Pro and Con 783

Posted 7-25-01

I got a Sir Cam virus again last night. Took 22 minutes to come in, biggest one yet. Got another one this morning--maybe 5 minutes to DL. These have all said the same thing in the e-mail portion (in bold), but here are variations:
Always starts with "Hi! How are you?" "I send you this file in order to have your advice" or "I hope you like the file that I sendo you" or "I hope you can help me with this file that I send" or "This is the file with the information you ask for" Always ends with "See you later. Thanks" This was from: Rolando Alto IV, rolando.alto@cbnasia.org Subject: HEAL-SQI. It came from my old server, pe.net, by my new server, pe.net.

This seems to confirm my suspicions that this is an Asian. What suggested that to me is the stilted English messages. However, others think it started in a South American country, maybe because it has both English and Spanish versions.

Sircam contains its own mail program so it can travel with no external help. But like other viruses, a machine only becomes infected when the message containing the file is opened and the attachment launched.

I DL the Free AVG Anti-virus program. It checked for the latest data and then checked all my files. No virus. It pays to Delete e-mail with attachments. ---
All About Cookies
http://www.earthlink.net/internet/security/cookies.html
Can a cookie carry a computer virus that will infect my computer?
No. Viruses are carried by executable files. Since cookies are text only, which cannot contain executable files, they cannot carry viruses.

From 5doves site

"REPLY TO SLAVESON'S POST" - Joe Hoyle (21 July) http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2001/jhoyle721-1.htm

...(In South Africa) from late afternoon until the next morning, the crime element takes control and rules the streets; which means crime, anarchy, and fear is a nightly way of daily life there.

If this is really part of the activity that the World has to look forward to soon, and it may be, then many of these Christian's running around espousing this split rapture and triple rapture stuff had better start cooling their jets on these strange doctrines, and really start to concentrate on the only (ONE) RAPTURE that is really going to matter. And that is the one everyone is so expectant about, which is the Escape that the Lord Jesus said to be Watching and Praying for, in His Scripture at the bottom of this post. That one will be the only ONE to be concerned about, even if there are ones afterward, which I frankly don't buy into, and which is itself indeed, a FALSE DOCTRINE.

The ones who misses the coming Rapture, has nothing but trouble ahead of them going into the Tribulation, because there will be no second one to bail them out.

Good luck to the split / second rapture people; there may be a South Africa coming to the area near you.

MATTHEW 17:5......."This is My Beloved SON, in whom 'I AM' well pleased: HEAR YE HIM."
LUKE 21:35......."For as a Snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE Earth."
LUKE 21:36......."WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY always that ye may be accounted WORTHY to Escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the 'SON OF MAN'."

My reply

I'm having trouble believing that you really have as myopic a view of the end times as you expressed in this post. Maybe you just bit into a sour pickle when you thought about crime at night in South Africa. What would you have people do, print up I Thess. 4:13-18, I Cor. 15:51,52, Luke 21:36 and Rev. 3:10, 4:1-5:14 and study just those and nothing else? That kind of tunnel vision would be dangerous, and I don't really think you would actually advise it.

You know as well as I do that "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Tim. 3:16). You know that "ALL these things happened unto them (the Israelites) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come" (I Cor. 10:11). You know that it takes diligent study of the whole Bible to understand what is coming in the ends of the ages that is coming upon this generation. You know that Isa. 28:13 says that "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Let's take a deep breath, pray for understanding, and look at some scriptures here and there with an open mind.

I Thess. 4:16,17 shows both living and dead saints caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They are caught up when the "trump of God" sounds. This is the first, and only, time these exact words appear in Scripture. It is not said to be the second or third trump of God. Therefore, it is the FIRST "trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

John, the other 11 apostles, and the 12 patriarchs of Israel are in the group that "shall rise FIRST." They are the 24 elders caught up in Rev. 4:1 and raised at the first trump and seen sitting on 24 thrones around the throne of God in Heaven in Rev. 4:4. It says, "a door was opened in heaven: and the FIRST VOICE which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which SAID, COME UP HITHER." Here, we have clues telling us that this is the FIRST trump telling saints to "Come up hither."

In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, John explains what took him from Patmos (meaning mortal) to Heaven, where he saw Christ in his glory with the 7 candlesticks (churches, i.e., saints) around him. In Rev. 1:9,10, he said, "I John...was in the isle that is called Patmos (i.e., he was mortal), for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Day of the Son of Man), and heard behind me a great VOICE, as of a TRUMPET." In this first trumpet voice, Christ said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." In Rev. 4:1, John said this is the "FIRST VOICE WHICH I HEARD" that was "as it were of a TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME; WHICH SAID, COME UP HITHER."

Not only John and the other 23 elders are seen in Heaven after the first trumpet voice of God says, "Come up hither," but "saints. And they sung a NEW (i.e., FIRST) song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall (in the future) reign on (epi, over) the earth."

These are the wise virgins, the Bride of Christ. While the foolish went to buy more oil, "the bridegroom CAME (i.e., at the first trump); and THEY THAT WERE READY went in with him to the marriage: and THE DOOR WAS SHUT" (Mt. 25:10).

This is as in the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37f). When all went into the Ark, the door was shut. No more got in. No living ones got in. No dead ones got in. Noah and his sons had their brides with them. No other brides got in. At the first trump of God, only the group of living saints seen in Mt. 25:10 and Rev. 4 and 5 get in their Ark. (Probably only those that belong in the Bride group are resurrected too.) After that "THE DOOR WAS SHUT."

Concerning the loading of the Ark, Gen. 7:16 says, "they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and THE LORD SHUT HIM IN."

Thus, we see that "DOOR...OPENED IN HEAVEN" in Rev. 4:1, and that same "DOOR WAS SHUT" in Mt. 25:10. The opening of Heaven's door is the FIRST TRUMP OF GOD (I Thess. 4:16), the FIRST time the door opens in Heaven (Rev. 4:1), and the FIRST time any of the Bride group are seen in Heaven (Rev. 5:9).

So, no one else can be added to the Bride group. That is all finished. Right?

Wrong. In Rev. 14:1-5 we see the 144,000 Israelites standing with Christ in Heaven. They sing "as it were (hos, as it had been, i.e., as it was at the first trump) a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and THE ELDERS (previously caught up at the FIRST TRUMP): and no man (i.e., no one caught up in the 2nd Rapture) could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which WERE REDEEMED (agorazo, bought from the market) FROM THE EARTH." They are caught up just before the fall of Babylon is announced in 14:8.

"These are they which were not defiled with women (false religions); for they are VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found NO GUILE: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."

The 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS, so they were caught up to Heaven at the FIRST TRUMP OF GOD. Right?

Wrong. Those caught up at the FIRST TRUMP are caught up before Christ breaks the 1st seal on the Title Deed of the Earth. That Bride group is a KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS. James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."

The 144,000 "CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION" in Rev. 7:14 AFTER the 6th seal had been broken in Rev. 6:12, but before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. They, along with a great multitude of others, have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:14,15).

The 144,000 are sealed in Rev. 7 after the 1st Rapture has already taken place in 4:1. They are sealed in that period called "hereafter" in 4:1. Without a second Rapture, there would be no way for the living ones to be added to the Bride group in Heaven before the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

In I Cor. 15:51-53, Paul gave us a clue to help us understand this mystery. He said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we (believers) shall ALL (of both Raptures) be CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

There is a FIRST TRUMP, and there is a LAST TRUMP. Nu. 10 1-4 is the prototype. It helps us understand. "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly (like the 'Come up hither'), and for the journeying of the camps (plural). And when they shall blow with them (BOTH, i.e., at the LAST TRUMP), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles), shall gather themselves unto thee."

When these 24 elders are gathered to the Lord at the FIRST TRUMP, the wise-virgin Bride will also be gathered. The 144,000 Israelites will be added to the Bride group at the LAST TRUMP.

There are two Days of the Son of Man (i.e., two Raptures). Luke 17:22-37 explains this for us. Jesus "said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE (singular) OF THE DAYS (plural) OF THE SON OF MAN, and ye shall not see it (the 1st Rapture). And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there (i.e., 'he is in the desert,' Mt. 24:26): go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day....And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they MARRIED wives, they were given in MARRIAGE, until the DAY (singular, i.e., FIRST DAY OF THE SON OF MAN) that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

"Likewise ALSO (i.e., at the SECOND DAY OF THE SON OF MAN) as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded (notice that no marriage is mentioned, and no married pair made it all the way out of Sodom); But the same day that Lot (meaning veiled) went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (apokalupto, to take off the cover, i.e., unveiled). In that day (i.e., at the LAST TRUMP), he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back (he won't need anything, because it is the 2nd Rapture). Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken (in Rapture 2), and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be TAKEN, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, WHERE, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), thither will the EAGLES (high flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together."

Isa. 40:31 says, "they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." After the Exodus, Ex 19:4 says, "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on EAGLE'S WINGS, and BROUGHT YOU UNTO MYSELF."

In the Tanakh (OT), there were two Raptures. Enoch was caught up before the Flood tribulation, just as we will be caught up before the Seventieth-Week-of-Daniel Tribulation. Elijah was caught up during tribulation, when Jezebel wanted to kill him. During the coming Tribulation, a Jezebel will "seduce my servants to commit fornication" (Rev. 2:20), i.e., join together with "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:5).

Elijah had to flee to a wilderness area "by the brook Cherith (meaning GORGE), that is before Jordan (flowing down)" (I Ki. 17:5), just as the saints in Judea (praised) will have to flee to the wilderness in the middle of the Tribulation. Elijah was fed by ravens. The Jews will probably be fed by planes or helicopters dropping food to them in Petra, the rock city hollowed out of rose-red sandstone in the wilderness, where one has to enter through a narrow GORGE.

Enoch's Rapture represents our Pre-Trib Rapture. Elijah's Rapture represents the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Just as Elijah went up in the fiery chariot, there will be fire as the asteroid impacts Earth at noon on the first day of the Millennium. This is like Lot's escape. The "same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:29).

On 5doves site

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2001/jhoyle723-1.htm "REPLY TO MARILYN" Joe Hoyle (23 July)

It is always good to see you come in here and share your thoughts. I would like to see more of you here. And with these high heat indexes around here right now, I would not mind taking a high dive into the Pacific from that boat of yours!

Now about the 144,000. None of this is written in concrete to me, but it is coming sort of close. Down through the years I have read a lot of things about the 144,000 that is not scriptural. Like they will evangelize the World, or that they will preach throughout Israel. The Word does not say any such thing, nor even mentions any kind of ministry attributed to them. It has been said that they will be hunted, hurt, persecuted, and maybe even martyred. The Word does not say any of this. Nor is there any time frame ever mentioned from where their Sealing is mentioned, until they are seen in Heaven at the Throne, and to speculate on a time frame is just pure conjecture. Many thinks they are all adult men, and the Word does not say this for sure.

All that is known and written of them for sure is that they are Sealed in Revelation Chapter 7, and then are seen in Heaven at the Throne in Revelation Chapter 14. Thats it.......nothing more and nothing else, except for what is definitively written of them in Scripture.

People have seldom ever discussed what this Sealing in the their forehead is all about. But in has to be in the Word somewhere. I believe the answer to this Sealing will be found in 1Corinthians 1:32; Ephesians 1:13; and Ephesians 4:30. For the sake of space I am not going to quote all the Scripture. I will say that the above Scripture has to do with the Holy Spirit and being Sealed in the Holy Spirit; which is all about being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and being Born Again of the Holy Spirit. I believe that is what their Sealing is all about, which would indeed be reason enough for them to be Raptured as part of the Bride of Christ Jesus.

As I have said before, their Sealing is spoken of in Revelation 5 right alongside where the great multitude is seen at the Throne, who have come out of great tribulation. No where in this chapter is it written that this large group of people came out as martyrs, or even victims of persecution; it is simply not there.

I have said for a long, long time that I believe the Rapture will occur right at the outset of the tribulation or just inside of it, and Revelation Chapter 5 just may be saying this very thing.

Anyway, if Revelation 5 was the only place where the 144,000 is seen associated with the great multitude, I may not give it much thought. But when I see the same association over in Revelation 14, then my antenna stands straight up, because wherever two of anything agrees together, there is validity in place.

Over in Revelation 14, we clearly see the 144,000 and the Bride at the Throne, and probably as ONE. The Bride seen in Revelation 14 some may ask? Absolutely! YES! They are there, and have been for a while. Revelation 14:2......."And I heard a VOICE from Heaven, as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and the VOICE of GREAT THUNDER: and I heard the VOICE of Harpers Harping with their Harps."

The above verse is the Bride Herself in Heaven, and the 144,000 is seen as part of Her. How do we know this is the Bride? Because Revelation 19:6 has the same description of Her, as Revelation 14:2.

Revelation 19:6......."And I heard as it were the VOICE of a GREAT MULITUDE, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the VOICE of MIGHTY THUNDERINGS."

And then in the following verses of Revelation 19:7-8, the Word points and speaks directly to the Bride-Saints at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, as being the 'Great Multitude' of 'VOICES OF WATER' and 'THUNDER'--'THUNDERINGS', of Revelation 14:2 and Revelation 19:6.

To me at least, it is all pretty conclusive. The 144,000 Jewish Firstfruits is indeed part of the Bride, and probably will be Raptured at the same time as their Gentile counterparts. I also believe the 144,000 is Sealed by the Holy Ghost already, or in the process of be Sealed. That is what I think.

MATTHEW 17:5......."This is My Beloved SON, in whom 'I AM' well pleased: HEAR YE HIM."
LUKE 21:35,36......."For as a Snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE Earth. WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY always that ye may be accounted WORTHY to Escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the 'SON OF MAN'." *AMEN*

My reply to Joe Hoyle

Re: 144,000 added to Bride group

Thanks for your kind words. Sadly, we don't have the sailboat now. Had to pay to sell it. It was a bad investment, but I can still feel the exhilaration of being at the helm, keeping the sails full and the boat steady in rolling seas. I loved sailing, but didn't get to do it much. Had to tend to our drapery business. The 34' Pierson was in the Calypso Sailing Club charter fleet. People would rent it for a weekend of fun. Good for the club, bad for the investor.

> > I believe the answer to this Sealing will be found in 1Corinthians 1:32; Ephesians 1:13; and Ephesians 4:30.

I Cor. 1 ends with v. 31. The first chapter with a v. 32 is neat. I Cor. 11:31,32 says, "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (kosmos, orderly arrangement, i.e., civilization as we know it).

I don't know what you meant to put there, but Eph. 1:13,14 really says it all: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (arrhabon, part of the inheritance given in advance as security for the rest) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

I sure like Eph. 4:30-32: "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

> > their Sealing is spoken of in Revelation 5 right alongside where the great multitude is seen at the Throne, who have come out of great tribulation.

You meant Rev. 7. In Rev. 6, the Tribulation begins when the 1st seal on the Title Deed of the Earth is broken. Between the 6th and 7th seals is the parenthetic chapter 7. The last statement after the 6th seal is broken is 6:17: "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Chapter 7 begins, "And after these things," so the sealing of the 144,000 is on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord." The four angels hold back the catastrophe that is coming after the Pre-Wrath Rapture just long enough for the 144,000 to be sealed and both they and the great multitude to be caught up to Heaven. This group has ''washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (v. 14). As soon as they are safely out of here, the 7th seal is broken releasing the 7 trumpet judgments on Earth in Rev. 8.

The prototype of this sealing is in Eze. 9:1-5. It says, "Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. And, behold, six men (like 6 seals in Rev.) came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north (i.e., from Heaven), and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house (i.e., ready to leave). And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and SMITE: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity."

This shows us that the sealing is just before the catastrophe. As soon as the Tribulation saints, including the 144,000 Israelites, are out of this world, destruction will hit Earth. Just as fire fell as soon as Lot was out of Sodom, the Tribulation saints will also be saved from the fire of an asteroid impact. This one will be greater than the one that split the Earth and formed the Great Rift Valley. Like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fiery furnace unhurt (Dan. 3:19f), these will be saved so as by fire.

> > No where in this chapter is it written that this large group of people came out as martyrs, or even victims of persecution; it is simply not there.

Since they are sealed the same day they are raptured, they are living. To me, this is another proof of the 2nd Rapture.

> > Revelation 14:2......."And I heard a VOICE from Heaven, as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and the VOICE of GREAT THUNDER: and I heard the VOICE of Harpers Harping with their Harps." > > The above verse is the Bride Herself in Heaven, and the 144,000 is seen as part of Her. How do we know this is the Bride? Because Revelation 19:6 has the same description of Her, as Revelation 14:2. Revelation 19:6......."And I heard as it were the VOICE of a GREAT MULTITUDE, and as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the VOICE of MIGHTY THUNDERINGS."

Thanks for teaching me something neat. I didn't recognize the similarity of these 2 verses. I knew that the 144,000 were part of the Bride because "they are VIRGINS...the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:4,5).

The Bride group is complete with the arrival in Heaven of the 144,000. Next on the agenda of that 1st day of the Millennium is the "marriage of the Lamb" (Rev. 19:7). Your recognizing that these voices are both of the Bride wraps this all up in a neat package. May God bless you greatly. Agape

Incoming email

how do you feel about america being the great economic babylon destroyed in Revelation 18? This theory is by Cutting Edge Ministry...David Bay

My reply

To me, Rev. 17 is about "that great CITY," Vatican City, not a nation. How would one tie in "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH" with anything but the Tower of Babel and the line of Pontifex Maximus's that have come down to the present Pontifex Maximus of Vatican City? Rome is called the seven-hilled city.

I think Vatican CITY will be moved during the Tribulation to literal Babylon CITY in Iraq. Zech. 5:10,11 says, "Whither do these bear the ephah (largest wheat measure, i.e., world church)? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there (in the CITY of Rev. 18, Babylon) upon her own base" (the Tower of Babel).

Gen. 11:1-4 says, "the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of SHINAR; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us A CITY (Babylon) AND A TOWER (Tower of Babel), whose top may reach unto heaven (lit., whose top the heavens); and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

Gen. 11:4 (Webster) says, "they said, come, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose TOP MAY REACH TO HEAVEN; and let us make us a name, lest we should be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

This tower was a seven-stepped ziggurat. As I understand it, the black lower stage represented Saturn. Ascending stages of different colors represented Jupiter, Mars, Earth, Venus, Mercury and the Sun. Nimrod and his son Tammuz were worshipped as the Sun god. Semiramis and Tammuz were worshipped as Madonna and Child. This is Satan's counterfeit religion that got mixed with Christianity when Constantine issued the Edict of Toleration and made Christianity the state religion. This brought pagans into the Christian church.

It is evident that Satan planned this from the beginning. Instead of having Saturn (which I think is Heaven) on top, he put it as far away as he could and made the Sun the top. He reversed the order.

According to Josephus, these are the same heavenly bodies represented by the candlestick. The western light was always to be kept burning because it represented the Sun. Saturn was the eastern light. Satan takes truth and twists it, then embellishes it with lies.

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