Pro and Con 780

Posted 7-20-01

I finally found a picture of Eta Carinae, taken by the Hubble Space Telescope, that shows the red clouds around it. I put it on the Home Page in place of the other one.
The Chicxulub crater thought to have killed the dinosaurs.
Impact! 65 Million Years Ago

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Re: Fw: Special Jerusalem Report by Barbara Richmond
...The foreign troops are coming, which was the goal of Oslo to begin with. At Genoa, today, Bush agreed to bring the UN-NATO troops to Israel. Tomorrow he meets the pope to sanctify the end of Israel's hegemony....The troops, we will be told, will protect both sides from violent murder. The New World Order arrives in Israel and very soon....

My reply

One more step closer. I think that both the Pope and the NWO or UN will get in on the act when the treaty of Dan. 9:27 is confirmed with many.

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Re: pic
I & alot of others did not receive the picture of Israel,on your post #779, the moon was Wonderful,never heard of one ,have you? have you read the latest from Barbara Richmond about Israel?WOW HUH? Do you believe this could be IT"? I s there some way we can receive your map of Israel?

thank you ,again...for your service to us!!!!!!!& to all out there in the world. Do you know how many people you reach? Do you have a counter? LETS US KNOW? TIL THAT TIME SOON I HOPE!! I love you, your friend & sister4life,your ----

My reply

Thanks for letting me know you couldn't see the map. I will UL it with the next P & C. Maybe I forgot to include it last time.

Until someone sent me that picture, I didn't know we could even have a Moonbow like that. I was astonished.

I had a counter until I changed servers, but have no time to worry about that detail now.

I too have been reading Barbara Richmond. Things seem like they are about ready to pop in Israel. It is exciting watching prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes, but how I wish all Israel would turn to the Lord so all the things that will happen to them wouldn't have to come to pass. I wouldn't want to be the person that turned the temple area over to the Palestinians after God gave it back to Israel in 1967. To me, that was outstandingly foolish.

The Jews should read about Jonah going into Nineveh. It is in the Tanakh (Old Testament). It shows what repentance can do. Jonah 3 says, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them." The king said to "cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands....And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

This time, more than one city is at stake. Civilization as we know it will be in shambles when every wall will fall in the worldwide earthquake (Eze. 38:20). Rev. 16:19 gives us the blunt truth, "THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL." Our days on this Earth are ticking away. Maranatha. Agape

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Marilyn, another picture of the anchor cross today at:
I feel as if I am sitting on the edge of a chair, all ready to spring up on a moment's notice. The Lord God is truly an awesome God! His glory fills heaven and earth. Blessings to you and family. Love
Note: Zooming in on that bright tip shows the crossbow (double anchor) on my Home Page. Their press release of 6-6-2000 said, "In one of its most bizarre images yet, NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory shows the details of a compact nebula that resembles a gigantic cosmic crossbow. The nebula, located in the Vela supernova remnant, is created as a rapidly rotating neutron star, or pulsar, spins out rings and jets of high energy particles while shooting through space." On that page, there is a bright closeup picture of the crossbow.double anchor/sign of hope.

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Re: South Africa - Tribulation Preview?
A slightly satirical response to a serious situation

A little less than 2000 years ago Jesus told His followers that "iniquity would abound" (Mat 24 12) and Paul wrote to Timothy (2 Tim 3) "that in the last days perilous times shall come". Many in South Africa would agree that these prophetic words accurately describe what life has become in our land.

A recent visitor to our country reported to a church gathering in the USA some frightening, almost unbelievable, facts about life in South Africa. For those interested this report can be found at the tail end of Marilyn Agee’s Pro & Con 773 (this writer can e-mail on request). Comments in [square brackets] are quotes from this report. While some details are incorrect, much remains that is true.

First some brief historical background. A scant four hundred years ago the locals (Africans) roamed free through the bush lands of Africa. They occasional went to war with spears and shields to dominate or destroy their neighbors. Then, there came over the seas some strangers with white skins (Europeans). They had strange clothes, they brought books, tools, unusual skills ... and guns. They built their wagons, harnessed their cattle and trekked into the unknown. They built their homes, planted their crops and herded their cattle. At first they traded with the locals, then they discovered that the locals were willing to work and learn.

In a short few hundred years towns and villages sprang up as thousands more of these Europeans learned to exploit the land and the locals. Towns became cities, bush lands became fertile farms, meandering tracks became roads and railways. Many of the locals found work on the farms or in the mines. Those on the lands had found that they could no longer roam free. The locals learned new words and discovered they were "workers, (pronounced "wukkers" by the locals) and that they were being exploited". They also found they could be healed in hospitals and they could learn in schools and work in factories. They began to understand what "government" was when they had to always carry with them, their "pass books", they understood more when those men in blue uniforms locked them up for "stealing" what once was free!

They did not like it then and they do not like it now!

Then they "discovered" that if they formed "unions" they could make demands for more - more money, more power, more everything. Their numbers had grown down the years from a few hundred thousand to forty millions. The locals had leaders. Incredibly, a few had found a way to become educated in the ways of the European society. They were repressed, cruelly beaten and locked away by the European government. Slowly the voices of the African peoples of the country were being heard and the world responded ... with sanctions .. and South Africa became the "bad boy" among the nations. Today, the "wukkers" still demand more .. And more. They want FREE land, FREE houses, FREE water and electricity. Many will not (cannot) pay for basic services so numerous municipalities are bankrupt.

Just six years ago (1994) a radical, "terrifying" change took root in South African society. The "Whitey’s" were no longer in control. The "locals" had reclaimed their rights to their land. The "previously disadvantaged" were now free from their tyranny.

[.. the government of South Africa has broken down]. Hmm, ... Well now, the TV reports regularly depict our President and many government politicians jetting about the world on various important sounding delegations. They are seen to enjoy top rated hotels and limousines. They meet regularly with other governments to discuss the Aids pandemic, environmental and labor issues and of course they are leaders in the field of "Human Rights"!. Back home some can be found driving mysteriously acquired luxury vehicles and living in the best suburbs with their children attending the finest private schools. Many of the "wukkers" were jailed terrorists who were now free to enjoy their long-denied "rights" and some have even become leaders in the government.

No, we declare that the SA government has not "broken down" - not yet - at the time of writing!. But then we must ignore the country’s health & educational services which are a shambles, that local government and national law enforcement is riddled with incompetence and corruption, that our national defense force is a shadow of it was. Of course there MUST be a government, for why else would thousands of skilled "Europeans" flee the country (at the last count 22 of OUR family, friends or personal contacts in the past 3 years).

We can also confirm that there must be a government in South Africa as recently enacted laws force business and industry to employ in accordance with population demographics. That means that 85% of the workforce MUST be recruited from the "wukkers". My daughter, multi-linguist, capable & skilled, recently experienced difficulty in securing a humble secretarial job. Employment Equity it is called! The "previously disadvantaged" MUST be appointed. Competence, experience or qualifications are secondary to the color of one’s skin - a new kind of "apartheid" in reverse!!

Incompetence rules the land!

[Everywhere there are roving gangs. Many women have been raped. If a couple is caught by them driving a car, the man is shot, the woman is raped, and then the car stolen.] Yes, there are roving gangs - in certain areas. Primarily in the "colored" townships of Cape Town where militant Islamic gangs have taken to upholding their version of the law. Gang warfare is common and residents live in fear. In the "up-market" suburbs of the cities, countless millions have been spent by suburbians, to erect concrete walls and spiked steel palisade fencing often [topped by an electrified wire]. Many suburbs have erected perimeter barricades and electrified fences with armed entry points, manned by private security guards, so roving gangs have little prospect of escaping detection

Around thirty years ago my five children could walk to school and roamed free in the suburbs. Today, my ten grand children play behind steel barricades and mothers anxiously ferry their children to and from schools. Today, most suburban homes in our cities are now behind walls or fences with elaborate alarm systems. The writer, in the past year, has built our front boundary steel palisade fence, 2 meter (seven feet) high with remote controlled gate and installed a 50 mm (2 INCHES) concrete panel wall on a neighbors boundary. No, not [two foot thick concrete wall]. All this is standard stuff for 80% of properties of properties in SA. Despite this the [brigands] have scaled the neighbors walls and broken into our vehicles three times in the past 12 months, brazenly ignoring the 5 bright lamps kept burning all night. We have not bothered to report theses events to the police!

The seemingly wanton brutality of violence toward women, regardless of age, race or sex is as real as it is horrific. The tragic reality is that an unknown number of women across our country are raped every day of the week. The incidence of sexual violence and child abuse amongst our African population has increased exponentially over the past few years. Our farmers are particularly vulnerable and are being murdered in their homes, evry week, while stock theft has crippled the resources of many farmers and driven them from their lands. Cash-in-transit vehicles are regularly ambushed and a guards killed in wild-west style shoot-outs. A recent report stated over two hundred million Rands (around $70 million) had been hijacked in the past 12 months.

The death penalty was abolished by our new government and many believe that this, and a radical decline in policing efficiency, is the root cause for the astronomical escalation in crime. Our overcrowded prisons are seen by many "locals" as a state-subsidized "hotel", 3 meals a day, free clothing, shelter and free education AND with first class medical facilities, often in the exclusive private hospitals, paid for by the state! Crime victims are left to fend for themselves and have been know to die while awaiting treatment in state hospitals. Our unemployed population is soaring as South Africa has become a "destination of choice" for countless thousands of refugees north of our borders. Poverty, disease, Aids, TB, Malaria appear to be out of control. There is NO HOPE for improvement this side of our longed for millennium reign.

Oh, come King of Kings and Lord of Lord’s!

Because of the increasingly sophisticated alarms and immobilisers being fitted to high priced cars, hijacking has become the modus operandi. The most frequent method is to follow a vehicle (day or night!) to the their homes where they are attacked and ... sometimes murdered. Resistance is not advised and it is rare that these locals are caught.

The writer was hijacked at gunpoint in this manner on during May last year while opening our driveway gates. Two of my sons-in-law have been similarly hijacked at gun point as have numerous other family and business associates. Hijacked vehicles are seldom recovered unless they have satellite tracking installed. In my case, I was conscious only of the fact that I was an adopted son of God, Father would care for me, as I lunged to grab the gun and chased after the hijackers as they roared off in my car. (NOT advised!). My 9 year Toyota was inexplicably found abandoned, with the keys in the ignition, some 40 minutes after the event, just 5 kilometers from my home. The police found the car but the criminals were never caught.

Interestingly, I found a 9 mm bullet on the floor of my car a few days later. I keep it in my brief case as a reminder to "say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust" (Psalm 91)

[The government disarmed the people a couple of years ago, now the only ones armed are the roving bands of brigands] Not correct. I confirmed this week from our local arms dealer, that I may apply for a license and purchase a handgun, after it has been granted, and only for reasons of self defense, which have to be strongly motivated. Severe, restrictive laws are being tabled against fierce resistance from a segment of the public. It can be expected that gun ownership will eventually be outlawed. At the time of writing it seems that more attention is being given to the banning of smoking in public places and police resources are being further stretched to combat this "crime".

[There is a booming business in outfitting cars with flame-throwers. Since you can't own a gun, this is the only way you can keep brigands away from your car in order to travel.] We must admit to chuckling over this statement and we thought "What a great deterrent!". We had not heard of this development, but a few days after this report appeared on the Net it was presented as a news item on a local TV station. South Africans (the European variety) are proud of the their ingenuity in adversity and this kind of response is typical of the mind set! Hopefully, the visual horror of roaring flames blasting out from under the car, which would instantly incinerate any would be attacker, will become yet another defense against attack. One would hope that large visual warnings might be displayed!

[Finally, they could not take it any more, so they left]. Actual statistics of South Africans who have left the country are not disclosed (We wonder why?). We know that the government has "imported" doctors from Cuba and now teachers are being considered!. If we were not amongst the "watchman" expecting, and longing for a way past this relentless oppression of evil, we too would plan to evacuate this land sodden with demonic power. And yet, there are some amazing stories, true experiences of divine protection that encourage and thrill the hearts of the believers.

Perhaps, if the Lord so directs, there could be the time to gather and share the many real life miracles of how our Father protects and care for those facing these samplings of tribulation.

Serving Him with joy and excitement at His soon return.

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I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:
"9th of Av, 1994--Was it a 7-year warning???" by Ron Reese (18 July)
The Shoemaker-Levy comet broke off into 21 pieces, causing a series of 21 explosions. 7 plus 7 plus 7 = 21. Could this represent the 21 judgments in the Book of Revelation--the 7 vial judgments, the 7 seal judgments, and the 7 trumpet judgments? I believe this awesome collision was a definite WARNING from God, concerning His judgments in the Book of Revelation. Of the 360 Jewish days of 1994, GOD CHOSE TO HAVE THIS TREMENDOUS COLLISION TAKE PLACE AS A WARNING TO THE WORLD ON THE 9TH OF AV, 1994!!! IF THIS WAS INDEED A 7-YEAR WARNING TO THE VERY DAY, WHAT CAN WE LOOK FORWARD TO ON THE 9TH OF AV (THE DAY OF DESTRUCTION), 2001?!!...

the 9th of Av (July 29-31, 2001), COULD BE the possible time of the Rapture and/or Sudden Destruction. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Jesus)." (Luke 21:36) Maranatha!

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I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:
"The Bible Tells Us When the Rapture Will Be" Ron Reese (17 July)

It is my conclusion, after years of study, that the Bible tells us when the Rapture will be. IT WILL BE SIMULTANEOUS WITH, OR VERY NEAR THE TIME OF THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION! I would strongly encourage you to read my June 14th posting on the Five Doves Letters, entitled "Are the Rapture and the Sudden Destruction at the Same Time?". There is strong Biblical evidence to support this conclusion. But when is the Sudden Destruction???

My thoughts

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the asteroid impacts Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5). I expect this 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). The 1st day of the Millennium seems to be THE day of "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION!"

The Pre-Trib Rapture can't be on the day of the 2nd Rapture. I Thess. 4:13-18 does not mention "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION." Instead, it says to "COMFORT ONE ANOTHER with these words."

Right after that, I Thess. 5:1-11 says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another."

To me, news of impending sudden destruction is not at all comforting. After the 2nd Rapture, Rev 21:4 tell us that "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Those could include tears of relief, because they were caught up as out of the horror of the fiery furnace. Like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were told by Nebuchadnezzar, "COME FORTH, AND COME HITHER," in Dan. 3:26, Christ will probably say, "Come up hither" to the Tribulation saints. He says it to the Bride at the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 4:1), and he says it to Moses and Elijah 3.5 days after they are killed Mid-Trib (Rev. 11:12).

That 3.5 days probably represents the Great Tribulation, after which the Tribulation saints are caught up to Heaven. However, that space is shortened between the 6th and 7th seals. The end of the Age is at the 6th seal. The 7th is broken the next day, the 1st day of the Millennium.

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Re: My Doves
Wonder if you remember some time ago I "complained" because I had not seen a dove. Well, I was moving some framed prints from my house to my apartment in town. I saw a framed print I have had for a number of years. As I was cleaning it I realized/remembered it is two doves. One is sitting on a limb and the other is taking a bath in a bit of water. I turned it over and the tag on the back had the title, "Patiently Waiting." It gave me goose bumps. Going to hang that picture where I can easily see it.

I am facing two partial knee implants. The cartilage on the inside of both knees is gone. I have been given injections into right knee to see if that will give me enough cushion to last maybe six months. If that works with right knee, will have injections in left knee. If it doesn't work with right knee, will have to have partial implants in both knees. What does this have to do with the rapture?

I have thought for some time that the most direct information about the rapture is Christ telling us it will be as in the days of Noah. That was a direct answer to a direct question. It is clear and plain to all. We don't have to interpret, or guess. In pro/con 771 you nailed down the dates as the flood receded. So glad you know the calendars. I believe that is the most logical explanation of the timing. You/we have thought the rapture might be on a feast day and we have shopped around for the right one, mainly thinking Pentecost. That day removes us from the days of Noah. Staying with Noah, the only feast day that fits is the Feast-of-Trumpets, Tishri 1, Sept. 18 in 2001. That is the day "the waters were dried up from off the earth." Your entire dissertation on this in pro/con 771 is brilliant.

The flood waters were gone in September. If I have to have knee surgery on both knees, I will wait until after September. Maybe I will fly away in September and have two good knees at the same time. Rev. 21: 4: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain (that means new knees); for the former things are passed away."

This brings up another subject. We have never talked about the holy Jerusalem, what it will be like for us. Rev. 21:10, "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," Rev: 22:1-2: "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." The water and the fruit give us eternal life. I believe the elements to keep tissue alive are in the water and the fruit; elements our scientists have not found. (The water and the fruit will keep cartilage in the knees from deteriorating, yes, it will.) The leaves of the tree have the elements to cure all illness.

I encourage all readers to read Rev. 21 and 22. Heaven described. We write all the time about how to get there, when we will get there, but we don't write about what it will look/be like. Please, Marilyn, write about Rev. 21,22. How big is it? How about those cubits and furlongs? You know which gems represent which tribes of Israel. Twelve gates of pearl. No sun, no moon, no night.

I, as my doves, are patiently waiting. Love

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

I remember that you hadn't seen a dove. Your picture sounds like a lovely one. I see and hear doves often. They seem to be docile and friendly, not skittish. If I'm outside and hear one coo, I try to stop and see where it is. I think it was last year that we could come up close enough to reach out and touch a mother sitting on her nest on top of a neighbor's pretty low porch pillar. She didn't move at all, just looked back at us in a peaceful trusting way. I am patiently waiting too.

> > write about Rev. 21,22. How big is it? How about those cubits and furlongs? You know which gems represent which tribes of Israel. Twelve gates of pearl. No sun, no moon, no night.

There are 582 feet in a furlong. This sphere would have a diameter of about 1323 miles. However, this picture is so symbolic, we can't be sure that the dimensions are exact. What is important is to realize that the length, breadth and height are all equal in a sphere. I Ki. 7:31 says, "the mouth of it within the chapiter and above was a cubit: but the mouth thereof was round after the work of the base, a cubit and an half: and also upon the mouth of it were gravings with their borders, foursquare, not round." Foursquare can indicate round, or as if a sphere was in a cube box that fit it exactly. That's why this says, "not round."

Isa. 11:12 says, "he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." We know the Earth is a sphere, but it still can be represented as having four corners. The length, breadth and height are the same for a box or for a ball that just fits inside the box.

< < (Heaven) How big is it? How about those cubits and furlongs? You know which gems represent which tribes of Israel. Twelve gates of pearl. No sun, no moon, no night.

That's a tall order. We are not told very much. Much of what we are told could be symbolic. There is a river and fruitful trees. The figures for size could be symbolic of a sphere, but a cubit is 18" (a long cubit is 20"). A furlong is 582 feet. This works out to be about 1,323 miles in diameter, for the city of New Jerusalem. It might be a satellite of Saturn, for it will come "down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Rev. 21:2). Earth is 7,532 miles in diameter. Our Moon is 2,160 miles in diameter. Saturn is listed as 74,600 miles in diameter, but it has heavy clouds. Who knows what size the rock inside is? We won't need the Sun or a Moon, for the Lord will give us light. I Cor. 2:9 says, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Ex. 28:10 says the names of the 12 tribes were on the 2 onyx stones "according to their birth," so I assume that the 12 stones on the breastplate were also assigned "according to their birth."
1st row: (1) Reuben - sardius, (2) Simeon - topaz, (3) Levi - carbuncle
2nd row: (4) Judah - emerald, (5) Dan - sapphire, (6) Naphtali - diamond
3rd row: (7) Gad - ligure, (8) Asher - agate, (9) Issachar - amethyst
4th row: (10) Zebulun - beryl, (11) Joseph - onyx, (12) Benjamin - jasper

After knowing the pain Ed's mother went through with her knee implant during post-op therapy, I sure hope you don't have to get it done. Her hip implant was a breeze compared to her knee. Agape

From the 5doves site


I have said a while back that I believe that the 144,000 Jewish Firstfruits, and the Gentile Bride (including Messianic Jews) will be Raptured together, and at the same time. I have seen nothing or heard nothing yet that would alter that opinion.
Re: Joe's "The Young Jewish boy" - Joe Hoyle (17 July)

...But that does not alter my thinking that the 144,000 Jewish Firstfruits and Gentile Bride goes up together.

I will still need conclusive proof that I am wrong on that before I change my mind. I will need the Lord God to tell me pointblank that I am wrong, and I would expect that. I'm teachable, and it be I'm wrong, then that would have to be admitted....

My reply

Hi Joe. I have been enjoying your posts. I was surprised that you think the 144,000 Israelites are called up to Heaven at the same time as the Gentile Bride. I think there are 2 Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. However, I do think that the 144,000 are part of the Bride of Christ. That seems to be the only thing that would fit, since Rev. 14:4,5 says that "they are VIRGINS" and "the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. For in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

If they are virgins without fault, it seems that they have to be added to the Bride group. However, that does not automatically mean that they are caught up to Heaven at the same time as those you call the "Gentile Bride." The first group are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are out of all nations and are in Heaven before the 1st seal is broken in Rev. 6. The second group are in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14 before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. There are the shortened-Tribulation years separating the 2 events.

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