Pro and Con 791

Posted 8-13-01

"Orient House Was Espionage Center"
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=7916
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Terror Strikes Haifa Suburb
http://israelnationalnews.com/
An Arab terrorist, apparently a suicide bomber, walked into the Wall Street Cafe in Kiryat Motzken near Haifa just after 5:00 PM, and detonated a powerful explosive
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Israeli Tanks Invade West Bank http://www.rense.com/general12/westd.htm

Incoming e-mail

I am appauled at the content, just on your website alone where there is evidence you have added things to the bible that just aren't there.

You say heaven is the planet Saturn. I guess thats justified by Gen 1:1 You say the asteroid belt is whats left of Satans planted Rehab. Ok....I guess (at least in theory) puny mankind has the ability to reach out and touch not only heaven (Saturn) but hell (the asteroid belt) and all from a spacecraft without dying? Yeah.

Now I agree that Rev says a burning mountain will crash into the sea and make the waters bitter as well as killing a third of this and that; but PLEASE tell me how in the world you get that this mountain will fall at NOON into the Medditeranian sea and on which day during the tribulation it arrives? All from Revelation? You put Miss terriot cards and wizards to shame with that kind of foresight.

Now the real kicker is that after doing what the bible says cannot humanly be done - Knowing the day of the rapture, you repeatedly make the same mistake year in and year out. The rapture is simultaineous with the second coming. We are not going to escape tribulation, the bible says we must go through tribulation. Since this generation knows nothing about suffering and dying for ones faith I guess we merrit an imaginary escape based on our good works. The disciples didn't escape - they suffered a great deal before dying. I guess we are more "sanctified and holy than the disciples and thus merrit a great escape?

We merrit nothing..thats the mercy of GRACE. Daniel was told he would take his rest until the end of days at which time he would be resurrected and have his part in the restoration of Israel and as Jesus takes his place as King. It didn't say Daniel would rest until seven years prior to the inaugeration and watch all hell break loose on earth from heaven. THOSE WORDS ARE NOWHERE TO BE FOUND AND IT IS SURELY A THORN IN YOUR SIDE. You have also violated Jesus' last words that made a warning to anyone who dares to ADD unto ot TAKE AWAY from the words of the HOLY BIBLE.

I do give you credit that you are a very good novelist and you can write your way into or out of most any scenareo that could possibly occur. I have also noticed when you are faced with any arguments or rebuff rather that distinct - to the point replys you launch into several pages of mis-interpretation and rambling. Almost to the point of a rage of sorts. May God help you before real persecution begins and you loose your faith since you didn't escape.

My reply

> > on your website alone where there is evidence you have added things to the bible that just aren't there.

I haven't added to or subtracted from Scripture. I would be deathly afraid to do such. When I put two and two together, I give my OPINION ONLY. I am not a prophet. I had prayed to understand Scripture, all the deep things, everything, and had asked the Lord what he wanted me to do. I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It said, "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not." I am doing my best to do what I think God wants me to do.

> > You say heaven is the planet Saturn.

You are welcome to your own opinion, but I'll give you some of the reasons I think Saturn is Heaven. Paul was "caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN" (II Cor. 12:2). The word translated "caught up" there is "harpazo" in the Greek, exactly the way the Pre-Trib Rapture is described in I Thess. 4:16. The third heaven from Earth is (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter and (3) Saturn.

In Eze. 1 and 10, Ezekiel had visions of the heavens. In 1:1, he said, "the HEAVENS WERE OPENED, AND I SAW VISIONS OF GOD." After describing the 4 terrestrial planets orbiting in concentric circles around the central Sun, "a fire infolding itself" (1:4), he saw "the likeness of the firmament (expanse of space)...over their heads above" (1:22). The terrestrial planets are Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. This planet is farther out in space than Mars. V. 26 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads was THE LIKENESS OF A THRONE, AS THE APPEARANCE OF A SAPPHIRE STONE: AND UPON THE LIKENESS OF THE THRONE WAS THE LIKENESS AS THE APPEARANCE OF A MAN ABOVE UPON IT." This "man" is both "GOD" (1:1) AND "MAN," i.e., Jesus Christ.

Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. Not only is Saturn the third heaven in II Cor. 12:2, in Eze. 28:13, the "SAPPHIRE" is the 7th stone of the gem stones that stand for the planets. Seven is God's number of perfection. In 28:16, Satan, the guarding cherub, is to be cast "as profane out of the mountain of God" (Saturn). He is also to be destroyed from "the midst of the stones of fire" (Eze. 28:16). Rahab was in the midst of the planets. It is now our Asteroid Belt. (It is not hell. That is the center of the Earth, the bottomless pit.)

Josephus, a Pharisee priest, said that the candlestick represented the planets including the Sun (Ant. III.VII. 7; Wars. V. V. 5). In order, west to east, they are (1) Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter, and (7) Saturn. This explains why the western lamp was to always be kept lit. It represented the Sun. Saturn is the last of the naked-eye planets.

In Eze. 1:28 we find out that "As the appearance of the BOW that is in the cloud in the day of RAIN, so was the appearance of the BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT." Saturn has 7 rings as the rainbow has the 7 colors of the spectrum.

Ezekiel "heard a voice of one that spake" in Eze. 1:28. In 2:4 we find out that this is "the Lord GOD." After the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 4:2,3 says, "one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone (the first and last stones in the breastplate, as Christ is the first and the last, Rev. 1:17; 22:13) and THERE WAS A RAINBOW ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE, in sight like unto an emerald (stone of Judah in the breastplate).

Heaven is "as dusty earth." Job 38:37,38 (LXX) says, "who is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has BOWED THE HEAVEN...For it is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, AND I HAVE CEMENTED IT AS ONE HEWN STONE TO ANOTHER." Christ's throne is "AS THE SUN" and "AS THE MOON" (i.e., it's a sphere in our solar system). Psa. 89:36,37 says, "His seed shall endure for ever, and HIS THRONE AS THE SUN before me. It shall be established for ever AS THE MOON, and as a faithful witness (and therefore visible) IN HEAVEN."

I don't think we will need spacecraft to get to Heaven. God has more power than puny man. When Daniel was praying, it only took the angel about 5 minutes to get there.

> > PLEASE tell me how in the world you get that this mountain will fall at NOON into the Medditeranian sea and on which day during the tribulation it arrives?

I try to put the Bible reference there every time I mention that the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 falls into the Mediterranean Sea at noon. Zeph. 2:3-5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD's anger (the Second Coming is 7 months later, Eze. 39:12,13). For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of THE SEA COAST." If you look at a map of Israel, you will see that these cities are on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. Rev. 8:8 says, "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into THE SEA." To Israel, "the sea" or "the great sea" refers to the one that is Israel's western border. The eastern sea is the Dead Sea.

The asteroid falls on the day of destruction that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty shall it come." It is the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1. Joel 2:1,2 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand. A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." Gog's united nations army is attacking Israel. The asteroid impact kills all but 1/6th of his forces (Eze. 39:2).

Christ will return on the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year, Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21), 7 months after the day of destruction. During these 7 months, the Jews bury the dead to cleanse the land for Christ's return (Eze. 39:12,13).

> > The rapture is simultaineous with the second coming.

To me, that seems unlikely. I Thess. 5:9 says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." The day of the asteroid impact is the day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:18-20). The Jews must bury the dead 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13) to cleanse the land before the Second Advent, when Christ comes in glory.

Rest assured, I am writing calmly and without rage of any sort. I would like to help you understand, if that is possible.

> > May God help you before real persecution begins and you loose your faith since you didn't escape.

Nothing, not even death, could break my faith. As for escaping, I'll let the Lord tell you about that. You can believe it or throw it out.

I'll quote God's word about those that will NOT ESCAPE and about those that will be found worthy TO ESCAPE.

In the following, the BRETHREN are believers that WILL ESCAPE. "THEY" are unbelievers that "SHALL NOT ESCAPE." I Thess. 5:1-6 says, "of the times and the seasons, BRETHREN, YE have no need that I write unto YOU. For YOURSELVES know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD (time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture) so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE. But YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let US not sleep, as do others; but let US watch and be sober."

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass (in the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture). This group of saints is seen in Heaven before the first seal is broken to start the Tribulation (Rev. 5:9; 6:1f). I want to be in that group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They will be "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10). That great multitude that is caught up out of the Great Tribulation are not said to be kings and priests, but they "serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15). No wonder Rev. 3:11 says, "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Those of the Pre-Trib Rapture have crowns.

Psa. 124:6,7 says, "Blessed be the LORD, who hath not given US as a prey to THEIR teeth. OUR SOUL IS ESCAPED as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and WE ARE ESCAPED."

Psa. 91:1-6 says, "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall DELIVER THEE from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the DESTRUCTION THAT WASTETH AT NOONDAY."

Isa. 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, VANISHES, ESCAPES), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (acaph, gathered, removed, taken up, i.e.,at the Pre-Trib Rapture), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY (acaph, taken up) FROM THE EVIL (TRIBULATION) TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither (the Tribulation is near), ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore."

I am not really a good novelist. I deal better with facts than fiction. I am more like a detective, putting the clues together to solve a mystery.

When our daughter was walking home from Jr. High, a Senior at the High School tried to get her into his car. After that, he called her with obscene phone calls until midnight every night. Her boyfriend had just left her to go to his house. That was a lucky break for he was still close by and knew exactly what kind of a car that was. A detective tried to find the boy or car--no luck.

As it turned out, I found out where he lived. One night, it was so foggy that I had almost hit the curb on the left side of the street at a familiar intersection as I went home after a PTA meeting. I thought to myself, "I bet he might not have been able to get his car into the garage last night." At 6 AM, before Ed left for work at 7, I started driving all around the area, and sure enough, he had parked on the street. The car was distinctive.

The police arrested him. He had been in the same kind of trouble in Michigan, and was after that when he got fired from a job because of making obscene phone calls at work. We saw that in the paper. Therapy did not help him. A neighbor kindly took our daughter to and from school until we could get me a car. No more walking home from school. That took her just a few blocks from his house. He didn't get to graduate with his class, either. Agape

From 5doves site

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2001/caps86-1.htm
From: CAPS - "THE DAY OF THE LORD AS A "THIEF""

In some previous posts between Marilyn Agee and myself there was a difference of opinion about the use of the term and phrase "a THIEF in the night." Marilyn believes that this is referring to the coming of the wrath of God either at the start of the millennium or a few months before that time. She does not believe it applies to the coming of the Lord for the Church as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. I believe that this term as used in the New Testament, especially in Paul's epistles and in Revelation, ALWAYS refers to the START OF THE tribulation period immediately following the Rapture. Therefore the Day of the Lord would include the tribulation period as well as the following millennium. The Day of the Lord would therefore consist of the Start of the tribulation period and include the millennium. The way Paul uses this term is different from the way Old Testament prophets used it. The reason is really simple. The prophets in the O.T. saw this day from the perspective of the nation of Israel. The church was a mystery to them. In the New Testament, the term is used primarily from the perspective of the Church. Also, if the tribulation period is a time period that is NOT part of the 6000 years, nor a part of the 1000 year millennium, then the usage of the term in the OLD TESTAMENT verses the NEW TESTATMENT, would not really contradict since the period of the tribulation is a JUDGEMENT PERIOD, and therefore not a part of "time." Marilyn quoted some verses in Rev. 16:14,15,&16 which say this:

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

On the surface reading verse 15 seems to say that during the time that the armies are gathered to the battle of Armegeddon, that this is when Jesus comes as THIEF. However, in my opinion that is not the case. Here is why. The writer of Revelation "expects" that the reader will have already read the first part of the book. In chapters 2&3 there are given critical clues to the descriptions of the CHURCH and its conditions. Without noticing these descriptions of the CHURCHES the reader is left to assume things.......such as the above assumption in chapter 16.

Does Jesus come as a thief to both the Church at the Rapture and at the end of the tribulation period? No way. A thief comes unexpectedly. Again and again I have pointed out that with the world in upheaval and major portions of the population destroyed that the 2nd coming in power COULD NOT BE AS A THIEF !

In Rev. 16:15 Jesus again says " I come as a THIEF. " But notice the REST of the verse . "Blessed is he who WATCHES.. and keeps his GARMENTS.....lest he walks NAKED and they see his SHAME."

All of the above descriptive language is found in chapters 2 & 3 when DESCRIBING THE CHURCH. Here are the verses which show this in Revelation ch. 3:
3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
3:17 Because thou sayest *, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. Notice the words and concepts being discussed in RED are the SAME as in Rev. 16:15. Notice the words THIEF, WATCHING, GARMENTS, NAKED, & SHAME.

Since the book is written primarily to the CHURCHES, it is not suprising to see that , even in the context of the battle of Armegeddon, that a WARNING IS INSERTED TO THE CHURCH , in order to perhaps further WARN of the NEED TO BE READY FOR THE RAPTURE...

In this sense the book is written as if a WARNING to the CHURCHES and also as an INVITATION to unbelievers. For example, notice Rev. 22:16,17 : 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This shows that the book was written primaily to the CHURCHES. The sections of the book that would not involve the Churches are nevertherless warnings to being left behind at the Rapture.

Other verses that use the term "thief" of "thief in the night" that apply to the Rapture are:
Mt 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(This verse would seem to include the coming as a thief and the eventual destruction of the world as we now know it, before the New Heavens and the New earth. Or, it could be indicating that the Day of the Lord will come with SUDDEN DESTRUCTION, perhaps with the use of nuclear weapons, of which the phrase re "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" could be a reference.)

Re 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

In conclusion, the "coming as a thief" is in reference to those in the Church (not watching) as well as to Unbelievers. It is definitely not in reference to the 2nd coming in power---which will not be as a thief. In fact, the armies gather ahead of time to fight Jesus as He is returning at that time. Till then, CAPS

My reply

> > "a THIEF in the night." Marilyn believes that this is referring to the coming of the wrath of God either at the start of the millennium or a few months before that time. She does not believe it applies to the coming of the Lord for the Church as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. I believe that this term as used in the New Testament, especially in Paul's epistles and in Revelation, ALWAYS refers to the START OF THE tribulation period immediately following the Rapture. Therefore the Day of the Lord would include the tribulation period as well as the following millennium.

I Thess. 5:2 says, "yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. II Peter 3:10 says, "THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, IN THE WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP." There is no way that this day could be "the START OF THE tribulation." It is the Day of Destruction in which the False Prophet will be deposed from office. It is when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth.

I'd like to clarify what I believe. The millennial Day of the Lord will begin with the Day of God's Wrath, the Day of Destruction that precedes the Second Advent by exactly 7 Jewish months. The Pre-Trib Rapture precedes the Tribulation. The Pre-Wrath Rapture precedes the outpouring of God's Wrath on the first day of the Millennium. After that, the Jews will bury the dead for 7 months to cleanse the land for Christ's return in glory at the Second Advent. The New Testament is just as clear as the Old Testament, that the millennial Day of the Lord begins with the Day of Destruction.

OT - Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for THE DAY (first day of the Millennium)! for THE DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) IS AT HAND, AND AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY SHALL IT COME" (first day).
NT - I Thess. 5:2,3 says, "that THE DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) SO COMETH (first day) AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. FOR WHEN THEY SHALL SAY, PEACE AND SAFETY, THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh."

The shortened Tribulation is "the ends of the world (aionos, ages)" (I Cor. 10:11). It is not part of the millennial Day of the Lord. When this age ends (6th seal), the Millennium will begin (7th seal). Rev. 6:12-15 says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME." The 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. Out of it come the 7 trumpet judgments that will hit Earth on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the 1000-year Day of the Lord.

Rev. 6:. Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." During the Tribulation the whole world will be tried. Judgment will come. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmos, TRIAL), WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The Tribulation is the "ENDS" of all three 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews (Dan. 9:27), and the Age of the Church. They will run together during the Tribulation and end together in a photofinish.

The millennial Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. The first day of the Millennium will be a day like no other. In Heaven, there will be the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, and the Judgment Seat of Christ. On Earth, it is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Day of God's Wrath, the day of Jacob's trouble, and the day of destruction. It will take place exactly 7 Jewish months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). Only in a Jewish Leap Year are there 7 months between Tishri 1 (the Feast of Trumpets, day of judgment) and Nisan 1 (beginning of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year, and Second Advent, so the millennial Day of the Lord starts on Tishri 1 in a Leap Year. I think the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord will be Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), and the Second Advent will be on Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008) (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3).

Since the Millennium starts with the Day of Destruction, It can't start with the Pre-Trib Rapture or the beginning of the Tribulation. I Thess. 5:1-6 says, "But of the times and the seasons, BRETHREN, YE have no need that I write unto YOU. For YOURSELVES know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) SO COMETH (first day) AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. FOR WHEN THEY SHALL SAY, PEACE AND SAFETY, THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE (in the Pre-Wrath Rapture on that same day). But YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that THAT DAY (first day of the Millennium) should overtake YOU as a thief. YE are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE ARE NOT OF THE NIGHT, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

> > Does Jesus come as a thief to both the Church at the Rapture and at the end of the tribulation period? No way. A thief comes unexpectedly. Again and again I have pointed out that with the world in upheaval and major portions of the population destroyed that the 2nd coming in power COULD NOT BE AS A THIEF !

I agree that at the Second Advent, Jesus will not come as a thief. However, he will come, to those who are not watching, as a thief at both Raptures. The Second Rapture is 7 months before the Second Advent. When the Pre-Trib Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), Jesus tells the churches, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I WILL COME ON THEE AS A THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev. 3:3). Notice the if clause. IF WE DO NOT WATCH, he will come on us as a thief, and we will not know the hour of his coming. IF WE DO WATCH, he will not come on us as a thief, and we will know the hour of his coming.

Mt. 24:41-44 says of the Pre-Trib Rapture, the first of two Days of the Son of Man (Lu. 17:22,25), "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house (minister of the church) had known in what watch THE THIEF WOULD COME, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up (some caught up, others left behind). Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Therefore, it is up to us whether Christ comes on us as a thief at the first Rapture or not.

Mt. 25:13 says to the foolish virgins who get left behind, "Watch therefore, for ye (the foolish virgins) know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." These will be caught up in the second Day of the Son of Man. This Pre-Wrath Rapture will be as the days of Lot. Luke 17:28-30 says, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30). This Pre-Wrath Rapture will be on the Day of Destruction, but before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is between the 6th and 7th seals.

Rev. 16:15 is when Christ comes as a thief at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. He says, "Behold, I COME AS A THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." This coming has to be in the Tribulation, for the unclean spirits come "out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet" (Rev. 16:13).

At the time of the Second Rapture, the Second Advent is still 7 Jewish months away (Eze. 39:12,13). Jesus does not come as a thief at the Second Advent. At that time, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).

So Jesus can come as a thief at both the first and last Raptures, but only to those that are not watching. To those that are watching, he will not come on them as a thief. Agape Note: Joel 2:31 says, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come." This darkness comes at the 6th seal (Rev. 6:12), just before the "great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). Amos 5:18,20 says, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light....Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Zeph. 1:14-17 says, "The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD."

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