Pro and Con 773

Posted 7-5-01

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Re: Love & blessings
My Dear Mrs.Agee, How are you & Ed doing?
You have meant so much to me this past year,,,WHOA you wil never know til we get to heaven,,how much You have taught me & encouraged ME & otheres in my extended family to "keep going"!!!!! you were heaven sent to me thru our mutual good friend Dr.Tex Armstrong,because of you & your hard work,YOU,have helped me bring in more people to the kingdom of our LORD!!!!! WOW Do you know hw many people you have blessed,taught the truth of the Word of God,&ministered to????? whoa im getting *goose bummps*,,,you are my * Hero*!!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart& soul,for all that you have for me & my extended family!!! A big *Kiss & Hugg*from me :o)

Mrs,Agee,I am a lil confused? I mean allot!!!!!
When is our Lord Jesus Coming for us????
I read today that you said to this Caps"fellow,that now y'all think it is going to be Pentecost 2004!!!!WHOA!!! I must have read it wrong,I hope?

Then a man asked you about the "10 Days of perscution"& the"7 Day Warning",in your last post, but I didnt get your answer to that!!! Could you please answer for me/us too?

Do you believe the rapture wil this month?this summer?this year? I am sadden it hasnt happen YET!!!!I am sure there are those people out there such as myself,that long for the day to escape this sick sin-filled world in which we live on ,& their hearts desire to be home,our real home!!AS I DO!!!!!

How much LONGER,do we all have to wait & suffer this world?

Mrs. Agee,I know you do not have the answers ,however I need your encouragement & counsel!!!! You the best on the WEB. I applaud your courage & hard diligent work!!!! I have sung your praises to others,& others have told me,that you got them started in all this too,your words affect so many, I don't believe,YOU KNOW, how much,or how many???? I know that Dr.Armstrong sends your messages to Hungary & Russia,he has them done in their languages,You have touched so many of us, I wish the Lord would let you know!!!! How one lil ole lady in California has affected and taught and inspired the whole world!!!!! WOW I am in tears,I know for a fact DEAR LADY, w/out YOU ,that I & others would be headed down the wrong path!!! YOU KNOW? I THANK GOD for you& ED,I know you are a team, one-spirit & all!!! Listen , i am a young woman,(former playboy playmate),that was headed for HELL!!!AND you came into my life to teach me & guide me,,, again you are mt hero!!! I know you are going thru hard times,,, but you tell Ed,that lil ole me,prays for him & you,everyday!!When you don't post,my spirit weeps,,I long for your posts everyday,recently you have not posted as much..I am sure others feel the same!!

Mam' you know that I haven't posted to you since last January,I don't ask questions,I read.listen & learn from your site & others on here.I was prompted to write today!!!I felt led to let you be aware,how IMPORTANT & NEEDED you are to me & my family!!!!I am quite sure,there are others out there as myself,but have never written!!!!Looky HERE,as my good friend Doc,always says,I can conceive how tough it is to do what you do,,this must be so stressful& pressure on you& Ed!!!BUT I want you to know ,that for me & my Family,WE APPRECIATE YOU & ED!!!WE LOVE Y'all!!!!

Oh,my dear sweet Mrs.Agee,you are one of kind,The Lord God has blessed me thru you& ED. I hope to see you & Ed soon & very soon. Love y'all

I love you,Mrs.Agee& Ed
:o) :o) :o)& :)from me...!!!
love,me, your friend & sister4life, your ----

My reply

We are ok. Thanks so much for all your kind words.

Congratulations for winning stars in your crown. That's great news. Your "keep going!!!!!" is exactly what we all must do. We have come this far and shouldn't lose the "prize" of being caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture when the race is almost over. We must show what we are made of, demonstrate the staying power we have because of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He said that he would never leave us. He is in us and walking with us every step of the way. Without him, we can do nothing, but with him, we can do everything that he requires of us. It's not like we are doing it all in our power. We are operating with his power assist.

I've heard on TV, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." In my head, that is for those without Christ. They have to tough it out all by themselves. For us, it's so different. When we are weak, we can ask for a boost to get us over that hill. There is a reason we have tribulations along the way. It worketh patience. Also, the Lord "comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God" (II Cor. 1:4). God's love flows through us to others. What we have gone through and weathered helps us understand what others may be going through.

Christ lived as a man so we couldn't say that he just didn't understand how it was to be a human being. We too have trials so those we are trying to help can't say that we just don't understand what they are going through.

< < When is our Lord Jesus Coming for us????

He is coming soon. Look at the news coming out of the Middle East. Things are inching up toward a climax. We are so lucky to be living in these exciting days watching prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes.

> > I read today that you said to this Caps" fellow,that now y'all think it is going to be Pentecost 2004!!!!WHOA!!! I must have read it wrong,I hope?

You did. I didn't say that, CAPS did. For myself, I am hoping the Rapture will be THIS year, 2001.

The Six-Day War fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. When Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, he didn't mince his words. In 30 AD, he told them, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous...Ye serpents, ye GENERATION of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily (Greek, amen, i.e., this is important) I say unto you, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION." They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD.

Things happened to Israel for examples to us upon whom the ends of the ages has come (I Cor. 10:11).

In Eze. 4:6, the LORD said to Ezekiel, "when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." Those 40 years were fulfilled from 30 AD to 70 AD. From Palm Sunday in 30 AD, when they refused Christ as king, to Av 10, 70 AD, when the temple proper was burned, was 40 years plus another 120 days. In our days, from June 7, 1967, when Israel regained the temple area, to the Feast of Trumpets on Sept. 13, 2007, is 40 years plus another 120 days. At that time, I think the millennial Day of the Lord will begin. That Jewish date is Tishri 1, 5768. Since there are 7 months to the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1, that year must be a Jewish Leap Year, and it is. I don't see how the Day of God's Wrath on the 1st day of the Millennium could take place later than that.

Subtracting 7 years of the Tribulation from 5768 is 5761. It ends this next September 18. The Great Tribulation, the last 3.5 years, is to be shortened for the elect's sake (Mt. 24:21,22), so there is some leeway at the beginning of the 7 years. I now think that there will be 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) from the beginning of the Tribulation to the second coming of Christ. Counting backward 2300 days from Nisan 1, 5768 is Dec. 20, 2001 (Teveth 5, 5762). I hope the Rapture will happen between now and next Dec. 20th.

It does not have to be on a feast day, but it seems more likely that it will be on a major feast day, maybe Sept. 18, 2001, the Feast of Trumpets. The "trump of God" of I Thess 4:16 will sound at the Rapture.

> > Then a man asked you about the "10 Days of perscution"& the"7 Day Warning",in your last post,,but I didnt get your answer to that!!!Could you please answer for me/us too?

These are things we wonder about as we watch for signs of the times. Rev. 2:10 mentions 10 days. It says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation (thlipsis, pressure, anguish, persecution, trouble) TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." It seems to me that the only way those people could be sure it would be only 10 days would be for the Rapture to happen in 10 days.

The 7 days is from Gen. 7:4. Noah knew 7 days before the day it started to rain. The LORD told him, "For yet SEVEN DAYS, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights." The Rapture is as the days of Noah, so we may get a 7-day notice of some sort. We might not, though, because Noah had to load the supplies and animals during those days.

We want to be able to discern the signs of the times. In Mt. 16:2,3, Jesus told the Pharisees, "When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but CAN YE NOT DISCERN THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES?"

They should have known from Dan. 9:25,26 the exact year that the Messiah would be "cut off (karath, killed)." Martin Anstey found an 82-year mistake in the era of the Persian Kings. BC 536 - 82 = BC 454. 483 years of Dan. 9:25 -BC 454 + 1 (because no zero year) = 30 AD. Agape

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Just wanted to say hello and hope you have a wonderful Fourth of July. Also I wanted to comment on the writer in 769 or 770 who listed all the American Presidents who have died and or been killed when they were elected in the year ending in 0: they should find a copy of the Money Masters Video. The Narrator was Bill Stihl. This will explain a-lot to this writer about the presidents deaths. Or read the Book Jeckyl (this may be mis-spelled) Island. Both of these resources would give this writer some more to think about. I highly recommend the Money Masters Video. It just puts all the puzzle pieces together. Of course the Bible does all of this without mans help. Just thought you should know. Keep the Faith Marilyn. This old world no longer has the same appeal does it? I'm looking heavenward and really Looking for my Redeemer! Love

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since Jesus was tested in the wilderness starting at age 30 and since He was the Last Adam, the 2ND Man, would it not seem an appropriate analogy that the first Adam was tested when he was also 30 years old -- and not age 40 ?

The prophecy of Hosea 6 re the 2 days are measured from the crucifixion. Reading the context of chapter 5 shows this is unmistakeable. Jesus came, was rejected at the crucifixion and "returned to His place" i.e. Heaven after the crucifixion and rejection. The context is very clear.

Israel is also called God's "son" even in the same book of Hosea (see ch. 11:1). Just AS Jesus was smitten on the cross--the language of Is. ch. 53--so likewise the NATION of Israel was also "smitten." How ? Remember that Jesus "smote" the fig tree, only a FEW days before the crucifixion. In Hosea 9:15-17 is the description of the coming of Jesus to the nation of Israel at the first coming.

Verse 15 " I will drive them out of my house..." --Jesus drove out the money changers.
Verse 16 "Ephraim (the nation of Israel) is SMITTEN, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit..."--Jesus cursed the fig tree using the same language.
Verse 17 "My God shall cast them away, because they did not hearken unto Him (Jesus), and they SHALL be wanderers among the nations." This happened in 70A.D.

In fact a careful reading of the book of Hosea indicates it is in effect Jesus addressing the nation of Israel at His coming in the flesh to them. The whole book is written from that perspective. There are many examples in the text.

Note ch. 7:10 .."And the Pride of Israel TESTIFIES TO HIS FACE..." This is Jesus , the Pride of Israel addressing the nation IN PERSON !

Not only was Jesus smitten , but also the nation of Israel. Look at Hosea 6:5...I have slain them by the words of my mouth..." Jesus said "Behold your house is left unto you desolate."

At the crucifixion Jesus' humanity , his veil , was torn and at the same time the veil of the Temple was also torn apart. The nation of Israel "died" spiritually and the sacrifices were no longer efficacious.

The Prophetic year of 360 days per year seems to be used in prophetical applications. The Seasons were adjusted based on the start of Nisan and the barley, as you pointed out. However, in some time prophecies the 360 day year is applied. The Church age did not start until Jesus was raised from the dead, because the Holy Spirit was not yet given.

Let's hope the 2 days of Hosea 6 are measured by 360 day years , because , if they are not, the 2nd coming would not be until 2030 or a few years either way.

There can be no doubt that the prophecy of Hosea 6:1-2 is referring to the time of the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus. In ch. 5:14 Jesus is speaking and says, "I , even I, will tear and go away(back to heaven)....verse15 Jesus says " I will go and RETURN to my place(heaven) TILL they(Israel) acknowledge their offense( the offense of the rejection and crucifixion) their affliction (the tribulation) they will seek me (Jesus).

Yes, Israel will eventually say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Jesus , while on earth even used those words saying "You will not see me henceforth UNTIL you say Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord !"

Although Jesus was rejected and crucified at the time of the crucifixion was the nation of Israel CURSED by the words of Jesus. That time definitely starts the 2 day prophecy of Hosea 6. Blessings. CAPS

My reply

> > since Jesus was tested in the wilderness starting at age 30 and since He was the Last Adam, the 2ND Man, would it not seem an appropriate analogy that the first Adam was tested when he was also 30 years old -- and not age 40?

Adam was probably created as if he was already 30 years old. He was not a babe in arms. He could talk and name the animals. He lived 930 years. Add the extra 30 and you get 960, just 40 years shy of one great 1000-year day. That seems to be the way God works, very logically.

About 1969, a draftsman was among the young people that came to our house to study the Bible with me. I had made separate charts for the three Ages and the Dispensations. He took them home one night to superimpose one upon the other. Next day, he said he stayed up until midnight, and there was no way they would fit together unless the Dispensation of Innocence was placed before the beginning of the Age of the Gentiles. I didn't believe him at first, but he was right.

I figured, as have many others, that the Dispensation of Conscience was 1616 years, the Dispensation of Human Government was 427 years, the Dispensation of Promise was 430 years, and the Dispensation of Law was 1,559 years. I knew the Dispensation of Law ended in 30 AD. Dan. 9:25's 483 years takes us back to 454 BC, as Martin Anstey recorded for the beginning of the 483 years in "The Romance of Bible Chronology." From there back to Adam, the Bible gives us the chronology.

If you make to scale and on clear acetate both the Bible Chronology Chart and the Chart of the Great Week of Time with the Dispensations and Ages marked, by superimposing one upon the other, you will find that the Dispensation of Innocence lasted 40 years. That is appropriate, because the number 40 means testing and probation and Jesus was tested 40 days.

In Mt. 23:26, Jesus told the Pharisees, "All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION." They did, 40 years later, in 70 AD. Eze. 4:6 foretold these 40 years. It says, "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." These 40 years run from 30 AD to 70 AD. Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness. The kings Saul, David and Solomon each ruled 40 years. So did Adam, who was also given dominion. Just as the house of Judah was tested 40 years, we are being tested 40 years (1967 + 40 = 2007). Things happened to them for examples to us, upon the ends of the ages have come.

> > The prophecy of Hosea 6 re the 2 days are measured from the crucifixion. Reading the context of chapter 5 shows this is unmistakeable. Jesus came, was rejected at the crucifixion and "returned to His place" i.e. Heaven after the crucifixion and rejection. The context is very clear.

Israel was not revived after 2000 years had gone by since the Crucifixion (30 AD + 2000 = 2030 AD). She wouldn't be in the land now if that was what was meant. Israel was REVIVED in 1948. That would be at least 82 years too soon (2030 - 1948 = 82).

BC 454, the first year of Cyrus, was the end of the 70 years of servitude. Those 70 years, figured by Jewish inclusive reckoning, started in BC 523. 2000 years - 523 + 1 (no zero yr) = 1478 AD. Therefore, INDEPENDENT ISRAEL was revived in 1948 AD within the 3rd millennium since she began the 70 years of servitude. Hosea 6:2 carefully says, "AFTER TWO DAYS will he revive us. It does not say that they would be revived in two days.

In Hos. 5:15, Christ said, "I WILL GO AND RETURN TO MY PLACE." It was a prophecy of a future time. In verse 14, Christ said, "I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and AS A YOUNG LION TO THE HOUSE OF JUDAH." That sure fits the young lion's face that appeared in the picture of the blood Moon over Jerusalem on 1-9-01 and in Carina, the keel of the ship Argo, lately.

> > The Church age did not start until Jesus was raised from the dead, because the Holy Spirit was not yet given.

The Holy Spirit was with king David. The Holy Spirit was with the prophets and with Jesus. The Spirit of Christ is the same as the Spirit of God. Rom. 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

This is oversimplified, but we could say that the Spirit of Christ was on Earth from Jesus' birth until the Ascension 40 days after the Resurrection. He returned after 10 days as the Comforter. John 16:7 says, "I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." Heb. 1:1,2 says, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en, in) his Son." II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Agape

From 5doves site; my interspersed comments are marked ***
"Dating part 4: The 360 day year" Jovial (3 July)

One fallacy about dating systems is the idea we should count years as 360 day intervals. A "year" is a revolution of the earth around the sun, not 360 days. Some people say this suggesting that the "Jewish calendar" has 30 day months, but there is no Jewish calendar that has 30 days months. The fixed Jewish calendar alternates between 29 and 30 day months to keep in line with the lunar cycles (presently 29.5 days, not 30).

***I agree that a year is one revolution of Earth around the Sun. The Jewish Talmudic Calendar has 6 types. The number of days vary--353, 354, 355, and in leap years, 383, 384, 385. None are 360-day years. The month of Adar II is added in leap years. In the LY, Adar has 30 days instead of the 29 it has in a non LY. There is one section of their calendar that is planned so they can count the days correctly. Therefore, from Nisan 1 to Tishri 1, the number of days in each month never vary. Nisan always has 30 days, Iyar 29, Sivan 30, Tamuz 29, Av 30, and Elul 29. There are always 177 days in this block. Tishri always has 30 days too. Cheshvan and Kislev alternate between 29 and 30 days each. All other months, except Adar in a LY, are constant in all types of years.

***Re: constructing the Jewish Talmudic Calendar The First New Moon is 0 days, 23 hours, 11 minutes, 06 parts. From this, by adding 300 cycles, the number of ordinary years over that, and the number of LY, we can calculate the New Moon of Tishri. There are a few rules to apply to that to determine the NYD. Once you have the NYD, Nisan 1 will be 177 days before that.

***In the Talmudic Calendar, the NYD is based on the NM of Tishri, except:
1. When the NM is on Wed., Fri., or Sun
2. When the NM is at noon or later
3. When the NM of ordinary YR occurs on Tue. at 11m 6p after 3:00 AM or later
4. When at the termination of LY, such NM occurs on Mon. at 32m 13p after 9 AM or later (this rarely applies)

Personally, I think that since Genesis chapter 1 says the heavenly bodies are there to mark times and seasons, that the moon marks months and the sun marks years. Thus if the Bible measures something in days or months we should go by lunar cycles (presently 29.5 days, not 30). If it goes by "years", we should measure it by revolutions around the sun - that is, the earth returning to the same point around the sun. This, not the calendar date, is what should reign supreme.

Now if a "prophetic year" is properly 360 days, then Passover, Shavuot, Yom Kippur, and other feasts would float through teh (the) year. sometimes being in Spring, sometimes in summer ,etc. So if we're going to calculate a 360 day year, then we should be calculating when Aviv is too.

God set things so the month of Aviv would always be in the spring, eliminating any "360 day" year usage when that does not agree with the solar cycles.

I talked at
about how up until the time of Hezekiah the earth had a 30 day month and a 360 day year and how God changed that and how God might change it back since the end-time prophecies equate 1260 days, 42 months and 3.5 years as the same, like it was when the earth was first created. Until the earth moves back to that rotation, it is silly to be looking for a 30 day month.

***I think the day was constant from Adam's day to this with 2 exceptions, Joshua's Long Day and the Sun returning 10 degrees on Hezekiah's "sundial" steps. I think the day the globe is turned upside down by the asteroid impacts will be Jesus' Long Day. The name Jesus would be Joshua in the OT.

But independent of that issue, remember that the scriptures equate 1,260 days with 42 months and a "times, time and half a time" not a "year, years and half a year". A "year", by a literal interpretation of Genesis chapter 1, would be a rotation of the earth around the sun (whether that be 360 days or 365+). While a "time" might simply refer to the way a "year" is measured and dated, rather than an actual rotation. Maybe that's why the Bible refers to it as a "time" instead of a "year". There's not much argument that a "day" is considered from sunset to sunset, regardless of the length of the day, according to the definition of a "day" given in Genesis 1. On any given day it might be a little less or a little more than 24 hours (though it will average out to that). If sunset happens at 6:52 one day and 6:57 the next day, the "day" was 24 hours and 5 minutes long. A "month" is however long it takes for the moon to go from new to new, whether that's 29 or 31 days. So if the Bible talks about something measured in "years", and it's not further defined, I think we're talking about revolutions around the sun, no matter how many days may be involved in that.

***I think Rev. 6's 1260 days are the same as v. 14's "time, and times, and half a time." To me, these days are the exact number of days in the correct place in the calendar. They fit exactly where they belong and are not the norm in just any such set of years.

So if 2000 years is really 1972 years because a "year" is really "360 days", then Pentecost / Shavuot could be any time of year and it would move about 5 days or so earlier in the year each year. Thus during 2000 "prophetic eyars" (years), Shavuot / Pentecost would move forward 400 days or 1 year and 40 days, making it about 30-50 days earlier in the year on this "prophetic calendar" that it would occur on a calendar where the months and years are kept in harmony with each other, putting Pentecost at about the time of Passover.

That of course, would be silly, since God made it clear Passover is always to start in the spring. Thus, a "year" must revolve around the solar cycles, and not be compressed to some silly 360 day notion. Shalom, Joe

***In use, the Feast of Firstfruits seems to regulate the calendar. The Jews have to have "abib" barley (in the ear, just ripening) to offer on Firstfruits. The month of Nisan also is called Abib (the month of young ears of grain). It has to be in the spring. It cannot rotate around the seasons. Zif (Iyar, 2nd month in the sacred year) refers to the beauty and splendor of the flowers in the spring.

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A friend of my office manager tells of a guest preacher at her church last Sunday. He is recently back from South Africa and gives the following testimony:

Although the mainstream media do not cover it, the government of South Africa has broken down. Everywhere there are roving gangs. Many women have been raped. If a couple is caught by them driving a car, the man is shot, the woman is raped, and then the car stolen. One area is known as "butchersville" for the large numbers of murders there. They have tried to report crimes to the police, who are evidently more corrupt than the brigands. Their reply was "not to go to church so much."

(The government disarmed the people a couple of years ago, now the only ones armed are the roving bands of brigands.) There is a booming business in outfitting cars with flamethrowers. Since you can't own a gun, this is the only way you can keep brigands away from your car in order to travel.

They lived in a house surrounded by a two foot thick concrete wall, topped by an electrified wire. This was to keep out the roving bands of armed brigands. Finally, they could not take it any more, so they left.

This is probably what those left behind can expect to encounter under the NWO during the trib! It seems that Satan has truly taken over in South Africa.

I know you must have readers in South Africa...wonder if any one else could confirm this?

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