Pro and Con 794

Posted 8-18-01

Moon younger than thought
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1493000/1493095.stm
8-15-01 - A huge impact created the Moon
The simulation, the most sophisticated yet, sees a Mars-sized body hitting the almost fully-formed Earth around 4.5 billion years ago, ejecting debris which then formed the Moon.

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Check this out.
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Study Details Crash That Created Moon
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b7c6c932c43.htm
Aug. 16 Computer simulations gave new life on Wednesday to a theory that has intrigued astronomers for years: the idea that one big collision between the Earth and a Mars-sized planet gave birth to the moon.

The so-called "giant impact" theory was first envisioned in the 1970s, but now scientists at the Southwest Research Institute and the University of California-Berkeley have put together a scenario that would account for the moon's creation, as well as the fact that a day on Earth is 24 hours long....

The new research, presented in the current edition of the journal Nature, postulates an enormously energetic but oblique crash between Earth and a planet the size of Mars, which is about half Earth's size.

The energy unleashed by this collision some 4.5 billion years ago would have been enough to destroy the incoming planet and melt Earth all the way through, Canup said. There would also have been some vaporized rock debris kicked up from the crash, which would start orbiting Earth.

"Once the orbiting debris cooled, it's from that stuff that the moon then coalesced," Canup said. The whole process, from collision to formation of the moon, took less than 100 years...

The glancing angle of the collision, perhaps 40 degrees or so, caused Earth to start spinning, Canup said, but much faster than it does now. In those early times, an Earth day would have lasted only five hours.

The moon was also thought to be much closer to Earth than it is now; in fact, the Earth and the moon continue to get more distant from each other by several inches (centimeters) a year, Canup said. As the moon moved away from Earth, Earth's rotation slowed, she said.

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FWD: The Two Witnesses
http://www.turningpointranch.org/Prophesy/The%20Two%20Witnesses.htm
...I'm wondering what you will say in the Pro's and Con's about it.

My reply

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the interesting things you send my way. Here are the main things that I differ on.

> > When Do The Two Witnesses Appear?
> > The Two Witnesses make their appearance on the world scene during the 6th Trumpet (2nd Woe) which occurs towards the latter part of the Seventh Seal.

I think the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11 appear on the scene as the Tribulation begins. They prophesy 1260 days, are killed by the Satan-possessed False Prophet Mid-Trib, are resurrected after 3.5 more days, then ascend to Heaven. Rev. 11:7 says, "when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Satan) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." Satan is cast out of Heaven Mid Trib. Rev. 12:9 says, "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 17:8 explains more. It says, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man at the time of the Rapture), and yet is" (exists).

The 6th trumpet judgment is on the Day of God's Wrath. If the 2 witnesses (martus, martyrs) were to come on that day, there wouldn't be 1260 days left for them to prophesy.

> > The Seventh Seal begins AFTER the 144,000 are sealed.

I agree, but there is not much time between the sealing and the destruction. Eze. 9:3-6 shows that the destruction comes right after the sealing. It says, "he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary."

> > Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) returns to earth at the end of this (3rd) Woe. (Rev. 19)

I don't expect Christ to return in glory on the day of destruction, the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3). The Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky that day, but according to Eze. 39:12,13, there will be 7 months yet before the Second Advent. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

> > The two cherubim were carved out of Two Olive Trees! This is exactly the term - Olive Trees - used in Rev. 11:4 and Zech. 4:3 to describe the Two Witnesses. The inevitable conclusion must be, that the Two Witnesses, who are also referred to as Two Olive Trees, must be the two archangels represented by the cherubim made of Olive Trees on either side of the ark of the covenant.

Psa. 99:1 says, "The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved." The cherubim are planets. In Eze. 1:15, "one wheel (is) upon the earth." This wheel is the Earth's orbit. Earth is one of the 4 terrestrial inner planets seen circling in concentric rings around the central Sun in Eze. 1. The Lord's throne is on a planet between 2 of the outer planets.

Zech. 4:11-14 gives us the clue we need to identify the two witnesses. It says that the two olive trees "are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah stood before the Lord of the whole earth at the Transfiguration. They are the two witnesses. In Rev. 11, we find them doing things that Moses and Elijah did before. Elijah prayed that it would not rain, and it didn't rain for 3.5 years. Moses was instrumental in bringing the plagues on Egypt.

Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

The word witnesses in Rev. 11:3 is martus, martyrs. The archangels are not said to be capable of dying. Man can die.

I wonder if Moses and Elijah will sit on either side of Christ. In Mt. 20:23, Jesus said, "to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

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Re: parallels
When Noah and Lot got their warning did they fall on any special day or were there any signs or wonders on those days that could be seen as a parallel to something which could happen in our day. Also, the Jewish leap years, do they have set times such as our leap years falling every four years.

My reply

Noah got a 120-year warning when told to build the Ark. He got a 7-day warning before entering the Ark when the Lord closed the door. That last warning would have been on Cheshvan 10 (Oct./Nov.). See Gen. 6, 7 and 8. Cheshvan is the 2nd month in the Jewish Civil Calendar. Their Regnal and Sacred Calendar did not start until the Exodus.

Their Calendar has a 19-year cycle. Leap years are year numbers 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19. Agape

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This is some interesting reading.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Kirk47K/THEBIGPICTURE/

My reply

His/her name may be Kirk (from the URL), but on the Web site, I can't find anywhere that he identifies himself or gives his e-mail address. Evidently, he is telling, but doesn't want any argument about it. I quit when he mentioned the "HEAVENLY SANCTUARY". That sounds to me like Seventh Day Adventist and Ellen G. White's teaching. Here are some excerpts and my comments marked ***. Emphasis is mine.

Re: Does the Bible teach a pre-trib Rapture?
> > While some have translated this word [apostasia] as "departing," and applied it to the rapture, this is quite a stretch and is a far cry from the meaning and context in which the Greek word APOSTASIA is used in other portions of scripture. {Acts 21:21}

*** Apostasia has the meaning of "depart from" in Acts 21:21. It says, "thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to FORSAKE (apostasia, depart from) MOSES (what they are departing from), saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." The Rapture is departing from something else, Earth.

> > In my opinion, it is hard to imagine how anyone can get a "rapture" from the Greek word apostasia, which is otherwise used in scripture as meaning to abandon, forsake, (or DEPART FROM) a certain doctrine, belief, or practice (in this case, circumcision and the law of Moses) and is the source of the English word apostasy. > > This simply goes against all the rules of accurate biblical interpretation and the clear meaning of the original Greek text....

*** This author understands that "apostasia" in Acts 21:21 means "depart from", yet can't see that "he apostasia" in II Thess. 2:3 means THE DEPARTURE. It is similar to catching a plane to another city. I could DEPART FROM Los Angeles, but the act of taking off would be THE DEPARTURE. At the Rapture, we will depart from Earth. This physical taking off is THE DEPARTURE.

***When the Greek of the Bible says "THE" something, we probably have been introduced to it previously and should be able to identify it. The Greek of II Thess. 2:3 says "he apostasia" and is talking about THE departure that we were introduced to previously in I Thess. 4:13-18--the Rapture.

***In Green's Interlinear, under the Greek words, I Thess. 4:17 says, "then we the living who remain, together with them SHALL BE CAUGHT AWAY" (HARPAGESOMETHA) in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air." This catching away in the clouds is THE DEPARTURE that we read about in II Thess. 2;3.

> > The main point is that a careful and thorough examination of these scriptures clearly proves the traditional pre-trib rapture doctrine to be in great error, and that what Paul is actually saying has been largely misunderstood by the majority of the church.

*** I think the truth is the opposite, "that a careful and thorough examination of these scriptures clearly proves the traditional pre-trib rapture doctrine" is true.

*** The World English Bible (WEB) translates II Thess. 2:3 as "Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction." The translator understood what "he apostasia" meant.

*** A similar word is used in Mark 10:4. It says, "Moses suffered to write a bill of DIVORCEMENT (apostasiou), and to put her away." In a divorce, there is separation. One person is put away. That also is a departure.

> > It is then claimed that the "restrainer" Paul mentions is the Holy Spirit, which, of course, indwells the "church," and is removed when the church is raptured. > > But there's a major problem with this. Nowhere does it clearly identify the restrainer at all, let alone as the Holy Spirit, nor is there any other scripture in the entire Bible which might lend support to this interpretation. It is 100% pure speculation and assumption.

*** Who else BUT the indwelling Holy Spirit of God has the OVERRIDING POWER to restrain the appearance of "THE SON OF PERDITION...whose coming is after the working of SATAN with ALL POWER (Satan's) and signs and lying wonders" (2:3,9). Man alone doesn't have the power. Who else is there but God?

> > I do not think that there is any conclusive scriptural evidence to indicate that there will be a final seven year period which is preceded by the signing of a covenant with the "antichrist."

*** Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you SEVEN TIMES for your sins." A TIME in Rev. 12:6,14 is a year. That SEVEN YEARS is the 5th cycle of discipline for Israel.

> > it was the Messiah who "stopped the sacrifices," or "caused them to cease" in the "midst of the week" by fulfilling the law and sealing this covenant with his own blood....

*** That doesn't make sense to me. The "people" of Christ were Jews. The Jews did not "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (Dan. 9:26). The Romans under the leadership of Titus did....

> > Scriptures which apply to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, are applied to the "antichrist," and the result is that people believe that the "antichrist" will sign a treaty with Israel for seven years and will enter the Temple in Jerusalem, stop the animal sacrifices, and proclaim himself to be God at the mid-point of the seven years.

***These have to be applied to a Roman, because the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and burned the temple in 70 AD. The Jews didn't.

> > I do not think that there is any conclusive scriptural evidence to indicate that there will be a final seven year period which is preceded by the signing of a covenant with the "antichrist."...
> > Christ does not elaborate on the nature of the abomination of desolation in Matthew, and makes no mention of any sacrifices at all. In chapter eight of Daniel, the scriptures seem to be making a very clear reference to THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY, heavenly hosts, (angels) and the sacrifices in heaven, rather than to the temple, human beings, or sacrifices on earth.

*** The tell-tale "HEAVENLY SANCTUARY" reminds me of the Seventh Day Adventists and the writings of Ellen G. White. The words "heavenly sanctuary" do not appear in the Bible. This author must have been listening to the wrong teachings.

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Re: Pre/trib - pre/wrath
God bless you for all your wonderful, insightful and inspired prophecy research. I was in the mood to read your home page again about all the constellations and got down to "Christ's vantage point in Revelation - 10 days before the Rapture".

I notice that you haven't really commented much on this in a while.

I was reading the paragraph before, titled "When "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" and noticed a possible typing error - not major, just a pre-trib which I think should be pre-wrath. I would ignore it, but it may confuse a less well read first-time prophecy reader......and I thought I would let you know. I've bolded the info bits. (they lost that by the time I got this)

...In these latter days, one 40-year generation + another 120 days from Iyar 28, 5727 (when the temple area was regained by Israel June 7, 1967) is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the day I think will be Christ's Coronation Day in Heaven. If so, it will also be the day of the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven. On Earth, that day is the end of the shortened Tribulation, the Day of God's Wrath, and the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. (I agree totally)

This may also be the the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture (I think this should be Pre-Wrath). We may avoid the beginning of the Tribulation (Now you are again referring to the Pre-Trib rapture) by being caught up the night before the peace covenant is confirmed. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, they are caught up sometime between 6:00 PM, when Tishri 1 begins (Rev. 6:17), and noon, when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts Earth (Zeph. 2:4,5). It may be similar for us.

I don't mean in any way to be critical - but you were still referring to the Pre-Wrath rapture in the previous paragraph, relating to Tishri 1.

Bill Koenig has posted a very interesting bit of info about Psalm 83 - I receive the e-mail version before it goes onto his website. I've pasted it below for your interest. I don't entirely agree with his prediction that these recent observations conclude that the Gog and Magog invasion as prophesied in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with Russia as a key protagonist is more likely connected to the final war of Armageddon. Armaggedon comes after Gog and Magog - but I would love to hear your sensible explanation again sometime.....

Have a truly blessed day and I will continue to pray for you. Agape

My reply

> > Christ's vantage point in Revelation - 10 days before the Rapture". I notice that you haven't really commented much on this in a while.

What I comment on is usually triggered by the e-mail I receive.

Thanks for your kind words, prayers and for telling me of my mistake. I didn't realize it wasn't clear what I meant. I changed it as follows:
"On Earth, that day is the end of the shortened Tribulation, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Day of God's Wrath, and the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

"Since Tishri 1 is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Tishri 1 could also be the the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture."

> > I don't entirely agree with his prediction that these recent observations conclude that the Gog and Magog invasion as prophesied in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with Russia as a key protagonist is more likely connected to the final war of Armageddon. Armaggedon comes after Gog and Magog - but I would love to hear your sensible explanation again.

Well, that's better than before the Pre-Trib Rapture. In things I see on the Internet, that war in Eze. 38 keeps cropping up in various places, even before the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is like the huge seeping-gas bubbles in the oily water near the Brea Tar Pits in LA. You never know just where the next one will appear or just when it will burp.

For me, I just don't see how before the Tribulation would be possible, seeing that the worldwide earthquake destroys every wall in Eze. 38:20. In verse 18, God's fury comes up in his face. In 19, his wrath is mentioned, and the earthquake begins. In 20 all the men on the face of the Earth shake and every wall falls. Rev. 16:19 tells us that the cities of the nations will fall. That fits with every wall falling. Gog's army attacking Israel brings the wrath of God, and the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth, turning it upside down. This will be worldwide catastrophe. Isa 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth EMPTY, and maketh it WASTE, and turneth it UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."

Eze 38:18-23 says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely IN THAT DAY there shall be a GREAT SHAKING in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5), and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE (paniym, face) OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE AT MY PRESENCE (paniym, FACE, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground....22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the EYES of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Men on the FACE of the Earth will shake when they see Christ's FACE. They will say to "the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17,17).

There are 7 Jewish months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent. Eze. 39:11-13 says, "11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. 12 And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

Armageddon can't take place until after Christ and his army of saints are on Earth. Armageddon pits Satan's forces against Christ's army. Bob Thieme, Jr. says that each one of us will bump one demon then. We'll see if he is right before too long. Agape

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Re: another question
God Bless!! please be patient with me

You say on your site...
> > "The Tribulation saints are those "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, an tongues" in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. They are caught up between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8)."

In Rev. 6:9, where it says in part..."I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain"...

- are these the ones you are saying are 'caught up'?
- or are they to be martyred first?
- or is there a trumpet and a Rapture as in the first Rapture and they will be caught up alive as the Wise ones in the Pre-Trib rapture?

I think I am confused with 2 raptures/2 trumpets or whatever. I was never taught about 2 raptures and I can't seem to reconcile going up '2 times'. :o) I DO understand about the Tribulation Saints, but was taught those would be the ones who NEVER heard the Gospel and are given a second chance during the tribulation and then are martyred for their faith. tks so much

My reply

The martyrs, alive, thinking, talking, hearing and resting in Heaven when the 5th seal is broken, have had their earthly bodies killed for the word of God. This is during the Great Tribulation. They want to know how much longer it will be till the judgment when they will be avenged. The day of the Judgment Seat of Christ is not far away, but they are to "rest yet for a little season." There will still be more martyrs. The Judgment will come when the 7th seal is broken. Just before the wrath of God falls on Earth the day the 7th seal is broken, I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place. As the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52) sounds, the martyrs will get their resurrection bodies along with the living ones that are caught up to Heaven that day.

It seems that most of the Bride of Christ are the wise Philadelphian virgins that are caught up at the first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). However, there are 144,000 Israelites that seem to be added to the Bride group at the "last trump," because they too are "virgins," "firstfruits" and "are without fault before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:3-5).

I believe they are sealed just before the 2nd Rapture takes place, not at the beginning of the Tribulation. Eze. 9:4-6 says, "the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, GO YE AFTER HIM through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary." The Rapture will take place, then the Wrath of God will fall on the unbelievers left on Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).

The foolish virgins that get left behind at the 1st Rapture will be caught up at the 2nd Rapture. However, some of them will probably be martyred. Agape

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From Jim Bramlett
On the Five Doves site today, Ted Porter has a fascinating post which, if true, has profound prophetic implications. An excerpt is below.
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September 22, 2001, 7:04 PM EDT - End of 6000 years?

It bears witness to C.A.L. Totten, a relatively well respected Biblical chronologist, who in a book he wrote in 1891, called "Joshua's Long Day and the Dial of Ahaz" points out changes in the times and seasons that has resulted in our calendar getting ahead of true time by 1 3/4 years. The Romans are responsible for pushing it ahead from September to March when the new era began as the 1st year of Rome and Parliament in 1752 got ahead 3 months when they made the start of the year January. And Abbot Dionysius Exiguns lost a year by starting at 1 instead of 0 A.D. Let us watch.

"Who commandeth the Sun and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars." Job 9:7

Ted Porter
From http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2001/tedp88.htm

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