if the Tribulation starts on Dec. 20, 2001, 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) before the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008). Winter starts Dec. 21.

Zech. 9:14,15 is talking about the Rapture of the Tribulation saints, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It says, "the LORD shall be seen over them (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f), and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and THE LORD GOD SHALL BLOW THE TRUMPET, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. The LORD of hosts shall defend them (Israel); and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones" (the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10).

Nu. 10:1-4 says, the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., at the last trump), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet (first trump), then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (elders, Rev. 4:4), shall gather themselves unto thee."

The reason both trumpets sound at the last trump is because those saints taken to Heaven at the first trump are gathered to the general assembly from one end of heaven to the other (Mt. 24:31). The Tribulation saints are gathered from the Earth at that time too. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

> > The "change" then we are "caught up together".

It looks like we are all changed together when assembled in Heaven from one end of heaven to the other, and from one end of the Earth to the other, at the last trump. This mortal must put on immortality. Agape

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Re: date setters
Hope all is well with you and family.

I want to write this in defense of date-setters.

Whenever a date is set, proof must be supplied. I compare that proof -- which can be either edifying or misplaced -- against my own study of the Word. So proof requires study of the WORD.

Those of you criticizing date-setters, when do you study the Word and how important is it to you?

Secondly, date-setter are usually eager to share their findings with others. Why? Because they want followers? Want to sell books and make money? Keep in mind the seller first pays for the printing of the books. And those who buy the books have their own reasons for the purchase. The buyer is willing to pay for having the proofs of the date-setter in their own hands.

Those of you criticizing date-setters, where are your books? And if you have them, then are you just raking in the money too?

Thirdly, date-setters know that when THAT TIME comes, the world as we know it, ENDS. No investments to manage; no retirement; no seeing the children grow up, get an education, get married, and have grandchildren. No sport events; no entertainment industry; no new homes or vehicles. I recall a story our LORD told of a great banquet being prepared. Some on the guest list had more important things to do than to attend the King's banquet. The date-setters seek the face-to-face encounter with Mankind's Kinsman Redeemer. They are ready and eager.

Are those of you criticizing the date-setters just as ready and eager for that meeting?

So till the LORD calls, date-setters please continue finding new facets in the Word, as it were on a diamond. Though your application or interpretation might not be correct, it comes from study of the WORD of GOD, which is what the LORD wants us to be doing. And you critics, notice that is DOING, not DONE!

And date-setters, thanks for suggesting that the New Moon this June could be the date. It made us take a look at those things taught by a New Moon! Wow! Shalom.

My reply

We are fine. Dave got Ed one of those 4 footed canes for Father's Day. That should steady him somewhat.

Thanks for the unexpected support. I can't stop studying Scripture. Once the Bible got hold of me, it wouldn't let go. There is so much more there than one person can dig out in a lifetime that it keeps me digging. Shalom and agape

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Re: Thanks!
I have good news, Jeremy gave his life to the Lord this morning!

He said yesterday that he feared he would kill hisself and he was afraid he would go to hell. He got up this morning without me waking him and went to church with my sister and her husband.

Praise the Lord! I'm so glad the Lord is still a forgiving God.

Pray for me that I might say the right thing to Johnny so he will start thinking of his soul.

Again, thank you for your prayers. And also for all your teaching.

I pray all is well with your family, husband, son, daughter and grandchildren, grant-grandchild. (I think I got them all!) Your Sister (in Christ)

My reply

Wonderful! That's the best kind of news. All the angels in Heaven are rejoicing with us. Thank you Lord for answering our prayers. I have prayed for him for a long time, and I know you have. I will continue to pray for you and yours.

Thanks for your kind words. As far as I know, our extended family is ok. We skipped the last get-together because of Ed's TIA, but he's all right now. Agape

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I haven't written you in a while, but I don't miss a single P&C. I wanted to forward this email version of Lampholder Newsletter. It has interesting information about June 21st as well as other info about Mars.

My reply

> Re: JUNE 21, 2001, A BAD OMEN FOR THE WORLD? The Lampholder Newsletter, June 10, 2001 Edition, Shirley Ann Miller, Sr. Ed -

Thanks for the FWD. It is interesting to read, but there are some things in it that I disagree with. However, I did learn some things from it, so I am better off for having read it.

> > Isaiah 63:1-6: Who [is this that] cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [who?] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore [he is] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury

This is talking about the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 14:18-20). I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture is that day (Sept. 13, 2007, the Feast of Trumpets), but not the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > June 21 - Earth, Mars, Sun in alignment
> > June 21 - Solar Eclipse 0° CANCER at 5:58 am
> > June 21 - Summer Solstice
> > June 21 - New Moon

If "Your Sky" ( is accurate, the Total Solar Eclipse will take place in Gemini near the star Eta Geminorum, a bright semi-regular variable. I printed the diagram and went back there to check it again. It still pictures it in Gemini. The other things listed above seem right.

In Gemini, the star Pollux is in the head of the Bridegroom (Christ). Castor is in the head of the Bride (of Christ). It is neat that Castor is a 6-star system. Six is the number of man, created on the 6th day and raptured after 6000 years have gone by since man began to be tried being mortal and knowing both good and evil.

> > Red light in the night sky. Good view of Mars as it pulls within 42 million miles of Earth

This is correct and an interesting addition to what we already knew. I went to this URL.
The article was by David Perlman, Chronicle Science Ed
"The planet Mars is blazing in the night sky this month as its path in the solar system carries it closer to Earth than at any time in the past 13 years - - only 42 million miles away.

"With its brilliant red color shining as brightly as any star, it should be visible clearly -- when fog or clouds don't interfere -- well after sunset above the southeastern horizon, astronomers say....

"Mars will make its closest approach since 1988 on June 21, when it will be 42 million miles away. It will come even closer to Earth in another two years -- on August 28, 2003, when it will be only 34.7 million miles away....

"The planet's path right now is approaching a point in the sky where it lies on the opposite side of the Earth from the sun, what astronomers term "opposition." Thus, instead of appearing to rise and set the way most planets usually do, IT WILL REMAIN VISIBLE FROM EARTH ALL NIGHT LONG."

That last sentence told me something I didn't know. I also checked this URL:
Planetary Systems Branch - Code 693 - NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland 20771 USA

It said, "A number of the brightest winter stars may also be visible during totality. Capella (m=+0.08) is 24° north of the Sun while CASTOR (m=+1.94) and POLLUX (m=+1.14) stand 22° and 24° TO THE EAST. Procyon (m=+0.38) and Sirius (m=-1.46) are located 30° and 42° to the southeast, respectively. Betelgeuse (m=+0.5v) and Rigel (m=+0.12) are south at 16° and 34°, while
ALDEBARAN (m=+0.85) is 21° TO THE WEST. Finally, Canopus (m=-0.72) lies high in the sky 76° due south."

Castor and Pollux are in Gemini. Cancer is the next sign AFTER Gemini. There doesn't seem to be any way that the eclipse could be in Cancer, as stated in this Lampholder Newsletter. The eclipse will be just about centered between Pollux (in Gemini) and Aldebaran (in Taurus).

Later: At one of these URLs, I made a note that at totality, Jupiter will be 5 degrees west of the Sun, Mercury will be 8.6 degrees west of the Sun. Saturn will be near Aldebaran at 22.6 degrees west of the Sun. Venus will be 45.3 degrees west of the Sun.

Note: Aldebaran is the eye of Taurus, the white bull reem (rimu, an untameable, strong extinct ox). The brightest star is Al Debaran, the leader or governor. The name for Taurus in Hebrew is Shur, the bull coming. It represents Christ as the mighty one who is coming. The Pleiades (Heb. Chima, the accumulation) in Taurus were associated with Noah's Flood. Therefore, the symbol of Taurus is a boat on top of a flooded world. The Hyades (the congregated) is a cluster of stars in an eye of Taurus. The Pleiades and Hyades accumulations may stand for the raptured ones. Since the Rapture is as the days of Noah, it seems to tie in with Saturn being in Taurus. One of the horns is touching the club under the feet of the Bride and Bridegroom in Gemini, showing a connection. The other horn is touching the heel of Auriga, who represents Christ as the good shepherd whose heel was bruised. We will find out soon. BTW Saturn was in Taurus in BC 5 and will be in conjuction with Regulus, the king star in Leo on both Sept. 13, 2007 and Apr. 6, 2008 (Nisan 1, 5768). I think Christ will be crowned in Heaven on Sept. 13, 2007 and arrive on Earth on Apr. 6, 2008.

Below is interesting information from the Lampholder Newsletter. I hadn't thought about this.

> >It has been at least 13 years since Mars was in a similar"oppositional" relationship where the Earth is seen in a straight alignment between the Sun and Mars. For best observation, this near approach brings Mars low on the horizon residing in between the constellations of Scorpius and Sagittarius (near the bright star Antares, the "rival of Mars...This unusual alignment begins on June 13th, but will be the closest on June 21st-22nd. The June 21st opposition of Mars and Earth is just the forerunner to an even more spectacular 2003 alignment.
> > During August of 2003, Mars will be closer to Earth than it has been in approximately 5,989-6,000 years This may have a very prophetic significance in relationship to time-patterns in history....
> > In the Talmud, a solar eclipse is considered "a bad omen for the [entire] world" (Sukkah 29a).
> > G-d reveals to Earth, His calendar of cycles and time-patterns. This is as a great, giant calendar and clock, but NOT, as we believe, revealed in the Holy Scriptures an example of the "gospel in the stars" which objectifies G-d. > > He is the Master of His Creation, not the object. Here is where Believers must discern the difference and where many have been caught up in an ancient form of mythology (in the Gospel in the Stars), mainly through lack of understanding. And according to cycles and time-periods, if June 21st is a bad omen for the world, then, as far as the world-wide scale of events, most everything that happens during this time-period will be on a wide-range, massive scale of tragedy.

I think God directed the prophet Enoch to draw the picture book of God's gospel in the stars before man had the written scriptures. According to Josephus, Seth and Enoch are supposed to have worked on the drawings. To me, these drawings did tell the gospel story to those who might not have been able to read.

As you know, I don't expect the massive tragedy to fall on this June 21. I expect it on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. Agape

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Mars Set To Dazzle
On Tuesday (June 19), Mars is at its brightest. It is also nearly at its closest approach to Earth (June 21). Technically, the Red Planet is in opposition. This means the Earth lies directly between the Sun and Mars. You should find it due south at local midnight and in the best observation position for many years - certainly since 1988...Mars and the Earth are approaching each other. The pair are closest together on 21 - 22 June when they will be 67 million kilometres apart (41 million miles). BBC

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