Pro and Con 768

Posted 6-23-01

Continuing Mid East Preparedness for Iraqi Attack
US Secretary Powell Due in Mid East Next Week – After Sharon Visit to White House Tuesday
http://www.debka.com/
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Gulf troops on high alert
http://msnbc.com/news/591020.asp

Excerpts from LTR on 5doves site plus my answers

Faithful (20 June. "Wise and Foolish Virgins"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2001/faithful620-1.htm

> > I’m having trouble with the parable of the five wise and foolish virgins also, I always thought they were Christians, but I wonder about that.

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus spoke of the Pre-Trib Rapture when he said, "as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt. 24:37). There was no war, no nuclear suitcases exploding and no fire and brimstone falling from the heavens. Rain fell from the heavens.

Job 37:6 says, "he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the GREAT RAIN OF HIS STRENGTH." The great rain of Noah's day represented the Lord's coming as the great rain of God's strength.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints is different. Jesus said that it is as the days of Lot. The "same day that Lot went out of Sodom it RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:29).

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place on the same day as the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17; 7:14), but before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 impact Earth, raining fire and brimstone from heaven upon Gog's army that is attacking Israel.

In Mt. 24:37 through 51, Jesus was talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture. Verse 37 says, "the coming of the Son of Man." Verse 39 says, "the coming of the Son of man." Verse 42 says, "your Lord doth come." Verse 44 says, "be ye also READY: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

In verses 45-51, Jesus introduces the "FAITHFUL AND WISE SERVANT" (i.e., the wise virgin) and the "EVIL SERVANT" (i.e., the foolish virgin). The wise shall be made "ruler over all his goods." The evil servant says, "MY LORD delayeth his coming," proving that he too is a believer. Yet, the evil servant of the Lord is cut off at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Verse 51 says, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

This is set forth in Luke 12:46 too. After Jesus introduced the "wise steward: and the unwise "servant," he said, "The lord of that servant (the unwise virgin) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

The same thing is told in the parable of the wedding feast in Mt. 22. "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment (white robe of righteousness, Rev. 19:8). That man was cast outside the door (i.e., left behind when the Philadelphian wise virgins go through the "open door," Rev. 3:8). There "shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. fOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN" (Mt. 22:13,14). After the first Rapture, "they that ARE with him (Christ) ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

The ones that are cut off weep and gnash their teeth. The prize of the Pre-Trib Rapture was within their grasp, but they became castaways. In I Cor. 9:27, Paul said, "that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." We need to "press toward the mark for the prize (the Pre-Trib Rapture) of the HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS" (Phil. 3:14).

Remember that there were no divisions into chapters and verses in the original scriptures. In Matthew, right after Jesus said, "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," he said, "Then (tote, at the same time) shall the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BE LIKENED UNTO TEN VIRGINS" (Mt. 25:1). All 10 are part of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN just as the wise and evil servants are. Mt. 25:10, like 24:44, mentions "they that were READY. The wise are ready, the foolish are not ready, but they are both servants.

"Tote" is also used in v. 7, when the cry in heard that the bridegroom is coming, "Then (tote, at the same time) all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps."

> > In Mt. 25:12 Jesus says, God doesn’t know them. If they were Christians who just weren’t quite pure enough, God would still know them. The fact that God doesn’t know them has to mean they are not Christians. Any thoughts?

They are still Christians. The word translated "know" is "eido, know or be aware, look on, perceive, see. Figuratively, in the dark night, the bridegroom could not see them, because their lamps were going out, sputtering, not burning brightly. We must keep our lamps burning brightly by having an extra supply of the oil of the Holy Spirit in our vessels (bodies). We should be on intimate terms with the Lord, talking to him, asking for his guidance, calling on him in times of distress and thanking him when things straighten out again. We should consciously walk humbly with our God, making him part of every facet of our lives.

> > Since This parable in Mat. 25 has been weighing on my mind and has been a source of confusion for me I’m starting here. Will I find pre-trib in the Bible? Wouldn’t that be great! In Christ, Marlene

There is Pre-Trib for the wise virgins and Pre-Wrath for the foolish virgins. The wise virgins are the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are in Heaven before the first seal is broken in chapter 6. The Tribulation saints are those "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, an tongues" in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. They are caught up between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8).

Those of the first Rapture are crowned (Rev. 3:11) and made "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10. Those of the second Rapture "are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15).

After the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, Jesus is still talking about his wise and foolish servants. He ends with "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH" (Mt. 25:30), just as the man without a wedding garment is cast outside the door, where there is "WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH" (Mt. 22:13). We don't want to be on the wrong side of that door.

Incoming email

Re: virgins
Blessings to you! I would be interested in your thoughts on this version of the 5 Wise/5 Foolish Virgins as commented on by William MacDonald. God Bless.
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Math.25:1-12.
The first word ,Then, referring back to chapter 24, clearly places this parable in the time preceding and during the King's return to earth. Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven at that time to ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were wise and had oil for their lamps; the others had none. While waiting, all fell asleep.

The five wise virgins represent true disciples of Christ in the Tribulation. The lamps speak of profession, and oil is generally acknowledged to be a type of the Holy Spirit. The foolish virgins represent those who profess to hold the Messianic hope but who have never been converted and thus do not have the Holy Spirit. The bridegroom is Christ, the King; His delay symbolizes the period between His two Advents. The fact that all ten virgins slept shows that outwardly there was not much to differentiate them.

At midnight the announcement rang out that the bridegroom was coming. In the previous chapter we learned that His arrival will be heralded by awesome signs.

The virgins arose and trimmed their lamps - all wanted to appear ready. The foolish ones, lacking oil, asked the other for some. but were sent to buy some. The wise ones' refusal seems selfish, but in the spiritual realm, no one can dispense the Spirit to another. Of course, the Holy Spirit cannot be purchased, but the Bible does use the literary figure of buying salvation without money and without price.

While they were gone the bridegroom came. The Syriac and Vulgate versions say that he came with his bride. This fits the prophetic picture perfectly. The Lord Jesus will return from the wedding with His bride, the church(1 Thess. 3:13). (The wedding takes place in heaven (Eph. 5:27) after the Rapture). The faithful remnant of Tribulation saints will go in with Him to the marriage feast. The marriage feast is a fitting designation of the joy and blessing of Christ's earthly kingdom. The wise virgins went in with him to the wedding (or wedding feast, JND), and the door was closed. It was too late for anyone else to get into the kingdom. When the other virgins came seeking admittance, the bridegroom disavowed knowing them - a clear proof that they had never been born again.

My reply

> > The first word ,Then, referring back to chapter 24, clearly places this parable in the time preceding and during the King's return to earth.

William MacDonald seems to think this "return to earth" is the Second Advent, when we all return with Christ. I think it is when Christ comes for us at the Pre-Trib Rapture. "Then" is the Greek "tote," meaning at the same time. It is definitely tied to chapter 24, but Mt. 24:37-51 is about the Pre-Trib Rapture. Verse 37 says it will be as the days of Noah. Verse 51 tells what will happen to the evil servant, i.e., the foolish virgin. The evil servant says in his heart, "MY LORD delayeth his coming" (v. 48). He is a believer.

We are being tested now to see who is "a faithful and WISE servant" and who is an "evil servant." The evil servant is a foolish servant, a foolish virgin. Jesus also deals with this subject in Luke 12:42-46. He says, "the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant (a believer) say in his heart, MY LORD delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant (not wise, but foolish) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him asunder, or off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

The unwise servant can't be an unbeliever. He is chastised by having to go through the shortened Tribulation with the unbelievers. The unwise servant is chastised just like the Laodiceans. Rev. 3:19 says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is like the man in Mt. 22 that is cast outside the door at the wedding feast, because he didn't have on a wedding garment. There "shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen" (Mt. 22:13,14).

> > The five wise virgins represent true disciples of Christ in the Tribulation.

I think all 10 virgins are believers waiting for the Pre-Trib Rapture to take place. In the parable of the 10 virgins in Mt. 25, BOTH wise and foolish hear the midnight cry, "Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him," because both are believers. In the KJV, verse 8 says, "the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." The word "sbennumi," means to suppress. Their lamps are sputtering, going out, but not out yet. Young's Literal version has "the foolish said to the prudent, Give us of your oil, because our lamps ARE GOING OUT." Adding oil to a lamp that has gone out doesn't relight the lamp, but adding oil to a lamp that is going out will keep it burning.

> > While they were gone the bridegroom came. The Syriac and Vulgate versions say that he came with his bride. This fits the prophetic picture perfectly. The Lord Jesus will return from the wedding with His bride, the church(1 Thess. 3:13). (The wedding takes place in heaven (Eph. 5:27) after the Rapture). The faithful remnant of Tribulation saints will go in with Him to the marriage feast. The marriage feast is a fitting designation of the joy and blessing of Christ's earthly kingdom. The wise virgins went in with him to the wedding (or wedding feast, JND), and the door was closed. It was too late for anyone else to get into the kingdom. When the other virgins came seeking admittance, the bridegroom disavowed knowing them - a clear proof that they had never been born again.

I think the foolish virgins are believers and that this coming is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Marriage of the Lamb is in Heaven after both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures have taken place. The 144,000 are also wise virgins, and therefore part of the Bride of Christ (Rev. 14:3-5).

I have the Lamsa Bible. In the introduction, it says, "George M. Lamsa, B.A., F.R.S.A., the translator of this work is uniquely fitted for the task to which he has devoted the major part of his life. He is an Assyrian and a native of ancient Biblical lands, where he lived until World War I. Until that time, isolated from the rest of Christendom, his people retained Biblical customs and Semitic culture which had perished everywhere else. This background, together with his knowledge of the Aramaic (Syriac) language has enabled him to recover much of the meaning that has been lost in other translations." This is how he translates Mt. 25:10: "And while they went to buy, the BRIDEGROOM CAME; and those who were READY entered with him into the BANQUETING HOUSE, and the door was locked."

Luke 12:35,36 (Lamsa) says, "Let your girdle be fastened on your loins, and your LAMPS LIGHTED. And be like men who expect their master when he will return FROM THE WEDDING HOUSE; so that when he comes and knocks, they will immediately open the door for him." Instead of returning "from the wedding" (KJV), he is returning from the place where the wedding will take place, i.e., from Heaven. Having our lamps lighted ties this in with the parable of the 10 virgins. In verse 40, Lamsa said, "Therefore, you also be READY." That too ties in.

Instead of the Tribulation saints living in the "earthly kingdom," I think they are part of the heavenly group. Agape

More info on Lu. 12:35,36 from 5doves site

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2001/jovial620.htm
Jovial (20 June)
"Luke 12:35-36 and *FROM* the [House of] the Wedding Feast"

The Textus Receptus of Luke 12:35-36 says "from the wedding feast", as David pointed out. someone else pointed out how "from" can also mean "on", and I've said in the past to avoid hanging a doctrine on grammar. Some manuscripts say "from the HOUSE OF the Wedding Feast", which might refer to the building of the house they'd live in AFTER the wedding feast. The "House of" is not in all manuscripts and not in the Textus Receptus, but the Textus Receptus that the KJV translation was based on was simply compiled by a "majority rule" approach. So I would say this verse cannot be used to prove one thing or another. Shalom, Joe

My reply

I can't dismiss any scripture. In my head, they all have to be considered. II Tim. 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Surely there is a way to understand Luke 12:35,36.

In v. 2, Jesus said, "there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known." That's encouraging. In verses 32-34, Jesus said to the group that would inherit the heavenly kingdom, "Fear not, LITTLE FLOCK (symbolically, the sheep in the Lesser Sheepfold in the sky); for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure IN THE HEAVENS that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

In v. 35, Jesus is still talking to the "LITTLE FLOCK" (i.e., the Bride of Christ) that will inherit the kingdom "IN THE HEAVENS." He said, "Let YOUR (the LITTLE FLOCK'S) loins be girded about, and your LIGHTS (lamps) burning." This ties it in to the 10 virgins who had their lamps burning.

Continuing in v. 36, Jesus said, "And YE (the LITTLE FLOCK) yourselves like unto men (i.e., the 10 virgins) that wait for THEIR LORD (i.e., the 10 virgins are saved), when he will return FROM THE WEDDING; that when he cometh (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Continuing in Luke 12:35-47, Jesus said, "Blessed are those SERVANTS, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch (9 PM to midnight), or come in the third watch (midnight to 3 AM), and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house (as in Mt. 24:43) had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? And the Lord said, Who then is that FAITHFUL AND WISE STEWARD, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming (this is a foolish virgin); and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS. And that servant (a believer), which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." As you can see, Luke 12:35-47 goes hand in glove with Mt. 24:43-51. The WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH also ties these in with Mt. 22:13,14).

Remember that there were no chapter divisions in the original. Mt. 25:1 follows Mt. 24:51 with "THEN (tote, at the same time, i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture) shall the kingdom of HEAVEN be likened unto ten virgins." As Lu. 12:46 and Mt. 24:51 said, some go with the Bridegroom, and some are cut off.

By comparing the 2 passages, we can see the time of Lu. 12:36 is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The KJV says, "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM THE WEDDING; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

If the Bride group is the one Christ is coming for, the wedding can't have already taken place. Let's see what some other translations say.

ASV: "when he shall return from the marriage feast" LITV: "when he returns from the feasts" YLT: "when he shall return out of the wedding feasts" Lamsa: "when he will return FROM THE WEDDING HOUSE; so that when he comes and knocks, they will immediately open the door for him."

I think the Lamsa translation gives us the best picture. Christ will return from Heaven, the place where the wedding feast will be held.

Mt. 22 shows us that one without a wedding garment will be cast outside the door that is open before the Philadelphians in Rev. 3:8. Mt. 22:10-14 (KJV) says, "gathered together all as many as they found, both bad (foolish virgins) and good (wise virgins): and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless (a Laodicean, who thought he had it made, but he lacked the oil of the Holy Spirit in his vessel with his lamp). Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. For many are called, but few are chosen." We need to be the chosen ones.

Incoming email

Re: Eclipse Noted as Sign of Jesus's Return by CNN!!
Proof that God has a sense of humor as He overrules CNN policies briefly:
I was watching the "Headline News" segment of the top of the hour stories on CNN today when a short piece came on about the total eclipse over Africa. Moving from the actual eclipse to a native African woman, CNN cameras caught her saying, "This is important. When Jesus hung on the cross, the world was darkened. Now the world is darkened and Jesus is returning!" God had His victory!

Strangely, in the next hour's Headline News...no mention was made of the eclipse, instead the druid and pagan rites of summer solstice were covered at Stonehenge...hmm

Jesus is returning and CNN won't be able to alter that fact! Agape

My reply

That's neat, and probably unexpected from the African woman. The Lord can speak through believers at will to spread his news throughout the world, and he will return right on schedule, no matter what. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Thanking GOD you and family are OK!
Wow! What a travel experience! So glad you all are OK! Shalom!!!!!!

My reply

It was not fun. Ed had lost his 4 lower gears (out of 8) up in the mountains. A vacuum line had come loose. His glasses had gotten broken, so were in his shirt pocket, so they slipped out and were lost when he slid under the truck to see what was the matter. He found that out later. I was driving the car in front of Ed in the truck. The 2-year old was with me, the 4-year old with Ed. I kept watching his lights in my rear-view mirror. The first thing that alerted Ed was his wheel going past him in the middle of the road, sailing along in his headlights as if something was driving it. I saw Ed's lights go at an angle and stopped. He ran to the car asking for the flashlight to go find his wheel. I ran back to the truck and pulled our sleeping child out. We waited in the car for half an hour before Ed came back with his wheel. The other wheel went crazy and into the ditch. It was only the first one to come off the right dual wheels that was so free wheeling. It is funny to think of it now, but not then. It went around the truck and up the highway ahead of him. Now, I think, do you suppose it was the Lord controlling that wheel so it would pass Ed on the driver's side and alert him to stop the truck in the nick of time? There is a good chance it was, because if he had gone one more foot, the truck would have turned over, and he couldn't have known that until later.

I told him that we had the car and our lives, to leave the truck and our furniture, and go on, but he had better sense. He got out in the highway and flagged down the first car he saw. God must have arranged that too, because he was a local that knew where to go to wake up the mechanic that had a railroad jack. We wouldn't have had a clue otherwise.

No matter what we faced, God saw us through it. Ed wouldn't drive that truck anymore after we got a house. First, it sat in front of his brother's house. Then it sat out in front of our house in the cul-de-sac until a gardner saw it and bought it. Ed wasn't about to try driving it in LA traffic to try to sell it. He never let the kids ride with him again, either. We bought a house in La Mirada, BEFORE BIOLA BUILT THEIR LA MIRADA CAMPUS. No one could convince me that that whole thing wasn't to get me near their wonderful Christian library. I was within bike-riding distance, and they would let you take out all the books you could carry, and that many the next day if you wanted them. It was wonderful. I could only say, "Thank you Lord." Agape

Incoming email

Ret: Rapture
May Jesus Bless you greatly for all you do for Him. The one writer in 766 referred to a dream about being raptured up in a star trek fashion. That has always been my explanation to ---- of what I though it would be like, but more importantly, I have always asked ---- to Biblically prove why the Rapture would have to happen for everyone at the exact second. Not to say that it won't, but what if in the Blessed Design Of Jehovah we cannot comprehend the way it shall be implemented? Have we been confined to Black Boxes for too long? ---- is always saying think outside of the lines. Yet I know that The Precepts are certain and that is where I get my strength and knowledge. I have always asked "why is it always taught that the rapture has to happen to everyone at one specific second in time?" I do think that the fact that there are so many missing people, already the devil is trying to copy what is about to happen and that is why Chandra Levy is not the only missing person in Washington,D.C. in the last few months. You can be sure that when the evil one starts a copy, that the real One (Jehovah and the Rapture) is about to take place. Christians be on ALERT...even now our Military is on High Alert in the Middle East,.....We as Christians should be READY! Praise the Lord Jesus! Have a Blessed Sabbath.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. In Rev., Jesus signed off with "Surely I come quickly." I just can't see him hanging around for a long time to pick up one here and one there over a long period of time. In the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 went with the Bridegroom before the 5 foolish virgins could get their oil and get back. I expect the Pre-Trib Rapture to take place in a hurry. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the Feast of Trumpets between 6 PM (Rev. 6:17) and noon (when the asteroids impact Earth, Zeph. 2:4,5). If that one happens quickly, it makes sense to me that the first Rapture would also happen quickly. Agape

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