Pro and Con 779

Posted 7-18-01

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Re: Moonbow http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010704.html

Note: This is a night scene. Such a long exposure was used that it appears to be daylight. I didn't know there could be a moonbow except encircling the moon when it is going to rain. In this one, we can see the end of it hitting the water. Those are fishing vessels in the cove. You can tell that it is night, because they have lights on.
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Israel puts extra troops and tanks into West Bank
By Phil Reeves in Jerusalem 7-18-01
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=84019
Israel sent extra infantry troops, tanks and other armoured vehicles into the occupied West Bank last night as the Middle East conflict developed into a new crisis....
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From 5doves site: Frank R Molver (18 July) "debka 7/17"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2001/frankm718-5.htm
Israel Begins Mobilizing Substantial Infantry and Tank Forces Tuesday Night to Augment West Bank Units Hours After First Palestinian Mortars Fired on Jerusalem First 60mm Mortar Shell Lands in Gilo, S. Jerusalem, Second nearby on Jerusalem's Tunnel Highway.

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To the writer wanting information on South African Crime Levels.

Firstly I would like to point out that internationally South Africans are known to be one of the most hospitable, friendly and warm hearted people, our crime rate is high in comparison to many first world countries as we still have a very large third world situation here. I live in the Western Cape, Somerset West, we have had shop owners burgled and shot at especially those closer to the squatter camps inhabited mostly by illegal immigrants from our Northern Borders, these people where largely brought in by Catholic Missionaries during the time of the 1994 elections. My house is walled in with an electric gate (the gate is not electrified to cause a shock, it is convenient for exiting and entering with remote control) I have no barbed wire and go to sleep each night with my door unlocked, in the summer months I leave the door open with my German Shepherd Dog sleeping either in or outside the house as he chooses, my house has never been burgled and neither have my neighbours homes, we are cautious at night as to where we go, this is when the crime escalates and thank God we do live in a safe area. The gang related crimes in the western Cape is mainly in the township areas inhabited by Muslim groups, a very large population live here. East London is in the Eastern Cape which borders the Transkei, an independent home land, it is a lovely coastal City with a good climate, excellent beaches and friendly people, caution should be taken at night in the city centre as well as going for walks on your own etc. Most of us in South Africa carry mobile phones as a precautionary method of staying in touch, public transport should be avoided as this is not safe for a white girl (don't mean to sound racist here but it is a fact) missionary work is often done in the Transkei especially from the Port Elizabeth and East London areas, this is an incredible experience and well organised, also very safe. My brother and sister both went to the Transkei to do missionary work with the Presbyterian Church and came back with happy hearts, pleased with the work that the Lord had led them to do. Bon Voyage to the 16 year old, you will have an incredible experience in our beautiful country, may the Lord bless you and keep you safe. Kind Regards

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Re: SALVATION AFTER THE RAPTURE
A friend recently told my wife of a discussion she had her SS teacher concerning salvation after the rapture and whether or not people could be saved during the tribulation. She asked me what I thought and to please give scriptural support. I know there are two camps of thought on this with some very respectable people differing on interpretations. Many in the "no" group site 2nd Thes 2:11-12 which makes reference to the "strong delusion" and "the lie" that will be believed by those who would not be saved before the rapture. However, Revelation 7:14 speaks of the those saved out of "great tribulation." And what about the "144,000" which were obviously sealed after the rapture, not to mention the two witnesses?...I would appreciate your commentary on the subject with the associated scriptural justification. Thanks so much for your courteous and informative response. Keep up the good work! In Christ

My reply

...2Th 2:9-12 says, "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

At Mid-Trib, when the False Prophet becomes Satan-possessed, those that have not accepted Christ, and that God in his foreknowledge knows will not accept him, will be used to bring the prophecies to pass. This is like the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart. By not accepting Christ, they leave themselves open to be deceived by the False Prophet, the final Antichrist.

As you thought, there will be a great number of people who will be saved during the Tribulation. They are the ones that receive the love of the truth and accept Christ. Agape

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Re: Scenario on Rev. Chapter 18
My adult son and I watch prophecy events carefully, especially the last couple years. Chad had a "thought' last Friday about the upcoming G-8 summit in Genoa and a possible connection to Revelation chapter 18. Without going into a treatise on Revelation, I have always wondered about the judgements on the 'religious' system in Chapter 17 and the 'commercial' system in Chapter 18. Of special note is the kings of the earth that watch the destruction from afar, as well as those on ships watching the spectacle. Most of the G-8 dignitaries may stay aboard their ships!

Question: Could the G-8 summit in Genoa or possibly a future summit like this be the event of Chapter 18?...

Those two chapters have always seemed out of 'sequential' placement in Revelation. I had thought that they were a last big judgement on the world right at the end of the tribulation, and right before the second coming. How else would you read this? Thanks, and In Christ

My reply

This meeting has to do with One World Government, but I don't think it has much to do directly with Revelation 17 and 18. Maybe it would help if I show you how I think Revelation is organized up to that point.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. That is when he is revealed to us. The book, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture. In Rev. 2:5, he says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee QUICKLY, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place (in Heaven, Rev. 1:13), except thou repent (I John 1:9)."

The book seems to be organized using 3 circle clocks, each clock is 6 circles in a ring surrounding a 7th circle, all enclosed within an outer circle. Clock # 1 is the 7 seals. Inside the 7th seal inner circle is clock # 2, the 7 trumpets. Inside the 7th trumpet inner circle are the 7 vials. Since the Tribulation/70th week of Daniel runs during a parenthetic time between the normal end of this age and the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord, there are parenthetic portions in Revelation between the 6th and 7th seals, the 6th and 7th trumpets, and the 6th and 7th vials. Besides these, there are some other sections that are not chronological. In these sections, there are match marks that show us where they belong in the timeline.

Between the 6th and 7th seals, we see those that are to be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They come out of "great tribulation." Between the 6th and 7th trumpets, John was to eat a little book. He was told, "Thou must prophesy again" (Rev. 10:11). As he begins to prophesy again, Rev. 11 goes back to the beginning of the Tribulation. The 2 witnesses prophesy during the first 1260 days. By v. 7, the 1260 days are up, and the 2 witnesses are killed. Three days later, they are resurrected and caught up to Heaven. 7000 die in an earthquake at Jerusalem.

The 5th trumpet is the 1st woe, the 6th trumpet the 2nd woe, and the 7th trumpet the 3rd woe. Therefore, when we read Rev. 11:14, "The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly," we know that this time is the end of the shortened Tribulation. In the rest of chapter 11, we can see that this is the day Christ is crowned in Heaven. The Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment of Christ also take place that day. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army of Eze. 38 is attacking Israel), and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." The saints in Heaven get their rewards while the unsaved on Earth get the asteroid impacts.

In Rev. 12, the devil is cast down to Earth. He "knoweth that he hath but a short time" (v. 12). Therefore Rev. 12 is talking about Mid-Trib. Chapter 13 takes us back to the beginning of the Tribulation. Verse 11 is Mid-Trib. This chapter takes us to the time the False Prophet tries to make everyone take the Mark of the Beast.

Chapter 14:1-5 is about the Pre-Wrath Rapture, it fits together with chapter 7 and the 144,000 Israelites. In verse 7, we see that "the hour of his judgment is come." That is the Judgment Seat of Christ, so it fits together with the last part of chapter 11. The fall of Babylon, the doom of the Beast worshippers, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture (the first sickle reaping, v. 14-16, all take place on the same day. So does the Wrath of God. The 2nd sickle reaping is to throw the unbelievers into the winepress of the Wrath of God.

Rev. 15:1-4 show us the saints in Heaven with the sea of ice crystals in its ring system. Then "thy judgments are made manifest" (v. 4). Chapter 16 tells us what happens when the vials of God's wrath are poured out on Earth. Between the 6th and 7th vials is another parenthetic section. Demons go out to gather the kings of the whole world to Armageddon (which will be fought after the Second Advent). With the 7th vial in v. 17, we see that "It is done." Verses 18-20-21 tell us the results of the asteroid impacts. The cities of the nations fall in the worldwide earthquake. All 3 circle clocks have been fulfilled when "It is done."

Chapter 17 starts a new section. It goes back to right after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. Notice v. 14's, "they that ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL." We need to be caught up on some important information that was not included before. We can also tell that the Rapture is the setting, because v. 12 says, "the ten horns which thou sawest are TEN KINGS, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast." Back in Rev. 13, the Tribulation was beginning, and the 10 kings were already crowned, so this is before that. The purpose here is to help us recognize the harlot church, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (v. 5).

At the Rapture, The beast that thou sawest was (in Judas Iscariot, the 1st son of perdition), and is not (in man at the Rapture); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (Mid-Trib), and go into perdition (the False Prophet, the 2nd son of perdition)." John 17:12 says of Judas, "none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled." II Thess. 2:3 says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the SON OF PERDITION." These are the only 2 called this. They are the only 2 actually possessed by Satan himself.

There "are seven kings: five are fallen (heads of Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome), and ONE IS (the Beast, the Tribulation Pope, head over Ecclesiastical Rome and world government, Rev. 13:7,8), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a SHORT SPACE (the shortened Great Tribulation)" (v. 10). The harlot "is that great city (Vatican City), which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (v. 18).

This world church will have a new headquarters built in literal Babylon on the Euphrates River. In Zeph. 5:5-11, we see the world church symbolized as an ephah, the largest wheat measure. "This is their resemblance through All the earth...Whither do these bear the ephah? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (the Tower of Babel, where the Mystery Religion of Babylon started.

Rev. 18 is after this world church and world government have moved their headquarters to Babylon. It is the day of the Wrath of God. The asteroid of Rev. 8:10 will destroy Babylon. Verse 21 says, "a mighty angel took up a STONE LIKE A GREAT MILLSTONE, AND CAST IT INTO THE SEA, SAYING, THUS WITH VIOLENCE SHALL THAT GREAT CITY BABYLON BE THROWN DOWN, AND SHALL BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL." Agape

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Re: Scenario on Rev. Chapter 18
Thanks for the response. I didn't notice Rev 17:14. That helped with the perspective. You're good!

Now..., do I understand that you think that the kings that witness the city's destruction from afar are the same ten kings as those who gain power with the 'False Prophet' for one hour? And how would there be ship-borne people watching this event if it is the city of Babylon? I thought Babylon was well inland in Iraq.

I'm not arguing, cause I don't know how to fit this all together. I'm simply questioning the details of these two chapters.

I guess I just thought that a terrorist attack ( Osama Bin Laden, etc. ) and a possible suitcase nuke in a city like Genoa could qualify as a fulfillment of Chapter 18, or simply a typology ( prelude ) to the final fulfillment.

Don't spend too much time on this or me, cause I have a deep feeling that we'll know all the answers pretty soon. I'm watching Jerusalem closely. I appreciate your work. Thanks, in Christ

My reply

I'm glad you appreciate my writing.

> > do I understand that you think that the kings that witness the city's destruction from afar are the same ten kings as those who gain power with the 'False Prophet' for one hour?

Not necessarily. So many die in the worldwide earthquake, who knows if all 10 will even be alive. Rev. 18:9 just says "the kings of the earth." V. 11 says, "the merchants of the earth." V. 17 says, "every shipmaster."

> > how would there be ship-borne people watching this event if it is the city of Babylon? I thought Babylon was well inland in Iraq.

The asteroid impact itself causes a big cloud of debris and smoke that can be seen a long way off. What isn't burned by the impact blast will be set on fire as the hot rocks rain down, and as the earthquake shakes down every wall (Eze. 38:20). There will be wildfires all over the place, and no way of stopping them all. Because the Earth is rotating, the falling debris will spread the fiery devastation far away from the initial impact point. Civilization as we know it will be destroyed. Agape

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http://www.watch.org/showart.php3?idx=14035&rtn=/index.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1
Middle East High Drama—Bill Koenig 7-17-01
PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT OVERTURES
The situation in the Middle East is at a very serious stage. Many prophecy watchers believe that, as the Bible forecasts in Daniel 9:27, the world is nearing the time for a peace "covenant with many for one seven (year period)," but it will only last for half that time.

At the same time, it is not difficult for any prophecy student to discern also that the world is moving towards the fulfillment of key Biblical "end-time" scenarios. These would be the world's final Middle East battles:

Those spoken of in Isaiah, chapters 17 and 19, having to do with the devastation of Damascus, Syria and Egypt by Israel. The Gog and Magog War of Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39, having to do with the Russian and Islamic invasion of Israel in which they are defeated by Israel through the Lord's help. And the final battle, the Battle of Armageddon, where the world's armies come against Jerusalem as mentioned in Joel 3:1-3 and Revelation 16:16....

During the week of October 11, Jewish settlers on 15 West Bank hilltops in Israel were evicted. The settlers resisted this eviction and the confrontation was reported in the national media throughout the week. Remember, President Clinton was the power behind Israel's giving land for peace.

On October 16, the New York Times ran a front-page article about this confrontation titled, "On the West Bank, a Mellow View of Eviction." What is amazing, also on the same front page was an article titled, "Big Sell-Off Caps Dow's Worst Week Since October '89." During the week, the market lost 5.7 percent, and it was the worst week since October 1989.

While Israel was forcing settlers off the covenant land, the stock market was melting down. On October 15, the market lost 266 points! Also on October 15, Hurricane Irene hit North Carolina, and on the morning of the 16th, a powerful 7.1 earthquake rocked the Southwest. (Read Ezekiel 11:17)....

Additionally, the Arafat administration of the Palestine Liberation Organization has studied the work of Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda mastermind in Nazi Germany. He hated Jews. His method was to stir something up, blame it on the Jews, and then call for martial law.

Arafat follows a similar "modus operandi;" he starts the violent intifada, blames it on the Jews, and then calls for United Nations peacekeepers. The whole world, except the United States, now seems to be in favor of U.N. peacekeepers.

My reply

> > Isaiah, chapters 17 and 19...devastation of Damascus, Syria and Egypt by Israel.

The devastation is not by Israel, but by the Lord. Isa. 17:11-14 says, "the harvest (thrown into "the great winepress of the wrath of God," Rev. 14:19) shall be a heap in THE DAY OF GRIEF AND OF DESPERATE SORROW. Woe to the multitude of many people (Gog's united nations army attacking Israel, Eze. 38), which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The NATIONS shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but GOD SHALL REBUKE THEM, and they shall flee far off (the 1/6th that are not killed, Eze. 39:2), and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind (from the asteroid impact blast, Rev. 8:8), and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us."

Isa 19:22 "THE LORD SHALL SMITE EGYPT: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD."

> > The Gog and Magog War of Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39, having to do with the Russian and Islamic invasion of Israel in which they are defeated by Israel through the Lord's help.

This battle is when all nations come against Israel. Zech. 14:2,3 says, "I will gather ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Joshua 10:10,11 tells us of that battle. It says, "the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword."

Isa 34:1-5 says, "Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it (a piece of the asteroid) shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment."

> > And the final battle, the Battle of Armageddon, where the world's armies come against Jerusalem as mentioned in Joel 3:1-3 and Revelation 16:16.

Joel is talking about the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, not Armageddon, which takes place after Christ returns. There are 7 Jewish months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). Joel 1:1-15 says, "offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. (It is the Feast of Trumpets, 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.) Sanctify ye a fast (the Days of Awe precede the fast day, the Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly (the Feast of Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1,2 says of that day, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand (it will start at 6 PM); A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it."

Rev. 19:14 describes Christ's return on the white horse. Then verses 19-21 describe Armageddon, "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

> > Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda mastermind in Nazi Germany. He hated Jews. His method was to stir something up, blame it on the Jews, and then call for martial law. > > Arafat follows a similar "modus operandi;" he starts the violent intifada, blames it on the Jews, and then calls for United Nations peacekeepers. The whole world, except the United States, now seems to be in favor of U.N. peacekeepers.

I think the UN and the Pope will get into the act when the covenant of Dan. 9:27 is confirmed. The Palestinian leadership has to be controlled by someone. They do not want peace, and use violent acts to kill every peace agreement on purpose. What they want is every Jew dead and no such country as Israel, and you know who is behind that, the arch enemy of God. However, the Lord has other plans. Just when they think they are winning the fight, the Lord will step in and defeat them--but good. Only 1/6th of their army will remain alive. Eze. 39:2,4 says of Gog's army, "I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel....Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured."

Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel); Before the decree (choq, set time) bring forth, before the day (Feast of Trumpets) pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD'S anger (Feast of Trumpets). For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." Ekron is east and a little bit north of Ashkelon.

The "great mountain burning with fire," an asteroid, will be cast into the Mediterranean Sea (Rev. 8:8). Isn't it strange that Gaza will be forsaken? Too bad that the people headquartered there don't read the Bible. It is all there in black and white. They think they have all the time they need to wipe Israel off the map, 200 years if necessary, but they may have less than 7 years.

Steps leading up to the covenant that will be confirmed (Dan. 9:27):
(1) Oslo 1: Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements - signed September 13, 1993, ratified in Israel 3 days later, Tishri 1, 5754. Seven-year warning? Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 18, 2001) (2) Olso 2: Treaty Of Peace Between Israel And The Hashemite Kingdom Of Jordan October 26, 1994
(3) Wye River Memorandum - October 23, 1998
(4)The Mitchell Report On Israeli-Palestinian Violence April 30, 2001

Dan. 9:27 (NAB) says, "For one week (of years) he (the False Prophet) shall make a firm compact with the many (probably the Beast/Tribulation Pope and the UN or OWG as well as the head of the PA); Half the week (latter half, the Great Tribulation) he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation; On the temple wing shall be the horrible abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the horror."

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